Nissan Leaf Motor test with DIY controller

[okashira]

Cool, thanks.
I need to get measuring the spark ev motor. I am afraid how low it might be

What voltage does it run?

I would not worry

Same 400V. But should be good for 800V I think

 

[Arlo1]

Cool, thanks.
I need to get measuring the spark ev motor. I am afraid how low it might be

What voltage does it run?

I would not worry

Same 400V. But should be good for 800V I think

Why would you try to run such high voltage? The lower the better.

You can use some feild weakening to make up for the voltage.

If you go for 800v I would be SUPER careful that's kill me now kill me later voltage.

I'm working towards running everything at 102v nominal.!

 

[okashira]

Well I won't be rewinding this motor. :-D at 100V it would only hit like 800RPM, haha.

At 350V, torque starts to drop at like 1700 RPM.
With 800V, we hope for 400+ hp potential
But yeah, the voltage is a big concern

 

[Arlo1]

The OEMs reduce phase current as rpm increases to save the battery so get a KV measurement and do the math. You might be surprised.

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Bowser, no updates from my beta testers. The one with the Leaf motor is getting little details worked out like ordering a hall effect throttle. Well, one update from my beta tester in Canada. He's gotten his controller up to 360amp (phase current). He has it hooked up, fighting a big AC motor against a DC motor. He'll be visiting my house down here in Arizona today. I'm building him a 1400amp 350vDC controller, so he can properly test the AC controller on that dyno setup. I already have 3 beta testers with the DC controller, and it has worked great for the last couple years. I can't believe it has already been 2 years, and I haven't done anything beyond the 3 beta testers. Oh well.

The neat thing is, the power section for the AC and DC controllers are IDENTICAL. Even down to the 3 phase cables and 3 individual current sensors, and 3 individual hardware overcurrent circuits (one for each IGBT module. you can't assume that just because the IGBTs are paralleled, that they are passing the same currents). The only difference is, you hook all 3 phase cables together, and attach it to the DC motor. A cool trick is to make the 3 "phase" cables a few feet long in the case of the DC motor controller. It forces the IGBT modules to current share better.

So, you just plug a DC board into the 3 600v 600amp IGBT modules and drive a DC motor at 1400amp 350vDC, or you plug the AC board into them and drive an AC motor with about 350vDC 400ampRMS.

I have the perfect capacitor for an 800v 600ampRMS controller:
http://www.sbelectronics.com/product/power-ring-777d114-1500-uf-900-vdc-ul-recognized/

One of those, and 3 1200v 800amp half bridges would be awesome.

 

[okashira]

Bowser, no updates from my beta testers. The one with the Leaf motor is getting little details worked out like ordering a hall effect throttle. Well, one update from my beta tester in Canada. He's gotten his controller up to 360amp (phase current). He has it hooked up, fighting a big AC motor against a DC motor. He'll be visiting my house down here in Arizona today. I'm building him a 1400amp 350vDC controller, so he can properly test the AC controller on that dyno setup. I already have 3 beta testers with the DC controller, and it has worked great for the last couple years. I can't believe it has already been 2 years, and I haven't done anything beyond the 3 beta testers. Oh well.

The neat thing is, the power section for the AC and DC controllers are IDENTICAL. Even down to the 3 phase cables and 3 individual current sensors, and 3 individual hardware overcurrent circuits (one for each IGBT module. you can't assume that just because the IGBTs are paralleled, that they are passing the same currents). The only difference is, you hook all 3 phase cables together, and attach it to the DC motor. A cool trick is to make the 3 "phase" cables a few feet long in the case of the DC motor controller. It forces the IGBT modules to current share better.

So, you just plug a DC board into the 3 600v 600amp IGBT modules and drive a DC motor at 1400amp 350vDC, or you plug the AC board into them and drive an AC motor with about 350vDC 400ampRMS.

I have the perfect capacitor for an 800v 600ampRMS controller:
http://www.sbelectronics.com/product/power-ring-777d114-1500-uf-900-vdc-ul-recognized/

One of those, and 3 1200v 800amp half bridges would be awesome.

YEssir, but I just may use one of their kits with the bus bar as well. Depends if I get time to do design work
First lower voltage ... and lots of learning

 

[okashira]

The OEMs reduce phase current as rpm increases to save the battery so get a KV measurement and do the math. You might be surprised.

You might be right about the inductance too. Apparently GM goes to trapezoidal commutation on the Bolt motor at certain rpm/torque. LOL

The Bolt motor is BLDC!! haha

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Here's the Nissan Leaf motor guy getting his home made dune buggy race car running! He's using 200v worth of a Chevy volt battery pack, and had set the phase current to 300amp peak for this test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUioVe_Z8is&feature=youtu.be

 

[okashira]

Here's the Nissan Leaf motor guy getting his home made dune buggy race car running! He's using 200v worth of a Chevy volt battery pack, and had set the phase current to 300amp peak for this test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUioVe_Z8is&feature=youtu.be

Awesome Paul!! You guys are going to transform the DiY EV community

 

[oatnet]

Here's the Nissan Leaf motor guy getting his home made dune buggy race car running! He's using 200v worth of a Chevy volt battery pack, and had set the phase current to 300amp peak for this test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUioVe_Z8is&feature=youtu.be

Nice! Build thread?

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Andrew is one of those rural farm types that can build just about anything, and just does stuff, and all of a sudden, a whole car is built and I have no idea how he did it. haha

 

[Bowser330]

Updates please!

Did the test at 300a heat up the motor?
Did he have a liquid cooling system connected?

Leaf motors on eBay can be found for $1000. If this controller can be put together for $1500 the system would be more than 3x cheaper than any other brushless system out there today.

400v 300a 120kw output for $2500

By comparison the hpevs ac35x2 system is $8750 for the 144v 500a model that outputs 120kw

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Man, I'm not getting updates to the thread. Sorry it took so long to get back. I just randomly checked today. I know the Leaf motor is very conservatively rated at 80kW continuous. I have been busy with my job, and I haven't heard from the Leaf guy (andrew) in a little while. My beta tester in Canada tested the controller to its hardware overcurrent trip point of 600amp (peak) phase current in this video. His is a 3/8" aluminum plate with no water cooling and no fins, so it heats up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dS1CPcZaec&feature=youtu.be

Also, the power of the controller (with liquid cooling) is conservatively 200kW. The RMS phase current could easily be 400amp. To see that, the peak phase current would be 400*sqrt(2) = 565amp, and that means that the RMS current of each IGBT would be 565/2 = 283amp (square waves, which are on average 50% duty). They are 600amp IGBTs so that's more than 50% derating. Now, assuming 400ampRMS current and battery pack of 400v the power would be:

power = line to neutral peak voltage * line to neutral peak current * 3/2 =
= battery pack /sqrt(3) * rms phase current*sqrt(2) * 3/2 = 196kW

I've heard that the peak power of the Leaf motor is more like 300kW. I think the controller could do close to 300kW for short accelerations. Well, let's see:
300kW = 400/sqrt(3) * rms phase current * sqrt(2) * 3/2
So, rms phase current = 3k/4*sqrt(3)/sqrt(2)*2/3 = 612amp.
So, peak phase current = 612 * sqrt(2) = 865amp, so the RMS current per IGBT would be 433amp. That's almost 2/3 derating still! So, I bet with water cooling you could do short 300kW accelerations with the leaf motor.

 

[Arlo1]

Hi Paul.

You are running square waves? I don't think the code is hard to do a clean sine wave with FOC.

Only 3 1/2 bridge igbts right What is their rating cold and hot for amperage? Remember they will the die and will be warm no matter how you cool the heat sink so I plan to be very conservative on this part. Also although those caps are very bad ass. I found if you want to run choppy power and lots of it you will need more cap otherwise it will over heat. I got the highest uf cap they make for 450v and have been testing with it up to 1700 amps it drains very fast!

I ask and I have never given my controller a rating.... When you want to sell something you can use the burst 1min or 30sec rating or you can use the continuous rating... most of the Very smart people call you out when you use anything but a continuous rating. I don't care either way I just like to know which one it is. I feel with good cooling mine will do 100kw or more continuous but for a burst it should be able to to up to 231kw with no field weakening 800amp max at 80 deg C (1200 amps at 25deg) on my igbts and 410v (112s charged to 470v but under load).

What are you going to run for a battery? I think you will find it sags a lot.

I chose 1200v rated parts to leave a buffer because my 112s battery fully charged is 470v.

I have posted from the data the continuous rating of the leaf motor with a good battery and a controller that can feed the power in at higher RPM will be ~250hp or ~ 185kw continuous this is at a higher rpm with little to no field weakening with a good stiff battery.

That's why I chose the path I did. I should have no problem running 250-300hp peak out of my system But I feel the controller will not run it continuous. I will be testing that soon.

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Well, the 6 pwms are square waves, but it all ends up looking like current sine waves due to the stator inductance. What is your switching frequency? For my DC controller I'm using spread spectrum 7-12kHz (it sounds like rushing water!). For the AC, I'm using 10KHz. According to the datasheet the cap can do 500amp continuous, which would be 200kW with a 400vDC bus. So far, it appears at high current that Id and Iq are tracking IdRef and IqRef very well.

 

[Arlo1]

I set mine up at 5khz. I chose that number because that's the number Nissan used and I designed mine to run up to 20khz but 5 is more efficient.

 

[okashira]

Well, the 6 pwms are square waves, but it all ends up looking like current sine waves due to the stator inductance. What is your switching frequency? For my DC controller I'm using spread spectrum 7-12kHz (it sounds like rushing water!). For the AC, I'm using 10KHz. According to the datasheet the cap can do 500amp continuous, which would be 200kW with a 400vDC bus. So far, it appears at high current that Id and Iq are tracking IdRef and IqRef very well.

Paul, the cap only needs to supply the ripple current, which is less then 500A. Real power is limited by a combination of many factors!
Arlo, to answer your q, Paul's controller is true FOC with sine wave.

 

[okashira]

I set mine up at 5khz. I chose that number because that's the number Nissan used and I designed mine to run up to 20khz but 5 is more efficient.

Interesting. We thought that Leaf used 10kHz. Do they go 6-step at high rpm or torque ?

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Okashira! haha Yes that's right. Have you ever just typed something without thinking first? I never do that. ever. lol.

 

[okashira]

Okashira! haha Yes that's right. Have you ever just typed something without thinking first? I never do that. ever. lol.

Never

 

[Arlo1]

Man, I'm not getting updates to the thread. Sorry it took so long to get back. I just randomly checked today. I know the Leaf motor is very conservatively rated at 80kW continuous. I have been busy with my job, and I haven't heard from the Leaf guy (andrew) in a little while. My beta tester in Canada tested the controller to its hardware overcurrent trip point of 600amp (peak) phase current in this video. His is a 3/8" aluminum plate with no water cooling and no fins, so it heats up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dS1CPcZaec&feature=youtu.be

Also, the power of the controller (with liquid cooling) is conservatively 200kW. The RMS phase current could easily be 400amp. To see that, the peak phase current would be 400*sqrt(2) = 565amp, and that means that the RMS current of each IGBT would be 565/2 = 283amp (square waves, which are on average 50% duty). They are 600amp IGBTs so that's more than 50% derating. Now, assuming 400ampRMS current and battery pack of 400v the power would be:

power = line to neutral peak voltage * line to neutral peak current * 3/2 =
= battery pack /sqrt(3) * rms phase current*sqrt(2) * 3/2 = 196kW

I've heard that the peak power of the Leaf motor is more like 300kW. I think the controller could do close to 300kW for short accelerations. Well, let's see:
300kW = 400/sqrt(3) * rms phase current * sqrt(2) * 3/2
So, rms phase current = 3k/4*sqrt(3)/sqrt(2)*2/3 = 612amp.
So, peak phase current = 612 * sqrt(2) = 865amp, so the RMS current per IGBT would be 433amp. That's almost 2/3 derating still! So, I bet with water cooling you could do short 300kW accelerations with the leaf motor.

Hi paul I was just looking at this to see if I work math the same way. And more or less I do. Other then 1 thing I have a problem with. You say each IGBT would be 565/2 = 283 amps then at the bottom you say each igbt would be 433 RMS for a 300kw setup. How do you arrive at this number? Are you running 6 half bridges? 2 in parallel per phase?

Its my understanding you do not want to try to run the peaks above the max DC current spec for the given temp you are running. What part number of IGBT are you using?

 

[Bowser330]

Updates Bump!

Any feedback available from the beta testers?

 

[MPaulHolmes]

I have been using these here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quantity-of-6-Powerex-CM600DY-12NF-IGBT-modules-600V-600A-NEW-IN-BOX-/281091938184

No info from beta testers. Hopefully soon I'll get metals fabbed and then I can offer kits to people. One neat thing is, I modified the code a little bit to find the "rotor flux angle" of the 3 phase grid, and tested it out on a 3 phase grid tie for my job. You could command current into the grid (analogous to pushing power into the motor) by twisting the throttle one way, and then "regen" from the grid, which results in charging the battery bank. It was a 400v battery bank, and a 208v 3 phase grid. Perfect current control with a resolution of 0.1amp. It was so beautiful to see. Even cooler was that you could command the reactive current to zero just by setting IdRef to 0. Then, when you look at the waveforms for grid current and grid voltage, they are perfectly in phase. Grid tie with a power factor of 1. I had to use 3 inductors for this, but I bet you could use the motor somehow.

 

[MPaulHolmes]

Disclaimer: This go-kart is not done! And my son and I only went like 5 mph, so chill! haha. Anyway, Here's a first very basic test with a Nissan leaf go kart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FUEo_TXSDg

 

[SlowCo]

Very impressive result.
I would love to have a Sylva Vectis with this drive train and as much battery stuffed in the limited spare space as possible... 8)
http://www.sylva.co.uk/sylva-vectis-2/