Ping 36v 20 ah, 5000 mile review.

[needWheels]

I won't be able to afford brushless for quite some time, maybe a year or two.
Hoping I can figure out how to change brushes without taking my fingers off next year.

I barely know anything about BMS but I found this

On the BMS board the battery negative connects to B-, the power (load) negative connects to P- and the charger negative connects to C-. Charger and load + connect to the battery positive terminal.

 

[RTLSHIP]

thanks needWheels. if my brushed controller didn't fail yet, may there is something wrong with my brushless hub wiring ?
It's rated at 63v. The Bd36 is 60v rated you say.

 

[dnmun]

should not be a red wire in the BMS. it is all on the bottom of the battery. the red wire for charging goes to the battery positive. pictures? how did it melt?

 

[needWheels]

RTLSHIP I am the wrong person to ask, I am only a few months ahead of you in learning.

I say the BD36 is 60v because I looked inside the controller at the caps and that's what they are rated.

Yours might be different depending on the year, mine was made in late 2006.

It varies across brands of course but the BD36 is notoriously very tough, except it uses alot of power and gets hot after extended use at 48v on hills, etc. I believe dogman had to give up the BD36 for summer use in New Mexico because it gets so toasty. I think brushless is more fragile than BD36 because the electronics and sensors are much more complex and more can go wrong.

 

[RTLSHIP]

Skinny battery wiring did not melt. It was torn of soldering position through rough handling or bungee cord. I figured it
out. Skinny red + goes by power red on BMS. Black goes by power - on BMS board. It can also be charged at negative and positive points at front and rear of pack, but should probably not be left there when riding.

 

[dogman dan]

Aww crap, maybe take a pic and post a new thread about the battery connections in the tech or battery section. These dang things are pretty vulnerable where the wires attach. Even the way I have mine set up, I'm suprised I haven't had a disconnect just from vibrations bending the wires where they solder on.


The bd36 is a good motor, I got 2000 miles out of mine, and it's still got half the brushes left. I have heard others say 5000 miles is the brush lifespan. Heat in the summer is my problem with mine, combined with a 15 mile uphill ride home. In the winter, my ah capacity drops, and I was barely making it home most days, but it's still a great motor as long as you are not trying for long range, or cross country riding. Even riding a bd36 in phoenix would be fine for 10 miles. Not that many ebikers ride more than 10 miles at a time, though it's common enough for us sphere people. We are kinda special.

A few things I do like better about my aotema brushless, is it has a better starting torque than the bd. So I don't have to pedal till I''m going faster, and can leave it in my ridiculously high top gear. The aotema is a sensorless system, so it lacks the halls and thier 5 chances for a bad connection. It runs lots cooler than the brushed, but we'll see if I get to ride this summer or ride the bus when it's 105.

 

[RTLSHIP]

Is it hot in New Mex yet? My 11 mile trip w/ 48v 15ah was a success except for the torn off soldering on the skinny charging cables. Took about 2 1/2 hours to fully recharge ( with tape holding skinny wires on).
I don't think I have any bad cells. What I felt inside the pach was likely insulation, not pouches.
11 miles in 40 minutes is pushing it on a new pack. But it's close to broken in.
Only 2 BMS shut downs as my thumb is getting better. 3 places where amp current rises most: 1) hard/sudden accelartion; 2) hills/incline; 3) headwind. This is well documented, also.

 

[needWheels]

dogman haven't they changed the BL model a few times now?
I know the BD was changed once. It used to be insanely fast (like 29 on 36v?) but not take hills.
They they "beefed it up" and it got slower.

But they seem to tinker with the BL model every year. BD is discontinued this year though, right?
Oh wait no, here it is, but look the controller is downgraded by 5 amps?
http://www.werelectrified.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BD36+Kit
At least they redid that ugly website!

 

[dogman dan]

hmm, I thought the bd was gone too. At least as a kit, it dissapeared for awhile, but new summer, new shipment I guess. I had the 2008 model bd 36's . One went 29 mph on 48v, the other about 27.

It is getting warm here, 99 the other day, but now back to about 95. After labor day is when we usually get two weeks of 105-115. Hope it's only 105 this year. We have .08 inches of rain this YEAR. Today the humidity is 3%. At a certian point, that "its a dry heat " thing backfires, and you start to turn into living jerky.

 

[RTLSHIP]

My BD36 with 36v will do around 24 or 25 mph with no wind. Typically I usually do not hit that top speed. With 48v SLA about
28 mph with no wind. With lifepo4 48v 30 mph.
Add or subtract a little to factor in wind. It's nice to read that the brushes go about 5,000 miles with normal wear. My hub has approx 2200 miles. One question: will a lower amp controller on the BD36 prevent BMS cutouts? I would imagine that
torque, acceleration and energy consumption would drop. Top speed might still be reached.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm not sure about the cutouts, it's the motor that wants to pull the amps when you get cutouts, so maybe not. I would think a higher amp controller would solve the controller cut outs, and replace them with bms cutouts :x The bd 36 has a harder time starting than the brushless motor for some reason, so when you stall it a bit, it cuts out. Less throttle, was my solution, and more pedaling on the start.

 

[needWheels]

I finally saw 28mph today but the headwind was getting a bit extreme.

I doubt I'll ever see 29 because my wheel isn't true enough and I don't ride with full 65psi, more like 50.

When I got back I borrowed a neighbors temp probe and the inside of the motor between the spokes was 123 !!!

That can't be good for it eh?

 

[dogman dan]

The magnets glue starts getting soft around 170-180 I'm told. Where you measured is where the coils are, and they can go a bit hotter than the magnets.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

Have you considered painting the motor black to aid radiative cooling?

 

[RTLSHIP]

Black color attracts sunlight. White repells it. If you own a black car in the summer, you will know what I'm thinking.
Step on the asphalt, with barefeet, in July.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm not sure of the physics of that black to radiate thing, but in the sun, black gains more heat for sure. I was going to paint my battery box white, but found when riding, the metal cools ok from the wind. We need cooling fins on motor hubs. I'm going to try a wet cloth wrapped around the hub when it gets hotter. Water definitely helps, a splash on my hub now, is instantly seen on the thermometer, dropping about 4 degrees.

 

[needWheels]

dogman do you think I should take the case off my controller and just let it sit naked in the small bag under my seat?

I forget what the conclusion was, if the cutoff after the rolling hills was because of my motor overheating or the controller?

Was it the motor overheating and therefore making the controller work impossibly hard, and dropping the 35A cutoff to a lower number? So cooling the controller would not help because the source of the problem is the motor?

Sorry I guess I sorta hijacked this thread (and your BD36 sale thread).
I guess we could use a dedicated BD36 thread like visforvoltage has a dedicated WE sub-forum.

 

[needWheels]

I don't like those black motors lol, I almost bought a golden motor but decided against it because I didn't like the black.

Too bad they didn't design it with vents and little fins to draw in air at speed.

 

[dogman dan]

With the bd controler, there is a heat sink on the back with some fins. I mounted mine so the fins faced into the wind so they could get cooler. Just don't put the controller in bag or box to waterproof and cut off air circulation to the heatsink.

When the motor gets hot, the resistance goes up in the windings, so then the motor draws more amps, working the controller so it gets hotter too. I could high amp cutoff my controller even when cold if I stalled the motor, so when it got hot, I could do it even easier. I just learned to feather the throttle.

I learned how to tell when the motor was too hot just by the way it climbed the hill. When the motor got too hot, it would get more and more sluggish. I found 10 mile rides would not ruin a bd36 even in 100 f weather. But in any weather, too long a hill can be a bad idea. The hottest I ever saw the motor I melted was on a 70 F morning, when I tried to ride the bike on the local single tracks in the mountains. 1/2 hour of steep climbing and I could smell melted epoxy.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

Black color attracts sunlight. White repells it. If you own a black car in the summer, you will know what I'm thinking.
Step on the asphalt, with barefeet, in July.

True, but if the motor is hotter than ambient, it should help on balance. It all depends on the balance between the suns radiation and it's own.

Anyway just a thought. I suspect most cooling is convective.

 

[needWheels]

It's kinda weird how they didn't design any venting for the motor at all
- it's not waterproof in the first place but yet they close it off anyway

dogman the heat levels you are reporting are with 36v or 48v ?

 

[davespicer]

When the motor gets hot, the resistance goes up in the windings, so then the motor draws more amps...

Think you might have meant "down", unless Ohm's Law changed while I wasn't looking (busy getting grey hair instead!)

 

[needWheels]

Heh I found that steveo did a mod like this to his motor...

Something a little less extreme might be useful though, even a small amount of airflow...

 

[OneWayTraffic]

When the motor gets hot, the resistance goes up in the windings, so then the motor draws more amps...

Think you might have meant "down", unless Ohm's Law changed while I wasn't looking (busy getting grey hair instead!)

LOL

Look at it like this. As the wire resistance goes up, then more of the work is converted into heat, which forces the controller to pump even more amps into the motor to maintain a set throttle speed.

 

[RTLSHIP]

I think these WE/Aotema hub motors do have some water resistance capabilities, but don't expect hub to withstand a monsoon. The inner heat is gradually attracted to the outer aluminum case and aluminum wicks away the heat gradually.
Of course, if your riding hard for a long time; the cooling process is probably delayed. I pretty for sure that aluminum cool much faster than steel.