Performance battery 3-way shootout! :) :) :)

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A member here sent me a couple of the highest performance cylinder type LiFePO4 cells available right now, and I'm supplying some common prismatic cells in the testing.

Things to find out:

Real useable capacity

Real Ri (and hence voltage drop)

Real cell heating data (with an IR imager)

Realistic peak current levels the cells can handle

Real specific power and specific energy density

Plus more that you guys think of. :)


The contenders! :)


headways.jpg


lipo.jpg


bmil.jpg
 
alswiseowl said:
sweet.

what is the rated c discharge of the 15ah lifepo4 cell..

good luck

Alex


We will find out better than the "rated" C discharge (which I've never seen a consistant number on, 10c to 20c I've seen claimed). We will find the real C discharge. :)
 
Hey Luke,

what cells are you testing? I can't see any of the images here.

What are you using to test the cells, the same rig you used for the pouch cells previously? Best of luck.
 
cell_man said:
Hey Luke,

what cells are you testing? I can't see any of the images here.

What are you using to test the cells, the same rig you used for the pouch cells previously? Best of luck.


Yep, same rig. Damn! I wish you could see the pics! It's the BMI/LiFeTech 15Ah round cell, the Headways "P" 8Ah cell, Hobby King 5Ah LiPo, and I'm going to do a comparison with your super performing >16Ah pouch cells as well.

And yes, same test rig, I had to rebuild it from the last time it melted down doing tests on your monsters cells. lol Fortunately, these cells should be relatively kittens to test in comparison. :)

At the moment, all cells have 15 cycles from 3.65v to 2.5v, and the BMI/LiFeTech cell seems to gain about 1-2% capacity on every cycle still, so it's obviously still breaking in, so it's currently on the cycler again for another 10 cycles or so.
 
Someone should send you a Turnigy pack to make it a 4 way shootout. Aren't they the ones actually made by HC? I'm holding some hope out for some EiG 20ah cells too, since their 175wh/kg, 10c, and good safety claims make them just about ideal for us.
 
Ive got Turnigy packs, and rhino packs, including 40c cells. But most folks don't use more than 20-30c packs for bikes, so I'm just testing some typical everyday cheap lipo.


John in CR said:
Someone should send you a Turnigy pack to make it a 4 way shootout. Aren't they the ones actually made by HC? I'm holding some hope out for some EiG 20ah cells too, since their 175wh/kg, 10c, and good safety claims make them just about ideal for us.
 
If you have a way of testing charging performance, which I would think is a factor of IR but seems to not be because I've come across forum posts where apparently the 10Ah Headway cells have issues with much much over 1/2c charging. ...although we know with your torture test that it takes a heat gun and severe overcharge to set them ablaze.

I'm watching closely.
 
liveforphysics said:
A member here sent me a couple of the highest performance cylinder type LiFePO4 cells available right now, and I'm supplying some common prismatic cells in the testing.

Hardly what you would call a fair comparison in terms of high power/high C rate when the LiFeTech X2E cell chosen is the least powerful cell we manufacture and is rated at 10C continuous, 15C peak. The X2E cell is a "High Energy" cell while our X1P cell is a "High Power" cell. The Power cell should of been used instead of the Energy cell, after all there is hardly any point in comparing oranges with apples. :?
 
liveforphysics said:
alswiseowl said:
sweet.

what is the rated c discharge of the 15ah lifepo4 cell..

good luck

Alex


We will find out better than the "rated" C discharge (which I've never seen a consistant number on, 10c to 20c I've seen claimed). We will find the real C discharge. :)

10C continuous, 15C peak is the spec. Here are the discharge curves and cell data sheet.
I put my money on the LiFeTech cell to have the nicest (flatest) discharge curve hands down!!
View attachment LiFeTech X2E Cell Specification.pdf
 
i am curious about your results luke! are you also making a graph in time with all 3 test objects?

and finally the 'smoke them out LUKE-OUT here comes the flameburst TEST !!! ' :mrgreen:
 
Thanks for the spec sheet BMI.

I had been getting some kinda odd results during the cycleing, first not getting more than 14.12Ah running cycles between 3.65v-2.7v at 7.5amp charge and discharge, but each cycle would always be slightly higher than the last, so I kept it cycling. Now it's pretty consistant, and I think it's broken-in.

I wanted to see if I could get 15Ah from it, so I stepped up the HVC to 3.85v, and LVC to 2.5v, and did 15amp charge and discharge. Oddly, it wouldn't do more than 14.2Ah. I tried lowering charge discharge rate to 7.5amps (0.5C) again, but keeping the higher 3.85v HVC and 2.5v LVC. The cell jumped up to 14.38Ah by doing this. I'm guessing it will hit the 15Ah mark if I set it for 2.0v LVC, I will try that. Maybe not discharging deep enough was why it took so many cycles to break-in? Do you have a recomended break-in procedure and number of cycles?


With the cell at ~25-30% charge capacity (about 3.5Ah back in after discharging), when I set the charger for 20amp charging, it seems to jump right up to 3.65v on the charger and hold it there in CV mode for about the whole last 70% of the charge cycle. It's possible I need to use some bigger charge lead wires though, because I'm not doing a 4-wire voltage senseing setup (aka, balance tap input to monitor voltage) for the charger, and I know I should be.


I will swap the 12awg charge leads for some 8awg leads, and setup a 4-wire voltage monitor setup before I assume something is funny with the cell.


The headways "P" (8Ah) seems to go about 8.1Ah going 3.65 HVC to 2.7v LVC when I charge and discharge at 0.5C (4amps). Like the BMI cell, the voltage climbs very quickly to 3.65v CV mode on the charger when I set it for 20amps as well.

I'm not going to rule it all out just being charge lead voltage-drop error until I setup the 8awg leads and 4-wire measurement system, but it does seem interesting to see pretty good Ri from both cells during discharge, and about 4x higher Ri during charge. I don't remember seeing that when I was doing the A123 pouch testing, but maybe it was happening and I just wasn't paying as much attention, or maybe because I was using the 8awg charge leads for everything that the whole problem is nothing but an artifact of the voltage drop in the wires.


The LiPo pack has repeatedly discharged 6.5Ah/cell for me. :) This is one of my T-REX 600E RC helicopter packs that I've beat on for about 50-60 cycles all ready, so I don't really care what happens to it. Just for kicks I ran some 4.45v to 3.2v cycles, and got 6.5Ah out of it. :) Starting from 3.2v, it took in 6.55Ah, then spit back out 6.5Ah in discharge. That means dispite getting over-charged badly, it seems to store the energy chemically rather than releasing it as heat. This is a good sign, but let me say to you folks out there, do NOT do what I'm doing with over-charging for extra capacity (unless you're experimenting in a safe place). I've not had problems from it yet, but I know it's gotta impact cycle life in a big way that would definately not make it worth while for an EV pack, I'm only doing it to play around with a pack and brand that I'm very familiar with from abusing it in my helicopters. Totally possible you could try it with a different lipo pack and burn your bike and/or home to the ground, so consider that a warning.
 
BMI said:
liveforphysics said:
A member here sent me a couple of the highest performance cylinder type LiFePO4 cells available right now, and I'm supplying some common prismatic cells in the testing.

Hardly what you would call a fair comparison in terms of high power/high C rate when the LiFeTech X2E cell chosen is the least powerful cell we manufacture and is rated at 10C continuous, 15C peak. The X2E cell is a "High Energy" cell while our X1P cell is a "High Power" cell. The Power cell should of been used instead of the Energy cell, after all there is hardly any point in comparing oranges with apples. :?


I somehow missed this post! Please let me know what the best cell to be testing for a high-power application is, and how I can buy a sample.
 
Ok, I've got some realistic specific energy and energy density numbers.

Why do I say realistic? Because taking the Ah figure printed on the cell x nominal voltage and dividing by the physical volume of a round cell doesn't give you a number useful at all towards knowing how much space you need for your pack, or how much useful energy you can use for a given weight etc.


First, after watching a number of cycles, and taking videos of even light discharge as the cell dips into it's ~80-90% discharged state, it becomes very clear the Ri of the cell is so high at this point, that the last bit of capacity is essentially useless for EV use at that point. Fortunately for us, it's a pretty defined point with both of these LiFePO4 cells. They seem to hover pretty flat until this point hits, and then the Ri grows so much they would not be useful to continue discharge (unless you're pulling like a 5-10amp load or something, but this is a performance EV cell test, not a flashlight battery test or something.)

For the Headways "P" cell, this point occurs right about 6.5Ah, and voltage drops from ~3.2-3.1 right down to mush on a pretty steep slope. This is also the point at which the cells get the most heating from the v-drop induced from the increased Ri. For a performance application, 6.5Ah is the point at which a pack made of headways "P" cells should be put on the charger.

For the LiFeTech/BMI cell, this point occurs right about 12.8Ah. This is the point at which it's time to stop running your performance EV and plug in your charger.


Why is this important to know? Because if you choose to drain the cells clear down to 2v, you can make them give up 8.45Ah for the headways P, and 14.8Ah for the LiTech, but once you cross 6.5Ah and 12.8Ah, the performance is done, a ton of the energy will just be going into heating the cells if you continue, and the voltage drop makes it pointless to try to continue.

This means when building your performance EV, size the pack as if the headways are each 6.5Ah and the LiFeTech is a 12.8Ah cell.

This makes the useful energy capacity of the headways P is: 21.8wh's.
The useful energy capacity of the LiFeTech 15Ah is: 41.0wh's.

The volume of a headways "P" 8Ah cell alone is: 0.145L (a useless figure)
The volume of a LiFeTech X-2 15Ah cell alone is: 0.21L (a useless figure)

The weight of the headways P cell is: 337g
The weight of the lifetech 15ah cell is: 470g

lifetech.jpg

headwaysp.jpg


Doing the math here gives us one useful number, and one usless number.
The useful number of course being useful specific energy (excluding pack construction materials, which vary greatly on appliction, but are generally in the 5-10% range).

Useful specific energy of the naked headways P cell: 64.6wh/kg (watt-hours per kilogram)
Useful specific energy of the naked LiFeTech cell: 87.2wh/kg (watt-hours per kilogram)


The useles number would be to calculate would be volumetric energy density based on the cell's volume itself, because cylinder cells pack with gaps. Stack them in straight rows, or offset them to nest (best option for volume reduction), either way you do it, you're going to have space in your pack that isn't battery, and quite a bit of it. So, to find a useful volumetric energy density, we gotta see a model of how they stack. I was originally just going to use the pre-made LiFeTech and Headways packs as volume guides, but they would make things look worse than they could be, as they fit BMS units and in some cases a lot of dead space for the purpose of matching a standard battery size case to make direct replacements from lead-acid simple. So, I did some quicky models to get a rough handle on volumes. The models use a height that includes the top of each post (but no additional height to compensate for tab thickness.) Volume numbers do decrease a bit as packs get more length and height of cells being stacked, so if you're planning on having a giant continous block of nested cells, your volumetric density will improve by a couple percent, but never more than a few percent, which is why I think an 8cell stack is a fairly common and fair pack building block size to use.

Here is a picture showing the length and width of the smallest possible way to arange 8 cells to fit into a rectangular box:
headwaysbox.png


Here is a model to give an idea of the deadspace:
bmideadspace.png



The smallest possible rectangular box to fit 8 headways cells: 1.86L
The smallest possible rectangular box to fit 8 LiFeTech 15Ah cells: 2.42L


Useful volumetric energy density:

Headways 8Ah P cell: 89.5 wh/L (watt-hours per liter)
LiFeTech 15Ah cell: 135.4 wh/L (watt-hours per liter)
 
Am I the only person happy to see the useful volumetric energy and specific energy increase in modern LiFePO4 cells?
 
Nah LFP! We're readin. Just speechless! Keep on keeping on!
otherDoc
 
Given the pricing and real capacities, if we really can safely get 1k+ cycles out of the Lipo's, it looks like they'll win out across the board. The LiFePo4 researchers have some catching up to do, though the cycle lives of those A123's is hard to ignore, but what use is it if we can't buy them?
 
liveforphysics said:
BMI said:
liveforphysics said:
A member here sent me a couple of the highest performance cylinder type LiFePO4 cells available right now, and I'm supplying some common prismatic cells in the testing.

Hardly what you would call a fair comparison in terms of high power/high C rate when the LiFeTech X2E cell chosen is the least powerful cell we manufacture and is rated at 10C continuous, 15C peak. The X2E cell is a "High Energy" cell while our X1P cell is a "High Power" cell. The Power cell should of been used instead of the Energy cell, after all there is hardly any point in comparing oranges with apples. :?

I somehow missed this post! Please let me know what the best cell to be testing for a high-power application is, and how I can buy a sample.

Our LiFeTech High Power "Gold" 3.3V 8Ah X1P cells have more than double the discharge power of the X2E 3.3V 15Ah cell you are testing. The X1P cells are a very high discharge rate cell which is mainly used in high power engine cranking batteries for starting large diesel generators. For example the photo below shows one of our complete LiFeTech X1P packs (in this case 24V 48Ah) which we supplied to a customer for starting a large 1500kVA (more than 2000 horsepower) Onan diesel generator. The current while starting the genset during the cranking period of 3-5 seconds measured 1200amps.
The LiFeTech battery weighs 24kg (51lbs) and replaced 4x lead acid 12V 100Ah engine starting batteries connected in 2S2P so as to provide 24V 200Ah. The total lead acid battery weight was more than 3x the weight of the LiFeTech lithium pack.
24V 48Ah 1200A Genset Starting Battery.jpg
 
Love it LFP. This comparison just made me understand what was going on when I put a pingbattery in a race. The 15 ah battery was acting like it was only a 5 ah battery. I had a vague understanding of it, but now I get it.
 
Our high "Energy" cells are far better suited to EV applications and make up more than 80% of the market since the high "Power" cells only find application for extreme discharge applications such as for engine cranking batteries. EV's don't require cells with discharge rate greater than 10C continuous in most cases which is what our 10Ah X1E and 15Ah X2E cells are rated for.

We are however in the process of manufacturing some compact, lightweight LiFePO4 batteries for engine starting applications. These will use our X1P cells and we will have a 4 cell version as a motorcycle starting battery and an 8 cell version as a car starting battery. We are in the process of having the cell end plates manufactured as in the example of the prototype battery I have been using for testing. This 4 cell battery will start my car easily but the 4 cell version will be sold for motorbike use while the 8 cell pack will be for cars.
 

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At my work, we have 16 of these 3,000hp gens. Each has 2 starter motors, and a battery cabnet arranged 2P2S with 8D sized VRLA starting batteries (24v system).

I hate them. I hate lead batteries. Over the 3.5years I've worked here, they have been a continous reliability concern for the generators.

I would LOVE to swap to something in Lithium to reduce maintenance costs. We are budgeted for it, but we would have to absolutely confirm a failure rate at less than the VRLA batts, and have equilivant monitoring abilities to interface with the SCADA systems to alarm in the event of any voltage hi/lo situations. If something works well and improves reliability of the VRLAs that have been a long-term reliability issue, there are 14 datacenters of similar size that I work with that would all be looking to make the same swap. I've watched the starter motors spike the 2,000amp amp-clamp meter to just say "Hi-ol" everytime they start. The engines are kept heated with block coolant heaters, but room temps also fluctuate between about -10C at the most, to about 48C at the peak.

Pics:

batts.jpg


gens.jpg
 
dogman said:
Love it LFP. This comparison just made me understand what was going on when I put a pingbattery in a race. The 15 ah battery was acting like it was only a 5 ah battery. I had a vague understanding of it, but now I get it.


Glad I could help Dogman :)

Now if only that 3010b charger will arrive... I will be making neat USB datalogged current/voltage/temp/energy/capacity discharge graphs of a bunch of the cells I've got handy.
 
BMI said:
Our high "Energy" cells are far better suited to EV applications and make up more than 80% of the market since the high "Power" cells only find application for extreme discharge applications such as for engine cranking batteries. EV's don't require cells with discharge rate greater than 10C continuous in most cases which is what our 10Ah X1E and 15Ah X2E cells are rated for.


I hear you 100% on this, and I agree the higher energy cells make much better sense for regular EV builds.

This series of tests is about performance EV battery testing though, like electric racecars/racebikes and/or engine starting applications. :) I'm going to be finding the current discharge limits of the cells in my next set of tests, I just didn't want to risk hurting my samples yet until I had a good grip on the useful energy in the cells (I've only got one P-cell and one LiFeTech X2E to test, so I gotta move from least-risk tests towards more-risk tests).

If you will point me to a vendor that I can buy your best high performance discharge cell from, I will gladly do it. If possible, I would like to get a cell all ready in-stock with some vendor, this way I can know that the cell for testing isn't being cherry-picked by the mfg.
 
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