Please recommend a high-powered e-bike

[FoxTrotZulu]

I think this guy just likes to argue and get lots of attention. He's done exactly the same thing on the UK-based Pedelecs forum over the past 2 weeks. He's managed to wind up some very knowledgable and helpful members there.

 

[minime]

According to their ebay listing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Voodoo-Ba...ah-Battery-Offer-50-Off-Free-Del/222410408271, they use high ah rated Panasonic Lithium cells and Tektro hydraulic disc brakes.

Panasonic makes some good cells.

Maybe they can give Details which cells are used. Nontheless a 52V 20Ah battery + charger for 500 GBP sounds quite cheap to me, you wouldn't be able to save much Money to built it on your own...

Even with not so good cells a 20Ah battery pack should do quite well with 30A max peak current (which I assume from a 1500W system)

The 50mph (80km/h) top speed doesn't sound like a good idea to me because the motor has to have a fast winding for that. Driving at a more reasonable 25mph this means less torque and less efficiency and more heat...

Gearing Looks to be 42t in fron (?) and maybe 11 in the rear, if it's just a cheap 7x or 4x freewheel maybe only 13 in the rear. You can pedal around 20-25mph at that gearing, but definitly not 40mph or 50mph...


True specs of the barkes should be given, They write Shimano here and Tektro there. At least the fronst brake needs to be high Quality if you ride qucikly and the fork must be able to withstand a good brake. 1800mm Rotors are okay, imho.

Good tires are very helful, too. Imo they are one of the most important and underrated parts of an efficient and comfortable and safe bicycle.

The offer is cheap and it will be difficult to beat that price siginficantly with your own built if you have to buy a new bicycle. My concern would be if it really offers what you want... Do you need a motor running up to 50mph? Do you need a 1kWh battery?
A cheap bike with a 1500W motor attached to it stays a cheap bike running faster than it was originaly designed for.

I posted my requirements in the first message.

I doubt I'll ever try to do 50mph with this bike but rather 25mph (either unassisted or with some assistance).

 

[minime]

I think this guy just likes to argue and get lots of attention. He's done exactly the same thing on the UK-based Pedelecs forum over the past 2 weeks. He's managed to wind up some very knowledgable and helpful members there.

I was courteous to everyone and remained civil even when I was personally attacked. The threads are there for everyone to read and make up their own minds,

One of the oldest members on that forum even commented on the amount of misinformation I had received from ill-informed, yet arrogant, forumers.

 

[danielrlee]

I think this guy just likes to argue and get lots of attention. He's done exactly the same thing on the UK-based Pedelecs forum over the past 2 weeks. He's managed to wind up some very knowledgable and helpful members there.

I was courteous to everyone and remained civil even when I was personally attacked. The threads are there for everyone to read and make up their own minds,

One of the oldest members on that forum even commented on the amount of misinformation I had received from ill-informed, yet arrogant, forumers.

I did say that (I'm not old though - only 36), but I also told you to stop focusing on motor ratings as an indicator of performance. Even if we forget for a moment that a 'rating' is almost meaningless, myopically concentrating on one component (i.e. motor) is only going to hinder you. An electric bike is a system of components, with each part contributing to and dictating the total system performance.

I admit that you have had a tough time on both of these forums, but your refusal to digest the information given to you is part of the cause, along with some of the incorrect information you might have been given, or correct information misinterpreted.

 

[minime]

I did say that (I'm not old though - only 36), but I also told you to stop focusing on motor ratings as an indicator of performance. Even if we forget for a moment that a 'rating' is almost meaningless, myopically concentrating on one component (i.e. motor) is only going to hinder you. An electric bike is a system of components, with each part contributing to and dictating the total system performance.

By oldest, I meant in terms of the number of posts which is usually indicative of how long you've been on the forum. And I stopped focusing on motor wattage; in fact I posted my requirements in this thread without ever mentioning motor wattage.

I admit that you have had a tough time on both of these forums, but your refusal to digest the information given to you is part of the cause, along with some of the incorrect information you might have been given, or correct information misinterpreted.

By your own admission, I was given incorrect information though you failed to publicly identify the culprit(s). Were you concerned that you would be trolled just as I was?

In any case, I am concerned that now that these people know where I live, they might go as far as to alert the local authorities that I am riding an illegal e-bike so I think I will stick with my road-legal Cyclamatic CX1.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

[flat tire]

Troll passability 8/10 entertainment value 1/10

 

[minime]

Troll passability 8/10 entertainment value 1/10

I see you've been insulting people on other threads too, even when they are trying to help you.

Ungrateful.

 

[teslanv]

You have a bad attitude and are quite rude and condescending.

I don't want your help.

You posted the thread IN A PUBLIC FORUM, and you'll get my advice until you're enlightened or I'm banned.

FT: Is this conversation really worth getting banned over?

Let's be civil fellas.

Edit: OK. Topic Unlocked.

 

[teslanv]

Hello everyone

I am looking to buy a new e-bike and would like your advice.

I live in the UK and I recently purchased my first, road-legal e-bike, a Cyclamatic CX1 (250w motor, 36v/8.8Ah battery) for 450 GBP from thesportshq.com. I find the Cyclamatic lacking in many ways and would like to get a new e-bike that meets the following requirements:

1. Bike type: Mountain
2. Max speed: at least 25mph (I intend to restrict the top speed to 20-25mph but I might destrict it from time to time)
3. Max Range: the greater, the better
4. Torque: the greater, the better
5. Budget: 1500 GBP (at most)
6. Rider size: I weigh 165 pounds at 5' 11" and usually carry a 10-20 pound backpack.
7. Terrain: mostly flat roads with asphalt
8. Waterproof (even though I'll avoid riding it in the rain).
9. Frame size: 18" - 20"

Thanks

So as others have said, I think you indeed would get far more value for your money if you were to build your hypothetical ebike as a DIY project. The other greatly valuable thing you would get out of the experience is a much better understanding on how an ebike and all of it's components work. By DIY, you are educating yourself on it's workings, and will be in a much better position to repair it WHEN it fails.

If you just want to pay someone else to build it (whether a standard "off-the-shelf" ebike, or a custom "built to your requirements" ebike, expect to pay about 2-3 times what you could build it for by purchasing parts and assembling yourself.

If you build it yourself, I think 1500 GBP is probably a pretty reasonable budget.

One of the least expensive options would be to get a 1000W DD Rear hub motor kit from ebay/alibaba. These kits (at least in the USA) sell for about $250 USD and are generally pretty straight forward to install. Add a 48V battery like the Hailong ("Shark") style packs, made with Samsung 30Q or 25R or Panasonic PF cells, and that is capable of outputting 30A to the controller, and you pretty much have a rock-solid ebike set-up for well under $1000 USD. This set-up is a great building block, as each component is relatively easy to upgrade individually, if your needs change.
Want more torque: Upgrade the controller to a 40A version. (Though it would also be wise to upgrade the battery, in that case to one that can output higher current.)
Want more range: Upgrade the battery to a larger capacity Triangle battery (48V-20AH+)
Want higher speed: Buy a higher voltage battery (72V, depending on what your controller supports)
Want higher performance overall: Upgrade the motor to a wider stator version. Something like the Leaf 1500W or the MXUS 3000W, and also plan on getting a better controller and battery.

The thing to keep in mind in general, is that the motor performance is largely dependent on the battery's ability to output power (read CURRENT) and the controller's ability to "push" that power to the motor. In other words, you could buy the most massive "5000W" motor, and choose to feed it low power from a wimpy battery and controller, and the motor will perform like a smaller 1000W motor, because that's all the power the motor receives. Likewise, you can take a "1000W" motor, and feed it ridiculous amounts of power from a high-performance battery & controller, and it will perform similar to the "5000W" motor (up to the point where it overheats). The main difference between the "1000W" motor and the "5000W" motor is it's ability to handle higher current, and the time it takes to overheat.

I go into much more detail about all these aspects of motor/controller/battery on my website. https://kinayems.com/Support/HowFastHowFar

 

[ultralight001]

I'm just going to come into this thread out of nowhere. If you want to buy a bike, remember three things:
The quality will be poor for the price.
You could build a fantastic bike with your budget in comparison, and it is very easy. Plus, we would help you, at least I would, every step of the way.

Get an ebay 48V 1000W kit. They are quality kits and do not fail.
Then, go to a cycle shop and buy a good mountain bike, not a walmart bike.
Buy a battery.

Then all you do is change the back wheel (takes 2 minutes) plug a few simple connectors together and take off.

This should all easily be done under 1000 pounds, with a much better bike than an ebay seller could give for twice the price.

Heck, I'd build a bike for you and ship it at a much better price just to help out. I think a few other members here would too.

 

[wesnewell]

Then, go to a cycle shop and buy a good mountain bike, not a walmart bike.

In all the years I've been around, I've yet to see a Walmart brand bike, so there's no way he can buy a Walmart bike. Walmart doesn't manufacture bikes. I have bought several bikes at Walmart. They sell a large variety of bikes manufactured by many different manufacturers. The oldest one I have is ~ 5 years old now with a 48V 1000W motor on it running 24s lipo. Got about 20K miles on it at speeds up to 61 mph. The newest one has a 3000W motor also running 24s lipo. Both are rock solid frames capable of carrying me when I weighed 270 lbs.

 

[flat tire]

I've had a bike from Walmart. I shop at Walmart sometimes and I will look at their bikes or when feeling silly ride them around the store (lol).

You do NOT want those bikes. RUN, and do not look back.

Do NOT buy a bike at Walmart. Yes, it will probably last an indeterminate amount of time even at high speed but they are really crappy bikes made without regard for anything but reducing expenses as far as possible. The target market are people who don't know bikes. You don't want those bikes. If they have suspension, it is as crappy as suspension gets. The bearings and stuff are all junk and poorly lubricated, the human power parts are bottom barrel, crude, and not worthy of even having been made in the first place. The frames usually aren't dangerous for their intended purpose of being propelled by a human at less than 20 MPH, but they are made of crappy alloys and I wouldn't want to trust one hauling ass. And as you've probably inferred if you're still reading, the build quality is about as bad it can be while still serving some useful purpose.

The best way, by far, to get a bike that's a good value is to buy used. Cycling enthusiasts often own several bikes and buy and sell frequently. Craigslist, Kijiji et al all have a big rotating pool of bikes especially if you're near a big city. It doesn't matter if you don't know much about bikes. If the bike's price sounds reasonable and it rides well and looks well kept after, it's probably OK. If things are wrong with it or it makes noises or whatever that's good because those are usually inexpensive fixes and you can negotiate.

 

[wesnewell]

Yes, I do want them. That's why I have them. They are the best bikes to put a motor on with steel dropouts. No way in hell am I going to trust my life to a flimsy ass light weight bike when I weighed 270lbs.

 

[teslanv]

Umm...
Bought from walmart...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66978
[youtube]kIo0g0OSYy8[/youtube]

 

[Hardergamer]

Wow! can you believe what the thesmallgreenroom.com is claiming?...

"Our bikes can literally take you up just about any hill with a top end of 50mph on the 1500W version and 75mph on our 5000W versions. Travel distances vary but the average is 65 miles to 115 miles unassisted"

The first bike is claiming!!
"Battery: 52V 21ah 50+ mph Average range 65 Miles!"

Don't you agree a little over the top?

https://www.thesmallgreenroom.com/high-performance-electric-bikes

 

[flat tire]

I can't help the people who think a Walmart bike is acceptable. Just because it works, doesn't mean it's good.

 

[wesnewell]

I can't help the people who think a Walmart bike is acceptable. Just because it works, doesn't mean it's good.

That's ok. We don't need your kind of help with statements like that. Can you not understand that Walmart is NOT a bike manufacturer. They just sell many bike brands. Just like many other sporting goods stores like Target, Dick's sporting goods, etc., etc. Brands that have been around for a hundred years or more. And I don't care what bike you buy, it will most likely need components replaced to be suitable for your use, so all you should really care about is the frame and dropouts. I've replaced the wheel set, tires, seat, handlebars on every bike I've used. And I'd have to do the same on probably any bike I bought, no matter where I bought it or how much I paid for it.

 

[teslanv]

Flat Tire, you will find lots of company on your side of the "Bike Quality" spectrum. But there are lots of folks on ES who have built projects with "Bike-Shaped Objects" and have had fine success, including myself.

I've got a buddy who built a 3000W/30MPH fat bike with a Mongoose Hitch Fat Bike "Walmart" frame. He's already logged over 6000 miles on the bike (in all kinds of inclimate weather, no less), and after wearing through a few sets of the "knobby" tires, and finding a good set of road tires for it, it has needed only light maintenance.

The benefit to using "cheaper" frames sold by stores like Walmart is that often times they are made from Steel, which does tend to hold up better when electrified. Those who scorn such bikes often do so because of the low quality components and heavier weight. But of course weight is relative, when you are adding a 20-lb hub motor and 15-lb battery into the mix. And as for cheap components, I choose to upgrade these on my own bike, so really I'm just buying the frame and scrapping the rest. Other folks don't mind plastic pedals, and cheap cranksets and headsets. When those parts wear out to the point of being unusable, they replace them.

 

[minime]

Wow! can you believe what the thesmallgreenroom.com is claiming?...

"Our bikes can literally take you up just about any hill with a top end of 50mph on the 1500W version and 75mph on our 5000W versions. Travel distances vary but the average is 65 miles to 115 miles unassisted"

The first bike is claiming!!
"Battery: 52V 21ah 50+ mph Average range 65 Miles!"

Don't you agree a little over the top?

https://www.thesmallgreenroom.com/high-performance-electric-bikes

This bike was even featured on a morning show in the UK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdXahSoUo4.

On teslanv's website https://kinayems.com/Support/HowFastHowFar, at the subsection titled The Calculus of How Speed affects Range it says that a bike with:
a) curb weight of 330 lb
b) traveling on level ground

... requires 372 Watts of power to travel at 20 MPH (21.5 Watt-hours per Mile).

Given that the battery pack is 52V/21Ah (1092 watt-hours), then the unassisted range at 20mph (under the aforementioned conditions) should be around 50 miles. [1092 watt-hours / 21.5 (watt-hours per mile) = ~51 miles]


Now, in my case, the curb weight is lower. Specifically:
a) Voodoo Hoodoo bike weight: ~15kg
b) Kit weight (+battery): ~20kg (I made that up, not sure if it's accurate)
c) Rider weight: 85kg (75kg bodyweight and 10kg backpack)

The curb weight is 120kg (or 264lb) which is about 80% of 330lb. Does this mean that the watt-hours per mile decrease as well?
For example: 298 (or 80% of 372) Watts of power to travel at 20 MPH [15 Watt-hours per Mile]

Given that the battery pack is 52V/21Ah (1092 watt-hours), then the unassisted range at 20mph (under the aforementioned conditions) should be around 72 miles. [1092 watt-hours / 15 (watt-hours per mile) = ~72 miles]

 

[minime]

Plus, we would help you, at least I would, every step of the way.

Thanks for the support. My initial impression of the forum was a bit disappointing (based on the responses I received...). Now the DIY route seems more and more attractive.

Heck, I'd build a bike for you and ship it at a much better price just to help out. I think a few other members here would too.

Actually, I did ask people on the pedelecs forum if they could build an e-bike for me. There was this one guy, very knowledgeable, but it didn't work out.

Get an ebay 48V 1000W kit. They are quality kits and do not fail.

The bike I was considering buying was £1533. That is, £550 for a brand new Voodoo Hoodoo, £835 for the 52v 1500w kit (including battery) and I guess the remainder (around £150) was for putting everything together and providing support. Given that most kits on ebay are around that price, how I do get better value for my money by building the bike myself?

 

[minime]

@teslanv
Sorry for not replying sooner. I just realised that the thread had been unlocked and order had been restored.

1. Great website, very informative and aesthetically pleasing. Succint too; no walls of text to overload you with info, sometimes irrelevant to the topic at hand, and confuse you even further.

2. Building the bike myself would be a great learning experience and learning how to service the bike is high on my to-do list. But I am concerned that missing one little detail (because of my inexperience), might result in an injury or even cost me my life.

If you just want to pay someone else to build it (whether a standard "off-the-shelf" ebike, or a custom "built to your requirements" ebike, expect to pay about 2-3 times what you could build it for by purchasing parts and assembling yourself.

The bike I was considering buying was £1533. That is, £550 for a brand new Voodoo Hoodoo, £835 for the 52v 1500w kit (including battery) and I guess the remainder (around £150) was for putting everything together and providing support. Given that most kits (of similar specs) on ebay are around that price, how I do get better value for my money by building the bike myself? Or is it that the difference in quality between the Leaf 1500w kit and the kit used in that bike is so great that the DIY route is justified?

Also, what's your opinion of this kit? (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1500W-Electric-Bike-Kit-inc-52V-21ah-Battery-121-Build-Assist/222440803370)
It is the same one used in the Voodoo Hoodoo above. Others have commented that the technical data posted are somewhat non-sensical.

 

[teslanv]

Building the bike myself would be a great learning experience and learning how to service the bike is high on my to-do list. But I am concerned that missing one little detail (because of my inexperience), might result in an injury or even cost me my life.

The far greater risk, is the inattentive driver, I'm afraid. You could have the perfect ebike, Mass-produced, or DIY, and it won't matter when someone pulls out in front of you.

But I understand your concern.

I am of the opinion, that I would rather know everything there is to know about a bike that I built, than to trust that the manufacturer did it right.

Really the best advice I can give, (And most other DIY builders on ES will give) is to research and learn all about not only the electrical systems, but also bicycle maintenance in general. And then take it easy when you get started. Go slow, and get a feel for the bike. You will quickly discover it's inefficiencies. Any you cannot go too overboard on braking systems, with an Ebike. If you do nothing else, give it great stopping ability.

 

[MadRhino]

Yep. When you ride a lot of mileage, the check up is a daily routine. So, buy it or make it, you have to know your bike and be able to service it.

 

[Sbarsby]

Hi,
I did a DIY conversion using a Bafang 250W motor kit purchased from Grin Technologies (including console and controller), an 8-speed Alfine internal rear hub, and a Patterson 2-speed transmission in a PAS set-up. These are combined with a Hailong-3 48V 17.5Ah battery from Empowered Cycles. Riding for speed, I can get 75 miles at 21mph (I'm working) using 10.5Wh/mile. Finished a 2-day ride on a gravel trail with friend yesterday while conserving energy, I could have gone 250mi on one charge. Have over 1,300 miles on the system in the last 3 months.

 

[MadRhino]

Good info, and shure a good bike that you have built. Yet the thread is about high power ebike recommendations, and you are talking about the opposite.