Ping 36v 20 ah, 5000 mile review.
- Thread starter dogman dan
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dogman dan
1 PW
All the "lithium" chargers I have seen ARE sla chargers, but with a higher voltage. I refer to the cheapies, not the better ones that cost a lot.
Russell
1 MW
RTLSHIP said:
Yes but it will take longer to charge SLA's with a LiPo charger.
SLA chargers and lithium chargers are NOT the same. I have two chargers that LOOK identical, even the circuit boards LOOK identical but they follow different charging profiles. The SLA charger follows the normal curve for charging an SLA battery which is to rise to 44.0V then when the current drops to 0.40A it goes to float mode of 41.0V (I tweaked these down from 44.4/41.4V). The LiPo charger on the other hand runs up to about 0.5V shy of the setpoint then the current slows as the voltage inches up putting the last 20% or so of juice into the battery. The last 20% of the charge takes about half again as long as the first 80% and this is without a BMS. When the current gets to 0.16A the LED on the front goes from red to green; for my Bosch Fatpacks this is about 41.09V. If left connected the current will go to essentially zero after a couple hours and the voltage will rise a bit to 41.15V. The LiPo charger originally came set for 42.0V but the Fatpacks prefer a lower voltage.
If I used my LiPo charger to charge my SLA pack it would charge to essentially the same point as my SLA charger but it would take longer because it inches up to the final voltage rather than overshooting then falling back like the SLA charger. If you use a LiPo charger set to 42.0V you'll be a bit high but ok however with a LiFePO4 charger set to 43.8V you're going to risk cooking your SLA batteries if you leave it connected for too long since it won't go to a float mode appropriate for SLA's. If you monitor the charging of the SLA's and stop them when they are full or tweak either lithium charger to 41.0V they would do fine in a pinch.
-R
dogman dan
1 PW
"I refer to the cheapies"
The chargers that come with the tool packs are the real deal I'm sure, and no doubt do a better job. As would more expensive models offered by some manufacturers.
Again, my statement was about the free charger that comes with ebay type duct tape packs. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough before.
The chargers that come with the tool packs are the real deal I'm sure, and no doubt do a better job. As would more expensive models offered by some manufacturers.
Again, my statement was about the free charger that comes with ebay type duct tape packs. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough before.
Russell
1 MW
dogman said:
I was referring to cheapies. I have an SLA and a LiPo charger that look identical but they work differently, as I noted above.
-R
dogman dan
1 PW
Ok, I misunderstood, I thought you meant a charger that came with the bosch fatpacks. Lifepo4 chargers may have also improved since last year. My personal chargers, though are sla chargers. It seems to work ok, at least for the first 3000 miles anyway. 3022 miles as of today. 
I think I toasted my ping charger somewhere around cycle 30 way back last June.
Last spring, everybody was saying they were just sla chargers with the voltage tweaked. This is news to me. you should post a new thread about it, since only a few are reading this far into this thread. Thanks for the info, and I'll give a different response in the future.
I think I toasted my ping charger somewhere around cycle 30 way back last June. Last spring, everybody was saying they were just sla chargers with the voltage tweaked. This is news to me. you should post a new thread about it, since only a few are reading this far into this thread. Thanks for the info, and I'll give a different response in the future.
I'd like to know what is meant by "tweaked" I just found out , via tracking, that my lipo pack just departed Shanghai. maybe it took a weeks lead time to bulid and test etc. Anyways, at least I can track it on EMS. Not in USPS yet.
Using an SLA charger seems like a safe idea if your lithium one breaks, but if your gonna buy a charger, buy the lithium one. My main desire for a 48 SLA is that SLA chargers are easier to find than Lithium ones and that an SLA Charger could be readily used on both SLA & Lith.
Using an SLA charger seems like a safe idea if your lithium one breaks, but if your gonna buy a charger, buy the lithium one. My main desire for a 48 SLA is that SLA chargers are easier to find than Lithium ones and that an SLA Charger could be readily used on both SLA & Lith.
dumbass
100 kW
RTLSHIP said:
OK, but doesn't the lifepo4 require higher charging voltage? I ask because it would be nice to use my SLA charger to also charge my future Lifepo4 bats too. And what about balancing the charge?
dogman dan
1 PW
Use an sla charger on lifepo4 all you want to, as long as it's the same nominal voltage. When your battery arrives, use a voltmeter to find out what the voltage is on the charger. A few lifepo4 sellers use the same voltage as regular sla chargers, but most will send you a charger that goes to a couple volts higher than a similar sla charger to improve balancing.
If you have a good pack, you could use lower voltage sla chargers a long time with no harm. When the pack gets out of balance, then you NEED to use a charger that will let the bms do it's thing, and balance the pack. Personally, I lost my ping charger at about mile 300, and have now gone 2700 miles with nothing but sla chargers. The tweaked one, a soneil, is set to 46.5 v . The other, that I use at work, every other charge, is set at 44v.
All the lower voltage charger does is stop charging at a slightly lower voltage, in my case, about .2 v less per cell. Since it does continue to trickle, eventually the pack will balance. As Russel says, the end of the cycle works different, so an sla charger may take longer to actually go green at the end.
If you have a good pack, you could use lower voltage sla chargers a long time with no harm. When the pack gets out of balance, then you NEED to use a charger that will let the bms do it's thing, and balance the pack. Personally, I lost my ping charger at about mile 300, and have now gone 2700 miles with nothing but sla chargers. The tweaked one, a soneil, is set to 46.5 v . The other, that I use at work, every other charge, is set at 44v.
All the lower voltage charger does is stop charging at a slightly lower voltage, in my case, about .2 v less per cell. Since it does continue to trickle, eventually the pack will balance. As Russel says, the end of the cycle works different, so an sla charger may take longer to actually go green at the end.
picked up the 48 v 15 ah lifepo4 pack at post office. dimesions 9.5"x5.5x4.5 weight is 15 lbs. f/ ebay vendor named Olympics2000888. Charger say 48 v 17-24 ah pc monitor type plug. So far eveything seems up to par. I'm charging it at work presently. I cannot tell wheter it is pouched cells or round, but the weight is surprisingly low. more news tommorrow.
dogman dan
1 PW
Yeah, shocking isn't it. It's one thing to read 15 pounds, but then it arrives, and you go wow! it's so small, and sooo light! If you are used to sla's at all, it just seems so amazing at first.
one odd thing is that the BMS is on sideways. It comes across the top of the pack and looks like a T shape when I look at the pack and BMS. problem is that it looks like it is immovable as the wiring is tight. Why would they do this. All the other pictures of Lipo packs have the BMS right on top of battery pack and flush with it.
I will have to get a bag or tool box that goes 8" wide across and part of the BMS chipboard will stick out the side anyways. Is BMS movable. I'd like to center it. This vendor sells alot of the nano phosphate 123 cells. Maybe that's what I got here. The charger puts out 59 v on multimeter probe
I will have to get a bag or tool box that goes 8" wide across and part of the BMS chipboard will stick out the side anyways. Is BMS movable. I'd like to center it. This vendor sells alot of the nano phosphate 123 cells. Maybe that's what I got here. The charger puts out 59 v on multimeter probe
dogman dan
1 PW
when I got my ping, the bms was on top, but the way I carry it, I wanted it on the side, to be on top in the box I use. I had just enough bms wire to move it, after I VERY CARFULLY removed some tape. Some have pulled welds loose untaping round cell packs. A larger lifepo4 pack is light, but some of em are in dang awkward square shapes for carrying.
The red & black wiring coming out of this pack is nearly 3 times as thick as 12 gague wire, so I has to use regular twist wire connectors instead of Andersons which had small terminals.
First thing I did was put 1" white foam around the duct tape pack; next I used "goodwrapers" mini shrink wrap to hold foam in place. Thus, I have added some protection and water proofing already. I think that the BMS was sideways because this pack was possibly designed for a car battery. The charger is called "Car Battery Charger"
Another problem is between my 2 multimeters. One reads 59.9 v when the pack is fully charge, the other reads 59.0
After pack is fully charged BMS gets warm for maybe 2 hrs. Voltage comes down, too.
Results: on my Aotema 2009 brushless 30 mph w/ some tail wind. The yellow light came on right away? But it quickly faded off. on my BD-36 about 32 mph ++ with wind. The problem with the BD-36 on 48 v lifepo4 is that a sudden hard acceleration
causes the pack to shut down? At that point the only way to get juice is to "reboot"-- pull out SAE power connection and reconnect. At this point, it's not worth riding the BD-36 w/ 48v as I can only move the throttle up super slowly/carefully.
The Aotema runs fine on 48v.
First thing I did was put 1" white foam around the duct tape pack; next I used "goodwrapers" mini shrink wrap to hold foam in place. Thus, I have added some protection and water proofing already. I think that the BMS was sideways because this pack was possibly designed for a car battery. The charger is called "Car Battery Charger"
Another problem is between my 2 multimeters. One reads 59.9 v when the pack is fully charge, the other reads 59.0
After pack is fully charged BMS gets warm for maybe 2 hrs. Voltage comes down, too.
Results: on my Aotema 2009 brushless 30 mph w/ some tail wind. The yellow light came on right away? But it quickly faded off. on my BD-36 about 32 mph ++ with wind. The problem with the BD-36 on 48 v lifepo4 is that a sudden hard acceleration
causes the pack to shut down? At that point the only way to get juice is to "reboot"-- pull out SAE power connection and reconnect. At this point, it's not worth riding the BD-36 w/ 48v as I can only move the throttle up super slowly/carefully.
The Aotema runs fine on 48v.
dogman dan
1 PW
Yeah, hards starts on the brushed motors pull a big spike of amps. I used to pop the controller on mine, though, not the battery bms. It did it with sla's too.
I had to swap thumb throttles. The one on the Aotema is damaged. At full throttle it is unresponsive. At half throttle I get full throttle. Not sure about cause. Maybe I pinched a wire or maybe the lithium pack. The thumb throttle on the BD-36
actually looks sturdier. It's slightly different. Any clues?
I can still use the thumb throttle, it's just a little out of sorts.
The Aotema runs fast, scary dangerous at 48 v. I'm assuming these are round cells, but they are pretty light for round cells.
Don't know if it's A123 or 18650. I'm not technical
actually looks sturdier. It's slightly different. Any clues?
I can still use the thumb throttle, it's just a little out of sorts.
The Aotema runs fast, scary dangerous at 48 v. I'm assuming these are round cells, but they are pretty light for round cells.
Don't know if it's A123 or 18650. I'm not technical
needWheels
1 kW
- Joined
- May 27, 2008
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RTLSHIP, you must have the older BD36 which did near 25 @ 36v vs the newer ones that only do 25 on 48v
Your bms probably limits the draw to 2C before cutoff, so at 15a, it's cutting off at 30a which is not enough for the 35a controller on the bd36 during hard starts and fast acceleration. I hope my 20ah pack has just enough "headroom".
How much range do you get off the 15ah pack in miles? On either your BL or BD... ?
Your bms probably limits the draw to 2C before cutoff, so at 15a, it's cutting off at 30a which is not enough for the 35a controller on the bd36 during hard starts and fast acceleration. I hope my 20ah pack has just enough "headroom".
How much range do you get off the 15ah pack in miles? On either your BL or BD... ?
No long range tests yet because I want to break it in first. This is what many advise. yes my BD-36 does around 25 mph w/ 36v SLA. I figure the BMS is shutting down. This BD-36 can draw alot of amps when accelarating hard. It's an inefficient power hog. Like the 1960's & 70's cars. Powerful 32.2 mph w/ some wind. I weigh 170# and wasn't in an aerodynamic posture.
It could do 35 mph w/ no pedaling
It could do 35 mph w/ no pedaling
Dogman. my 48 v 15 ah is in fact pouched cells (99.9% certain). Behind the duct tape is a thin plastic shield. After the shield there is gray colred mushy like pouch. Same gray color as the duct tape. Best way to describe it is mushy/saggy like.
BMS may not be movable as there is no discovered slack in the thin BMS wiring. The stock BD36 controller must be able to draw more than 35 amps, as my pack shut down too easily.
Without bypass, only 20 ah packs will consistently work. At $445 (shipping & everything), this is a lower price than
most of the round cell vendor.
BMS may not be movable as there is no discovered slack in the thin BMS wiring. The stock BD36 controller must be able to draw more than 35 amps, as my pack shut down too easily.
Without bypass, only 20 ah packs will consistently work. At $445 (shipping & everything), this is a lower price than
most of the round cell vendor.
dogman dan
1 PW
Do you have a way to measure the total capacity? Obviously length of ride won't work, maybe a slow discharge then measure charge time and see if it is too short? If you have a few dead cells in one of the paralell groups, it would stress that group under load, causing enough voltage sag to trip the LVC.
I bought a car ampmeter for five bucks at harbor freight. Really crude, but put in line on the controller + input, it would tell you if you are pulling 20 amps, or 50. It's possible you just have a bogus high amp cutoff, but bad cells, unfortunately are more likely. If any pouches are puffy, they are bad.
I agree though, with the BD, a 20 ah pack is best, or for other motors with above 20 amp controllers.
I bought a car ampmeter for five bucks at harbor freight. Really crude, but put in line on the controller + input, it would tell you if you are pulling 20 amps, or 50. It's possible you just have a bogus high amp cutoff, but bad cells, unfortunately are more likely. If any pouches are puffy, they are bad.
I agree though, with the BD, a 20 ah pack is best, or for other motors with above 20 amp controllers.
I'll consider that. Yest afternoon I got up to 31 mph on BD36. With wind. I would not say cell felt puffy. It was defintiely not
round cells, either. I'm suspecting (hoping) that it's an overconservative BMS.
It's normal for BMS to get warm/hot. The plastic cover sticks a little to BMS, but once it's cool plastic cover is free again. When should BMS get hot etc. ?
round cells, either. I'm suspecting (hoping) that it's an overconservative BMS.
It's normal for BMS to get warm/hot. The plastic cover sticks a little to BMS, but once it's cool plastic cover is free again. When should BMS get hot etc. ?
dogman dan
1 PW
Bms gets warm when discharging, and really warm, may even melt the shrink wrap when balancing. When the bms gets warm while riding, it affects the cutoff, so if yours is getting too warm, it could be contributing to the problem. I have a bag on my cruiser that has an insulated top. When I ride that bike with the ping, I must leave the top unzipped, or I will start having cutoffs by the time I ride about 2 miles. Once I let the bms have some breeze, all is ok again. On my pack, I put the bms on a couple small spacers, to give a 1/4 of ventilation room on the bottom, and the box on my commuter has a few vents. With that setup, I have no problems even when it's 110F out there.
needWheels
1 kW
- Joined
- May 27, 2008
- Messages
- 481
RTLSHIP 31-32mph on a BD36 is impressive, yours must be much more aligned than mine.
Just remember you are running 59 volts through a 60v capacitor in that BD36's controller.
One day it might go "bang!"
Just remember you are running 59 volts through a 60v capacitor in that BD36's controller.
One day it might go "bang!"
needWheels, 32.7 mph yesterday. had to stop for traffic light. If you are thinking about switching to a brushless, beware.
I had 2 of them fail on me in 1 week with 48v.
I went almost 11 miles on my 48/15 pack in 40 minutes and decided that was enough. I opened my tool bag to charge pack and surprise!! The red + and black - charging wire came off their soldered spots and I couldn't figure which way to put them back.
Finally, as a temporary fix I put one of them the red+ on the BMS red and the black - near the back of the pack and charged w/ some tape holding them in place. Is this the right place to resolder them? What happen is that the bungee cords
holding down the tool bag tore the charging wires off. No major damage.
Of course I want a tool/tackle box on the rear rack, but the BMS is on sideways and means in would have to buy a big wide tool box. I want a smaller box. Need to make sure they are soldered in the right spots.
I had 2 of them fail on me in 1 week with 48v.
I went almost 11 miles on my 48/15 pack in 40 minutes and decided that was enough. I opened my tool bag to charge pack and surprise!! The red + and black - charging wire came off their soldered spots and I couldn't figure which way to put them back.
Finally, as a temporary fix I put one of them the red+ on the BMS red and the black - near the back of the pack and charged w/ some tape holding them in place. Is this the right place to resolder them? What happen is that the bungee cords
holding down the tool bag tore the charging wires off. No major damage.
Of course I want a tool/tackle box on the rear rack, but the BMS is on sideways and means in would have to buy a big wide tool box. I want a smaller box. Need to make sure they are soldered in the right spots.
