Peddle Power vs Ebike

[Kurt]

After Using my cheap ebike frame to try out different motor,battery,controller,trailers,child seats and mounting locations My plan was once I have it all ironed out was to move all the gear over to a better bike. being ether a home made recumbent or my other mountain bike.

Being a bit pressed for time lately I started to move the gear over to my steel frame mountain bike. After spending some time in the garage working out how it was all going to come together. I started to have mixed thoughts about what I was about to do.

The gear I was going to move to the other bike was 5304,48a controller and 20ah 36v headway battery.

POSITIVE
Better quality lighter frame
Better quality components,shifters,brakes,derailer's ect.
The fact my wife has the exact same bike that I could fit out the same as mine.
I had just got new rear panniers and bags for both bikes.

NEGATIVE
Frame could be thinner and weaker
Battery's had to be mounted on panniers at the back along with heavy hub motor
Couldn't mount panniers and child seat at same time
No front suspension
Being a men's bike rather than unisex its harder to dismount from .
Might look messy with controller and wires mounted on frame.

After going over all this in my head I wanted to ride the bike without the motor thinking that I would come back from the ride disappointed and wanting to slap that motor and battery on as fast as I can.

I pumped the tyres up to 65psi grabbed my helmet .The fist thing I could see was that the car and trailer were in the driveway and I couldn't wheel the bike past them.so I just picked it up and walked it over the trailer at 13kg I can do this and it felt good to be able to just pick it up. I jumped on and off I rode.The bike was so easy to peddle and seemed to roll for ever. I soon moved into top gear and was peddling away. It Wasn't to hard and felt about the same speed as my e bike around 35 40kmh.I decided to go up some hills to prove to myself the ebike was a better option. I shifting down to the appropriate gear it was a little bit of hard work and I was at the top of quite a big hill. I rode about 10km round trip back my my house.

After taking the bike for a ride . I will leave my old bikes as peddle only. If the ride is a short distance or on flat ground I think they are a good or better option .I like how they are almost 100% reliable and easy to take away with the car or on camping trips.Both wheels can be taken off in 2 min. I like how my wife and I can ride them into the city and feel safe locking them up and they will still be there when we come back.$5,000 worth of e bikes gets you nervous doing the same.

So for now everything will stay on my big heavy ebike frame and it will be used for long distance rides where I have to lug my daughter and or trailer load of gear around .More of a work horse I guess. I now don't feel the need to make it any lighter as the weight of a 5304 and 20ah battery not to mention the cogging effect make peddling almost pointless. Gear changing components don't get used much if at all when you have a x5 so the quality is that important .I just except it now as a e motorcycle that I can ride on the bike paths .

I guess my opinions would be different if I had a tiny free-wheeling motor and small capacity battery. making the bike more of a hybrid.

I probably will build my own e bike frame one day but my criteria would be comfort strength integration and practicality.

Kurt.

 

[morph999]

I wonder how fast those really lightweight bikes go. The ones that Lance Armstrong uses. I'd really like to try one of those out. I have a really heavy 50lb mountain bike. Now it's even heavier with the motor and everything. I wish the lightweight bikes were cheaper so I wouldn't have to worry about someone stealing it if I bought one.

 

[John in CR]

Kurt,

I've got nothing against pedaling at all, but some long hills might change your mind quickly. Of course I'm spoiled with a fast e-bike, have lot's of hills to contend with, and this month has been horribly windy (always seems to be a headwind too), so I've been absolutely flying by any cyclists I see. Not once have I seen one smiling up a hill, but I must look like the Joker with a permanent EV grin.

John

 

[morph999]

Kurt,

I've got nothing against pedaling at all, but some long hills might change your mind quickly. Of course I'm spoiled with a fast e-bike, have lot's of hills to contend with, and this month has been horribly windy (always seems to be a headwind too), so I've been absolutely flying by any cyclists I see. Not once have I seen one smiling up a hill, but I must look like the Joker with a permanent EV grin.

John

do any of them yell at you when you pass them? here in my city, there are so few cyclists that I haven't passed any yet or seen any on the road. My state sucks.

 

[Kurt]

I Think what I proved to myself and was trying to say. Is that some times a good simple bike design is best ridden as a standard bike. That way you can take advantage of its positive aspects.Use it how it was designed to be used.

If there are big long hills involved or heavy loads. I agree its not fun or very practical every day on a standard bike .That's where e bikes are great. I just hadn't used my standard bike for some time and I had dismissed how good it could be when riding in gentle terrain.

The other point I was trying to make is that standard peddle bikes don't all ways make for very good e bikes. It can make for a less than ideal set-up when you are trying to integrate everything onto a standard bike.When the manufacturer was designing the bike electric bikes was the last thing on there mind. Hub motors,battery's and controllers were not even considered.

There is probably a need for custom built frames with hefty drop outs and integrated battery areas. Perhaps even wire ducting in the frame to allow you to run all the wires through the frame.Brakes and shift levers that are designed to work around twist throttles would be nice. kick Stands that can handle the extra weight of e bikes. You can sift through what bikes are out there and pick frames that work better than others. I just think if you wipe the slate clean and design something from scratch intended to be a e bike that would be nice.

I intend on building one from scratch myself when time permits.I understand that the industry is evolving and retrofitting is normal at the moment .

Kurt.

 

[dogman dan]

About the same conclusion I came to. My commuter is a cheap, fairly heavy MTB and works well as an ebike. Lotsa steel but who cares , it has a nice motor.
But my vintage motobecane road bike is still cherry, and I have a much lighter MTB I sometimes ride on single track. I now have an ev global that is also nice on the single track, but yesterday, now that it's warmer, it gets hot and I have to stop riding. Too heavy to pedal up the hills on that trail. So the light MTB is actually a lot better without the motor in that place. In cold weather the ev global will shine, but most of the year here it's hot. The garage is stuffed with bikes, including my grocery getter E tricycle. The right tool for each job I always say. Goes for bikes, cars, trucks, skis, surfboards, and on and on. No way to have too many of any of that stuff.

For a look at a nice frame design in an ebike, look at the EV global frame. I'll get some pics of it with the plastic covers off and post em. It's pretty close to how I'd design one from scratch as far as the battery carrying. I'd do old school motorcycle rear suspension and a slighly longer wheelbase for street use though.

 

[John in CR]

Kurt,

I've got nothing against pedaling at all, but some long hills might change your mind quickly. Of course I'm spoiled with a fast e-bike, have lot's of hills to contend with, and this month has been horribly windy (always seems to be a headwind too), so I've been absolutely flying by any cyclists I see. Not once have I seen one smiling up a hill, but I must look like the Joker with a permanent EV grin.

John

do any of them yell at you when you pass them? here in my city, there are so few cyclists that I haven't passed any yet or seen any on the road. My state sucks.

Morph,

You don't pass them because you're still doing about the same speed...No yelling except the occasional teenagers in cars who must think it's funny to see a fat gringo zipping around on such a small bike. It's a cheapie 24" Raliegh dual suspension that I stretched the wheelbase by extending the swingarms 8", but wish I would have added 12". I guess I don't look so funny on my grocery hauler which is much longer, since no one yells. It started as a 26" MTB and I stretched it by 16" ala Xtracycle.

John

 

[northernmike]

Dogman, I didn't know you had a Motobecane! What model?

You know, I'm converting a Motobecane moped to electric drive. And you know, Motobecane is a compound french word for Motor - Bicycle? Oui!

I think the development of the e-bike will be toward more suitable frames - more purpose built. My old italian 10-speed cruises SO sweetly, I'd never add electric power to it. 25lbs with 125psi in the tires, she just flies. Even coasting down a slight decline, I pass my brother on his mountainbike even though I'm 25% lighter. I've done 100km rides on it, no problem, and love the way I can throw it around. But it's a physically demanding machine. I get on it to sweat.

Mopeds are a totally different animal - 100lbs wet, but stable and comfortable under power. But you only pedal them to start the motor.

Electric two-wheelers, I think, will be evolving! I don't know if the 'assist' design style will survive long.

I think it's more realistic to build a relatively lightweight but well balanced rig for propulsion by motor alone.

Drivelines are approaching the point where performance / weight will soon match up with the best mopeds - making a perfect inner-city transport solution!

I see tons of cheap Daymak ebikes in Toronto - surely better ones will follow.

In conclusion, I don't think it's a question of "pedal power VS ebike", but of which you need or want, to do what?

 

[Russell]

I wonder how fast those really lightweight bikes go. The ones that Lance Armstrong uses. I'd really like to try one of those out. I have a really heavy 50lb mountain bike. Now it's even heavier with the motor and everything. I wish the lightweight bikes were cheaper so I wouldn't have to worry about someone stealing it if I bought one.

It's not the machine, it's the motor...err rider. If you're not in halfway decent shape you are not going to be fast on any regular bike you ride.

I doubt your mountain bike is 50 pounds though. The latest bike I bought is a 2009 Kona Smoke 2-9 with a steel frame and big tires and it weighed 34 lbs in stock trim. Am I slower on it than on my 1x9 flat bar road bike which weighs 10 lbs less and sports tires half as wide? Sure but only by around an average of 1 mph.

One of the best things you can do to increase the efficiency of a mountain bike if it's only ridden on pavement is switch out the knobby tires for anything with a smooth tread. The best thing you can do to increase your average speed on a regular bike is to make sure it is tuned up and that it fits you properly, then ride it often to get your legs and more importantly your cardiovascular system in shape.

What I really like about my ebike is that it makes it much easier to get out there riding again. I don’t cross country ski or anything over the winter so every spring it’s almost like starting over again to get into cycling condition. The assist the motor provides allowed me to hop right on my bike again and ride for over 20 miles without feeling fatigued. Because I ride for fun and fitness when the warmer weather of April and May arrive I will likely choose my regular bike as often as the ebike.

If I were commuting by ebike I’d build something more along the lines of what others here have done with a target of at least 20 mph and enough battery to get there and back without having to recharge it or put a lot of my own pedaling effort into it.

-R

 

[dogman dan]

Sorry if that wasn't so clear in the previous post, a bad habit I have. Surely you know what I'm thinking?

The motobecane grand jubilee road bike, circa about 1970, is still stock, except I switched from an odd retro handlebars to a riser mtb bars. No motor on it, though I keep thinking about a rear bafang and a superlight lipoly battery of about 5 ah. That bike cost 10 bucks, and could be parted out for several hundred. It weighs 27 pounds, which to me feels light, and is still light for an all steel frame. It's geared to be pedaled at about 32 mph in a fast cadence in top gear, if you can handle that. I can for about a mile, maybe, but on flat ground I can pedal it 20 mph for miles. But not and work aferward!

My other bike I pedal motorless is a Quicksilver Yakota MTB. This one I put money into, 20 bucks, and then put a 30 buck suspension fork on it. It weighs 35 pounds, again steel hardtail frame, but a light for steel. The fork added a few pounds. That bike is sweet on the rocky single track trails in the nearby mountains.

My commuter bike, with the aotema motor, is a cheap wally world mongoose full suspension mtb. Suprisingly it only weighs 38 pounds, but with motor, battery, bags with locks and tools, it weighs about 75 pounds. Pedaling it better not be uphill. I think these cheap bikes make good commuters once you toss the seats and handlebars and turn em into comfort bikes. They have steel dropouts front and back, and all the cheeze stuff on it can be swapped out with high dollar stuff taken off expensive bikes bought for nothing at gargage sales and flea markets. The only real issue is the 1" headsets, that make finding a moderately good replacement suspension fork hard to find.

I once owned a motobecane moped. After some tweaks to the trottle cable, it would do 35 mph. It was a suicide machine, nobody expected a bicycle to go that fast and they would turn right, right into my path, several times a day. Are you listening Morph? They expect that kind of speed out of a motorcycle, but it the big city, travel that fast on a bicycle and they're gonna get you. That moped was absolutely the most dangerous vehicle I ever owned, including dirt bikes, muscle bikes, and the hot air balloon. The moped was too fast for the bike lane, and too slow for the 45 mph roads. I learned fast to stay on roundabout routes to stay off roads with above a 35 mph speed limit.

 

[northernmike]

Dogman - we see things very differently!

I've LOVED my mopeds, especially in the city. Faster than gridlock, plus you can jump in a bike lane - free to park and $5 a week for gas! Now less, with batteries, of course.

But they're only dangerous if you're not equipped with mirrors and ready to haul on the brakes in a millisecond's notice.

Great lights and a loud horn help, but you're right - nobody expects a bicycle at that kind of speed. You have to ride it IN traffic, WITH traffic, not around it, at that point. Which, if you have nerves of steel, ain't bad. Actually - I love it.

I ride my Legnano (10 speed) like that in the city, too. I drive it like a car - signal, stop, pass, etc. - and am NOT one of those inconsiderate fools who blows stop signs and red lights and cuts you off.

And it comes down to the right tool for the job, as we've been saying, I guess. For me, in the city, a moped is perfect. A bike is great too. For other folks in other places - they have different questions to ask themselves.

 

[recumpence]

This is a great thread!

I am with you on the regular bike versus an E-bike. I have looked at the same thing. Here is my take on it;

First, I am at the other side of the spectrum. My recumbent is a touch over 40 pounds with all E-quipment. It freewheels too. So, with the motor off, I cannot perceive any added drag from the motor.

When I ride my recumbent, I typically use the motor to accellerate and to climb hills. That's it. I can sustain nearly 30mph just pedalling if I use the motor to get me up there. So, I hit the motor to get up to speed, then I shut it off and pedal. So, I am pedalling around at 25 to 27 mph (on the average), oh wait, here comes a long hill! No problem, I hit the motor and climb the hill, then shut it off and pedal.

I use my motor to extend my range more than anything. Oh, I also need it if I want to leave my little town. All the roads are 40 to 50 mph limit. So, I crank up to 40+ mph and get past that stretch of road to the next town, then pedal.

I truely use my bike as a hybrid.

Matt

 

[monster]

i like pedal bikes untill you have to go up a hill. then it hits you that you have no option but to pedal as hard as you can, just so you don't fall off. plus their speed is so limited.

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe the problem wasn't the moped but the drivers in this town. Notroiously stupid and oblivious to both bikes and pedestrians. Bear in mind I live 40 miles from Mexico, and no shit, 1/2 the population here was born in Mexico. The remaining 50% is half retirees that drive like Mr Magoo. Might see a dump truck with flashing lights. I found the right cross was inevitable and impossible to predict by watching mirrors. At 35 mph on gravel strewn asphalt, forget stopping in time. The manuver I perfected was to lay it sideways by locking the rear brake, and stopping by a snap kick into the door of the crossing idiot in the car. It kept me out from under the wheels and usually left a satisfying dent in the car door. Beat going over the car endo, which I did do one time. Out in the traffic, they'd be an inch from your rear wheel when they woke up to the fact that you were driving at the actual speed limit. So I found the back route was the way to go. Currently, on the ebike, I can stop much faster from 25 mph than from 35, but I still ride the back way, behind the box store, etc, you know. The street is suicide unless you can outrun em. 90% of my 15 mile commute is on some kind of bike lane or bike trail that is either isolated from the street, or has few opportunites for a right turn. end of rant.

Back to pedal or throttle. I pedal for fun, riding a fun bike in a fun place and don't mind the effort there. On the ebike, it's basic transportation, but the fact I still get to pedal the ammount I choose is icing on the cake.