Pikes Peak Race--Entering?

[Arlo1]

Hey bigmoose.
I have already planned to put the axel of my x5 in the lathe and drill the center out very small from the side oposit to the wires and put a 1/8 pipe tap in the end then plumb a windsheild washer sprayer into the system full of water and drill a few very small holes through the axle inside the hub on the radial axis and let the water spray the windings from the center my motor gets hot enough it will just turn to steam!!!

 

[bigmoose]

Arlo, I like how you think! Only thing I would use de-ionized or distilled water. Put 1 drop, just a drop, no more of Dawn diswashing soap in per gallon of water. Looking forward to your test!

 

[Arlo1]

Arlo, I like how you think! Only thing I would use de-ionized or distilled water. Put 1 drop, just a drop, no more of Dawn diswashing soap in per gallon of water. Looking forward to your test!

Its going to be a while but I will do it!
Now time to rest so I can work on the other projects.......

 

[dogman dan]

Cool idea Moose. Makes me think of Reid Welchs idea for an underwater running motor. He was filling his hubmotor with oil, but it might work good for heat transfer too. Hmmm.

Air cooling sucks for sure. The no water molecules in the air didn't help my death race motor any. Smoke poured out the cooling holes real nice when it ignited the strings that tie down the windings in a 9c. Other than letting the smoke out, the cooling holes didn't do much good.

Mabye you could just precool the motor? Pack dry ice into the holes before you start? Every little bit would help. If you were far enough ahead, you could take the time to stop and stuff more dry ice chunks into the cooling holes.

Sure wish this race was closer to my house.

 

[Hillhater]

why not run 2 motors,.. and either share the load, or alternate their use..1 mile at a time. ..!! :wink:

 

[Bike_on]

I have been doing my best to make some $$$$$$ off the race:

He responded like this:

Bike-on

I don't bet for $, just for a beer or soda, etc.

Xgreen: Keeping an eye on you and your teases of the Opti group. No, I don't gamble for $$...that's my conviction. However, I did make the last offer and the wheel is now on your bike. Pedal or get off.

The bet offer is still good for a beer or soda of your choice. Opti vs all hub designs up Pikes.

 

[MadScientist]

and the 'bad-taste' of sweet irony is too delicious.

One more thing: The Assault on the Peak is a bicycle ride up Pike's Peak. Showing up with a motorcycle class vehicle would be in bad taste.

You completely miss the point. This is a private bicycle ride. The course is "closed to motor vehicle traffic". If you bring a sufficiently powerful electric-motorcycle-with-pedals, someone is bound to complain and there will be consequences. The police can issue a ticket for riding a non-street legal vehicle. Organizers can close the event to electrics. I can't say for sure what will happen, but it won't be good. I have many years experience volunteering as an advocate for outdoor recreation, including time as a director of a national nonprofit, and have seen access closed down too many times for far less obvious offenses.

Ken

P.S. Try making a point of meeting some of us Optibike "pikers". You will be surprised ... and impressed.

 

[Green Machine]

Xgreen: Keeping an eye on you and your teases of the Opti group. No, I don't gamble for $$...that's my conviction. However, I did make the last offer and the wheel is now on your bike. Pedal or get off.

The bet offer is still good for a beer or soda of your choice. Opti vs all hub designs up Pikes.

Im just mousing around with you guys over at the optigroups like cat style...just some friendly prod and jabs to get you excited...we are just playing..romping around on the carpet. I just want you guys to show up to the race all pissed off and in force...with a whole bunch of them there optibikes. I want you guys come poised like the optigang...a big bad bunch of you all out in the open like a group of gazelles.

Then the race starts and i am going to pounce down and bite down with my vices like a giant cat....blood is going to spout everywhere and limbs are going to break, records are going to be beaten...i am crazy like that. And yes i might end up in a Colorado jail cell somewhere and will have a good story afterwards like an electric powered martin luther king or something. I am going to get my motor and controller from physics...and my drive system from matt. Them guys is going to provide me my claws and teeth.

As craig said "when the green flag drops the BS drops."

....no no no no!!! nevermind me just daydreaming :lol: Dont be pasting this over to the optigroups. I dont want team opti to be no show..saying something like "someone might get hurt"

Sure sure sure...lets bet a beer on that...in fact lets bet one beer and one chaser to the exact parameters you defined above. Agreed? Gentelmans style?...chaser will be Gentlemans Jack Daniels just to keep it neat.

Meet you in boulder bar after the race?

 

[dogman dan]

Good point. Who wants to ride around on an illegal, unregistered, uninsured motor vehicle in front of a bunch of state cops, sherrifs, or park rangers.

The bike had better be disposable to ride it in front of all that heat. This isn't the long traditional pikes peak hill climb, where dirt bikes and dune buggies compete. That's a different event on a different date.

So beating the optibikes with a not street legal bike would be pretty pointless. This is a ride for bikes, not homemade motorcycles like we took to the death race.

Nothing non bike though about two hub motors, provided they don't draw more than street legal watts. So two 350 watts, or one 750 at a time, etc. I wouldn't call a typical kit running 48v unfair though, even though it would draw about 1200 watts peak. I'd just call it unlikely to finish if ridden at the full 1200 watts.

It would be facinating to see a nicely geared RC motor pull 1000 watts up the thing though.

 

[Green Machine]

Yeah right...

This point is too strong to argue with.

Losing your very expensive ebike would be worst than jail.

Dogman wins again.

Whatever bike enters will have to be stealth enough to pass as a bicycle....stealth looks and stealth performance...no speed machines. That seems obvious with speed limits,cops, etc...its a ride and not a race...a point i have been making all the while. This is not a endless shere styled race....steer clear guys.

And i have heard that the ride is going to include the ride back down as part of the "race" this year...i dont know if its true...but i have heard that on the optigroups who seem to have inside information into that "ride". As physics said..on an ES bike this could be downright dangerous. Kill someone on that "ride" and you will be national news...high speed ebikes might be recognized and outlawed overnight. Its got all that cnn story potential...death by ebike atop pikes peak...etc etc.

Colorado law enforcement is nothing to f with. They got 4x4 cop trucks big enough to fit an ebike in the back...and i would be stuck in colorado...wrangling with the court system trying to get my bike back.

Heavy Sigh.....

 

[Bike_on]

While you ES guys agonize over dual hubs, winding ratios and Whrs,
the Opti guys will have to drink a few beers before they can decide
which color of bike they want to ride.

Bring on the hub-n-tubs and let's have a race!

 

[Green Machine]

While you ES guys agonize over dual hubs, winding ratios and Whrs,
the Opti guys will have to drink a few beers before they can decide
which color of bike they want to ride.

Bring on the hub-n-tubs and let's have a race!

Hey bike on.....

You ever wonder why giraffes don't ride ebike races????

Too many Cheatas.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

and the 'bad-taste' of sweet irony is too delicious.

One more thing: The Assault on the Peak is a bicycle ride up Pike's Peak. Showing up with a motorcycle class vehicle would be in bad taste.

You completely miss the point. This is a private bicycle ride. The course is "closed to motor vehicle traffic". If you bring a sufficiently powerful electric-motorcycle-with-pedals, someone is bound to complain and there will be consequences. The police can issue a ticket for riding a non-street legal vehicle. Organizers can close the event to electrics. I can't say for sure what will happen, but it won't be good. I have many years experience volunteering as an advocate for outdoor recreation, including time as a director of a national nonprofit, and have seen access closed down too many times for far less obvious offenses.

Ken

P.S. Try making a point of meeting some of us Optibike "pikers". You will be surprised ... and impressed.

snagged a coupla more lurkers i see....

saaw-weee, but it is YOU that miss MY point on how YOU have COMPLETELY missed the point & are totally oblivious to the hypocrisy inherent in YOUR assertion.
guess it's really tru, that americanz have no sense of irony.
do i really need to stick your nose right into it & painfully spell it out for you while swatting you on the behind for it to sink in on how your own bad-taste stinks no different?

what's ironic & so laughable not to mention just plain cheek, is how YOU believe it's NOT in bad taste to bring YOUR illegal motorcycle class vehicle (that exceeds both power & speed bicycle definition limits) to a bicycle race while telling others they shouldn't do the same.
not that there's much likelyhood of it happening anytime soon, but you need to worry about someone pointing out to the cops that optibike is not a street-legal vehicle in Co.
you will note that Craig & company do NOT join the race where the real motorcycles run as a tru test of how they measure up, if it's all simply for the timing.
obviously no press in it for them that way, all that effort just to come in last.

now that CraigT has confirmed what has long been an open secret, that team optibike riders have been running 1500 Watt factory ringers not available to anyone else.
the race i'm hoping to see is for some optibike privateers to show so we can know where they really place.

p.s. i am quite familiar with the genotype who feel the need to gold-plate their motor in order to get their crank turning, no surprise there..
such display of superfluous bad-taste & plain ignorance does not impress me in the least.

 

[Bike_on]

Hey, why are we getting so upset and throwing around hypocrisy accusations and illegal rides?

The Pikes peak (bike) race ALLOWED ebikes to enter last year. Obviously, they knew of the two Optis and the three others. NO ONE is going to get arrested. The motor car race allows cars to drive up the mountain at illegal speeds. Are they worried about bicycles with batteries??

I appreciated the link to Xgreens comments about the SF Opti meeting. I too have met Craig, and think their company is doing some very courageous stuff. They are sticking out their necks and wallets. I own an OPti but struggle wit the cost. I can also see how the profit margin can be limited. I suppose it is economics. Sell 20000 a year and the price will fall. However, they don't want to sell 20000 and loose the small company service and touch...

I got a 2008 Opti for about $8500. I am not rich, but commute 9-10 months of the year and have 10,000+ miles on the original battery. Bike holding up great. I recently ordered an A123 20ahr, prismatic cell pack from Falcon eV, 13S for 41.6V output. I expect to run the opti in the 950W range. Should be interesting.

DR

 

[liveforphysics]

If I go through the trouble of entering, the only bets I would place, would be cutting the opti-bike record in half. Yes, fully in half.

And I could care less about some cops trying to take my bike. I would hit the throttle and send it off the cliff and laugh as it tumbles and falls. Tell them they can climb down and get it if they want it. Bikes/motors/controllers/batts are cheap.

Parts to build a purpose-built machine for a single event is like a little 5% expense in comparison to the time and labor.

 

[remf]

Right on, Bike-on.

Let's have a race, all comers. Weight & power categories in the results would be a good idea.

 

[TylerDurden]

Hey, why are we getting so upset and throwing around hypocrisy accusations and illegal rides?

Legal in what sense....?

Did you know if your Opti was in the High Boost mode. Their is an easter egg in the fast/eco switch. Toggle it fast several times and it reprograms the boost from the controller. Opti insider owners know this.

The Opti can climb, but it also CRUISES. The MBB and gears allow decent torque and high cruising speeds (30-31mph) at 400-500W output from battery - fast and efficient.

My Cycle Analyst record my usage at a typical 20 whr/mi. One a NEW fresh batt, low rpm and heavy throttle, I'll see 26 whr/mi. Pedalling hard and averaging 25-26mph for 20+ miles, 18 whr/mi.

These are real numbers on rolling hills in Maryland.

Yes, if they ran the battery harder with more current, it would solve the "sluggish feel" compared to power hubs. IMO.

DR

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

oooo, opti-lurker#4.
about time you showed remf.

Hey, why are we getting so upset and throwing around hypocrisy accusations and illegal rides?

The Pikes peak (bike) race ALLOWED ebikes to enter last year. Obviously, they knew of the two Optis and the three others. NO ONE is going to get arrested. The motor car race allows cars to drive up the mountain at illegal speeds. Are they worried about bicycles with batteries??

I appreciated the link to Xgreens comments about the SF Opti meeting. I too have met Craig, and think their company is doing some very courageous stuff. They are sticking out their necks and wallets. I own an OPti but struggle wit the cost. I can also see how the profit margin can be limited. I suppose it is economics. Sell 20000 a year and the price will fall. However, they don't want to sell 20000 and loose the small company service and touch...

I got a 2008 Opti for about $8500. I am not rich, but commute 9-10 months of the year and have 10,000+ miles on the original battery. Bike holding up great. I recently ordered an A123 20ahr, prismatic cell pack from Falcon eV, 13S for 41.6V output. I expect to run the opti in the 950W range. Should be interesting.

DR

remember you're the one who's afraid & doesn't want to have the hi-power RC bikes show up on the grounds of being too motorcycle-like.
you figure hub drives are the only ones you got a chance with.

so do you know how to tell the difference between a bike with a 500W motor & a 5000W motor only by looking?
you can't, they're exactly the same motor.
personally, if you can make it fit onto something that is generally accepted as a bicycle frame it should otherwise be wide open to any & all.

artificial restrictions are for bureaucrats, but then it does sound like that's what this race has become so i doubt if many ebikes will show (again).
i have to wonder about all the police enforcement but also especially if making this years race start almost twice long as last year was prompted from cyclists complaints going up against bikes with motors .
seems like it's aimed squarely at torpedoing ebikes chances of taking the top spot.
the lycra's notion of leveling the play field.

 

[MadScientist]

what's ironic & so laughable not to mention just plain cheek, is how YOU believe it's NOT in bad taste to bring YOUR illegal motorcycle class vehicle (that exceeds both power & speed bicycle definition limits) to a bicycle race while telling others they shouldn't do the same.

Check your facts, my friend.

I run a small (44 tooth) chainwheel on my Optibike for insane climbing, but it limits my top speed (without pedaling) to a road legal 20mph. The power is also legal: 800W * 85% efficiency (estimated) = 680W, safely below Colordo's 750 W limit. It rides like a bicycle and goes significantly faster when I pedal hard. Not much like a motorcycle, really.

Hypocritically yours,

Ken

 

[joe tomten]

I think that that is fair and really useful distinction.

"Does it ride like a bike?"

Many of us here, if not most, are attracted by the lightweight, inherently superefficient nature of bicycles, and that addition of limited amounts of efficiently applied electrical power just makes it all the more joyful.

This whole thread has me wondering, if we were to assume that a 750 watt limit did exist for this contest, then there must be a line, or threshold, or something that exists where the physical capabilities of the rider, in conjunction with the expertly applied mechanical and electrical components win the day.

How much is the human, and how much the machine, if there is a hard limit of 750 watts at the battery > controller interface?

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

what's ironic & so laughable not to mention just plain cheek, is how YOU believe it's NOT in bad taste to bring YOUR illegal motorcycle class vehicle (that exceeds both power & speed bicycle definition limits) to a bicycle race while telling others they shouldn't do the same.

Check your facts, my friend.

I run a small (44 tooth) chainwheel on my Optibike for insane climbing, but it limits my top speed (without pedaling) to a road legal 20mph. The power is also legal: 800W * 85% efficiency (estimated) = 680W, safely below Colordo's 750 W limit. It rides like a bicycle and goes significantly faster when I pedal hard. , really.

Hypocritically yours,

Ken

how the hell should i know what you got or would even go about checking those facts, hmmm?
break into your garage?? :?

i point out (again the obvious) that my comments are confined to the only optibikes that have ever shown up @PP.
i.e. 1500W factory ringers.
then by you're own yardstick, team-opti running in a bicycle race is in bad-taste.

conversely if you're throwing in an estimated fudge factor into the mix, then by all means you should have no problemo with a 3000W hubmotor running @ 10% efficiency.

busted, Janus.


as i've said, i entreat you to enter the climb cuz i'm damn curious where a stock bone legal optibike will finish.
your optibike doesn't come equipped with this easter egg, or just not aware of it?

Their is an easter egg in the fast/eco switch. Toggle it fast several times and it reprograms the boost from the controller. Opti insider owners know this.

 

[liveforphysics]

I would be bringing something that feels like a bike (its a downhill bike), rides like a bike, but has >10kw of power output.

I still dont see much attraction to go though when its not actually a race.

 

[remf]

The Assault on the Peak is a timed fun ride to the summit, open to all cyclists. The way I read it - anything with pedals. The challenge is making it to the top past the finish line. So while competitors all start at the same time, the high powered hubs & RC's will break away from the lower powered mid-drives who in turn will break away from the regular cyclists. Staggered into these groups up the mountain, the ranks will thin the higher they go. Along with these grades comes built in safety with interspacing, lower speeds and less gravitational energy. With the average over 6%, maximum more than 10% over 25 miles, an overvolted X5, X7, XS, XT whatever, is going to find it difficult to finish in any case. Remember the challenge. To finish.

As far as regulations are concerned, the other, more famous hill climb event, The Race to the Clouds - The Pikes Peak International Hill Climb (PPIHC), has taken place since 1916 and now has 11 car classes and 10 motorcycle classes, including Unlimited - "anything goes" and Exhibition Car/Truck- Cars and trucks that don't fit into standard categories. Often these categories feature advances in alternative fuels or technologies. This year there'll be many electric motorcycle entrants. There are no requirements in that race for street compliance or anything near it.

So where should heavy-assed hub and RC bikes go? The Assault on the Peak or The Race to the Clouds? It makes far more sense for the powerful bikes with pedals to attempt the Assault than the PPIHC but why not both? If a hub can make it, it's going to take a big pack with all the disadvantages of extra weight that goes along with it. If one or more hubs make it then they should be applauded and won't detract from the results of other bikes in completely different weight & power categories and that should be reflected in the way the results are presented.

If the results are presented in an interesting, fact-filled and graphical manner, each category will have specific challenges for each setup explained. For the lower powered mid-drives like the Opti, the skills and fitness of the rider will be highlighted, for the heavier, higher powered bikes it's more about battery & heat management.

The argument about the Assault being for cyclists or lower-powered e-bikes isn't valid I don't think. It doesn't matter who crosses the line first, the real results will be in the computation of the results according to categories - weight, power, cost. The artificial application of power limits in a fun ride that should have no limits serves only to stifle the meaningfulness of the results. In any case I agree with Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh, if rumours mentioned here are to be believed, Optibike will be riding 1500W machines, way over street legal in CO or anywhere else, but's no reason to exclude them from the race to the top, timed ride, whatever you call it.

 

[dogman dan]

What is valid is that the assault on the peak does not have a waiver for the use of "non street legal" bicycles. Sure, we ride these things around all the time un-noticed by cops. But I think on the assault, you'd be noticed riding a 3000 watt bike up that hill, and likely have to talk to the cops, or send the bike over the cliff. I bet the littering fine there is fairly steep too. :lol:

I don't doubt a bike could get away with running double the opti's output. I'm just saying you'd be pretty obvious on anything like the mini motorcycles we took to the death race.

I looked seriously at the real pikes peak event. But for starters, they have battery tech inspection none of my bikes would pass. Even in the exibition class, you'd have to have a pretty nice battery container. But that race is where a hot rod ebike belongs really.

I wish somebody would take a stock 9c, with 48v and run it up that pikes peak ride. Just to see what mile marker it melts at. I've proven 10 miles of that kind of grade is possible, but nowhere in NM is there that steep, for that long nonstop. Emory pass, or the road to ski apache in ruidoso are only 10-12 miles of that kind of grade. Others like the road to santa fe ski are not that steep. The best test I could do would be to run up one of those twice, but then the motor would cool on the way back down some.

I think riding it smart, a 9c kit could beat the opti. You'd run watts till it got to about 250 f inside the hub, and then start backing off to maintain that temp. Hopefully you'd have enough lead by then to smash the opti's record.

 

[MadScientist]

how the hell should i know what you got or would even go about checking those facts, hmmm?
break into your garage?? :?

Obviously you don't know what I ride, nor much else about me. Calling me a hypocrite was an act of ignorance. You owe me an apology.

i point out (again the obvious) that my comments are confined to the only optibikes that have ever shown up @PP.
i.e. 1500W factory ringers.
then by you're own yardstick, team-opti running in a bicycle race is in bad-taste.

Gotta love them conspiracy theories. In the real world, where I ride, Jim and Kyle ran stock Optibikes last year. I assume they plan the same this year.

The boost you mention (1500W sounds about right) is a feature that Opti perplexingly calls "derivative power control" (DPC) or some such nonsense. It kicks in when the controller detects acceleration. I can't imaging it being of any significant use on this ride unless there competition is extremely close: It only lasts a few seconds; it is not useful when cruising at roughly constant speed; and it is disabled when the motor is running hot. In short, it won't make much difference in finish time. You can consider it cheating if you like - that's fine with me. In honest racing, battery capacity and/or motor input power should be strictly regulated (but this is NOT a race).

conversely if you're throwing in an estimated fudge factor into the mix, then by all means you should have no problemo with a 3000W hubmotor running @ 10% efficiency.

You will not win by arguing technical points with me.

That 85% figure was admittedly off the top of my head, but probably good to +/-5%. However, I made a real estimate of Optibike efficiency recently (posted to the Opti google group) and calculated 660W at the wheel at full throttle (800W input power). My estimate was confirmed by a real world measurement of 650W on an iBike power meter equipped Optibike. Clearly, that power measurement puts Opti power safely below the legal 750W limit.

Also, I'm curious. How does your 10% efficient hub dissipate 2700W of heat without melting, and where do you fit the 80+lbs of lipo batteries needed just to overcome the potential energy of the climb?

busted, Janus.

outed, Moron.

as i've said, i entreat you to enter the climb cuz i'm damn curious where a stock bone legal optibike will finish.
your optibike doesn't come equipped with this easter egg, or just not aware of it?

There is no mystery: A stock optibike with a fit rider will finish with Jim and Kyle. They have newer bikes with better batteries and improved cooling, so they would finish before me. By the way, the "easter egg" is not some sort of double secret power booster. It is a feature that was added at my request to reduce the default DPC boost which can be annoying if it kicks in when you are trying to conserve power.

Unfortunately, I have other plans for that weekend and won't be able to ride. I may have my logo on one of the other entrants bikes, though. If I design a logo before the event, that is :wink: