Poll: Should Windsor Crack Down On Ebikes?

Chalo said:
The same rationale allows pickup trucks on the bike path as long as they go slow enough.

I don't know about your area, but around here there are metal posts at the entrance of all bike paths that only allow things that fit in a lane to get through.

I don't like electric scooters and you would never see me on one but I have no right to regulate others based on what I like and what I dislike. Even if they are crappy in so many ways, I don't see any reason why they should be banned from bike paths if they respect the same rules as the others.

Heck, I would allow any zero-emission vehicule on the bike paths as long as they fit in a lane and respect the speed limits. Zeros and Brammos on the bike paths? why not if they respect the speed limit.

And if weight is factually demonstrated to be a risk for others, than impose a weight limit.

Bottom line is it that rules have to be based on evidence and they have to be easily measurable to be enforced.
 
haha Chalo
e-bikes are chiefly the domain of eccentric hobbyists, crackpots who think they know better than anyone, and a few folks who are too weenie to ride normal bikes
lol im pretty sure most of us here are all three of those..... :mrgreen: personally i just wont ride a weenie bike (road bike), which make my bike very heavy.......

Anyway yeah I would agree that Zero emissions should be the target, and i am in favor of a speed limit. if your not "bothering" anybody , u should be allowed. 2-stroke hurts my lungs therefore bothers me. and so does noise.,

I generally stay off the paved multi use trails. I ride back roads, single track, turkey trails, and residential mainly. But then again if i did go on the bike trails i would be the only one around , save for some mothers pushing thier strollers, which i give a wide berth.

We have a very strong car culture here in winterpeg
 
I'm in Ontario, cities can ban electric bikes, road use too. Yield to the foot traffic, leave the asphalt & ride the grass, you got the power. Ruff ride? Then slow down.

Start the trail ban with earbuds. Include dogs as this leads to shit in the grass where I'm going to yield. Ban trail smoking too, way less potheds, too stoned to know an ebike from a motorcycle (no smoking on trails is law here & only 3 miles of trail). No peddle bikes, as its far too dangerous of getting a roller skate in the spokes. Ban skates too as they got no bell. Board riders stay on the roads, far too loud for the trails. All pedestrians must wear at least one mirror in case the cops are chasing ebikers. Fuk it, close the trails.

Second point: Electric bikes have spokes, scooters have cast wheels.

Third: Separate bikes & cars. Create easements into the residential blocks so all bikes are out of the traffic. You cannot win any argument against cars or the taxpayers. Face the politic reality. Double the routes next year as they are too busy. Don't get conned into "designed" failure that politicians are real good at.

City of St. Catharine's modified 4 narrow lanes on a main artery (wagon width lanes from the stoneage) into bike lanes each side, 1 car lane each way & turn lanes at the lights. Canadian Tire complained & forced it back to original. Toronto has done the same, bikes caused taxpayer waste, NOT the planners looking for overtime.

Fourth: Find solutions, get slowpokes off the arteries with sensible alternatives.

I ride year round, no economical alternative for groceries.

God pound him, he ain't a yes vote.
 
El_Steak said:
Chalo said:
The same rationale allows pickup trucks on the bike path as long as they go slow enough.

I don't know about your area, but around here there are metal posts at the entrance of all bike paths that only allow things that fit in a lane to get through.

I bet a nice loud Harley Davidson would fit fine, then. Or a whole mob of them.

Chalo
 
I've watched and been a part of bike paths packed with various motorcycles and motorcycle taxi, and motorcycles with BBQ trailers and motorcycles hauling crates of chickens and things on bike paths with bicycles and pedestrians. It honestly worked just fine. I would prefer they were all electric rather than the noisy stinky ones, but it seemed to work out fine, even in places in china with way higher people density on the paths than any bike paths I've seen in the US.

I think its because its how you're using what your riding that is all that matters.
 
In Asia, anything goes, brother
Then again, in Canada, nobody goes to jail for anything
The guy who stole my truck stole 16 vehicles prior

I mean, even if you get a $100 ticket once a year because a leftist complains to his government friends due to having nothing better to do than powertrip naghate on people, it's still cheaper than buying gasoline and maintenance.
I haven't had a car on the road since 2006 and I just use my mother's crossover once a week to get rice and vegetables but we replaced 2 shocks and it cost $800 even with buying the shocks half price, and that doesn't even include the springs, just the sealed shock units.
 
liveforphysics said:
I've watched and been a part of bike paths packed with various motorcycles and motorcycle taxi, and motorcycles with BBQ trailers and motorcycles hauling crates of chickens and things on bike paths with bicycles and pedestrians. It honestly worked just fine. I would prefer they were all electric rather than the noisy stinky ones, but it seemed to work out fine, even in places in china with way higher people density on the paths than any bike paths I've seen in the US.

I think its because its how you're using what your riding that is all that matters.

In the USA, the stinkers already have 60% of the surface area of an average city (rights of way plus parking). I think setting some spaces off limits to them is a higher priority than letting them have even more.

On the bright side, bicyclists and e-cyclists have access to most of that 60% and it connects to everything.

Chalo
 
I ride streets a lot. yesterday i took Red River from Manor to 6th, and west on 6th to mopac area. Would I feel safe limited to 20mph? No. But that is the perspective I am using since that is the legal ebike limit. I rode it at 30-34mph on a few stretches, in order to change lanes and make my turns and not be an obstacle.

I agree streets are usually faster and much more direct. It's a balancing act.

I just think to say that it's 'reasonable' to ban ebike from bikeways is not cool at all. The only ebikes out there (realistically, and other than mine) they are all limited to 20mph or so, some even 15mph. There is nothing dangerous about them on bikeways/paths, especially if you are allowing the no-brake fixie riders who are oblivious to everyone else.

You are right that it seems ebikes are not catching on in Austin, even though it's one of the most ideal places for them. There is a strong "self-propelled/ human powered" reasoning behind why cycling is as popular as it is here. If you are a transportation cyclist here, chances are the #1 reason you like it is because it DOESN"T have a motor, or because it's so cheap ($150 bike off craiglist is all you really need).

I've been around, in cycling for years, as a racer, commuter, and now ebiker. (Only been in Austin about 2-3 years) Maybe I'm just one of those eccentrics. But the way I see it is that I don't think most people want to exercise every time they want to go somewhere, and bikes have the best access and most convenience out of any other transportation mode in the city. Normal cycling is clearly too slow to feel safe (to me) on most roads. So yeah, an ebike is the answer, I believe.


We really need to get down to the root of the issue here. It's really not about ebikes. It's really about pedestrians and bikes. They don't mix well when the usage is above a certain level. But we want to let both use the path.

I still don't know why, if we can enforce ebikers from not using a path, why can't we instead enforce safe riding by all bikers? Both require a patrolman to be present and able to 'chase' the offender. Does it really matter that the bicycle has a small quiet, zero emmission motor? All other variables are essentially equal with pedal bikes.
 
veloman said:
We really need to get down to the root of the issue here. It's really not about ebikes. It's really about pedestrians and bikes.

Agree 100% VM. I think it's about decades (generations?) of pedestrians being abused by "scorchers" on pedal bikes. Today, the peds can't really attack cyclists successfully, but the "new" ebikes are an easy target. A tiny minority not organized with any political voice...



They don't mix well when the usage is above a certain level. But we want to let both use the path.

I assume this is only a cultural thing... probably EVerybuddy here has already seen these sorts of bike "rush hour" vids from the EU with peds and bikes of all sorts appearing kinda seamless...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_o3chL8phA
[youtube]K_o3chL8phA[/youtube]
 
GASP! They allow gas scooters on the bikeway!?!?!

haha, well, the point is that it looks like they share it safely. Why not a 20mph ebike?

I don't think I saw one altercation between anyone in that 1 hour time lapse video. Pedestrians are observant and know how to walk. Talk about a ton of people moving around safely and efficiently!

It's quite amazing how quiet it was when there wasn't a gas scooter, birds chirping.....
 
Missed this thread. Chalo, my friend, you are on fire!
The problem isn't the pedestrians or the ebikes. The problem is the trails.

I certainly don't think China is super advanced with most things, but I did notice some thoughtful ways they organized their traffic. On what I call City center thoroughfares, the cars were in the center, and as vehicles got smaller and slower, they organized further towards the outside. Filling in this way and that depending on what was there and coming from behind.

In places (on the outside edges) they only wanted pedestrians, there were trees, and pavers, and other such minor obstacles which in my opinion made for better, more interesting walking, but were certainly not conducive to any bike, or ebike, or rollerblader, or whatever other form of rolling hazard to pedestrian.

Problem in the USA (don't know much about Canada) is that we actually think our drivers, and walkers, and for that matter city planners should do their business with a big mac or mobile in their hand and not need to think. Cater to the lowest common denominator. We even prefer thoughtless trail design: Asphalt... dump, screed, roll, repeat.

You want traffic to organize in a certain way, build a better trail.
 
http://www.windsorstar.com/news/WITH+bike+debate+picks+speed+Windsor/6873167/story.html
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/06/30/proposed-e-bike-ban-sparks-debate/

Proposed e-bike ban sparks debate

WINDSOR, Ont. — Although e-bikes are known to be silent, they’re at the centre of a heated debate within the community that has many voicing their opinions loud and clear.

City council has received a recommendation by the city’s Environment and Transportation Committee to change existing traffic bylaws to ban e-bikes from all sidewalks and multi-use trails.

“I think it’s bull crap because, I mean, if it’s a bike path, you should be able to ride on it on your bike, and they classify these as bikes,” said Chris Belcher, who has owned several e-bikes for the past four years and was riding on Windsor’s waterfront paths Saturday.

Brian Tucker, owner of Scoot-A-Long of Windsor Electric Bikes, said the proposed ban is not fair because e-bikes have been deemed both federally and provincially as being the same as bicycles and so therefore, riders should enjoy the same privileges as cyclists.

“I think it’s kind of a foolish thing. The government gives the city money for bicycles and bike trails and here we are spending it on trails I may soon not be able to go on,” said Tucker. “One or two or three people complaining might mean the rest of us lose our freedom to travel on these roads that we have also paid for. It doesn’t make sense to me.”

But he said he does agree with part of the ban – that e-bikes shouldn’t be allowed on sidewalks.

“Sidewalks are clearly for people to be walking on and going about their business, but the bike trails, they’re there for everyone’s enjoyment,” said Tucker.

Supporters of the ban say because e-bikes can travel at a high speed but remain very quiet and almost silent, this poses safety risks because people have been surprised and frightened by them. But Tucker argues some bicycles can travel up to twice the speed as an e-bike and make even less noise.

Ward 6 Coun. Jo-Anne Gignac said she requested a report looking into the matter over a year ago after she received a number of complaints from residents about e-bikes becoming a hazard.

“I felt very strongly that we needed some clear guidelines to where they would be acceptable,” Gignac said about requesting the report. “I think runners and walkers are entitled to maneuver along recreational trails without worrying about something swooping up on them and knocking them over.”

Linda Soderberg, who brings her two-year-old daughter, Ebba, to walk along the riverfront trails almost every weekend said she worries about her daughter being on the same pathway as an e-bike.

“I’m for the ban because of the little one. It’s happened more than once that they’ve been coming very fast and they came very close because you don’t hear them,” said Soderberg.

Gignac said she agrees a ban should be in place for e-bikes to be prohibited from sidewalks and city trails and disagrees with Windsor police who have voiced concern that there aren’t adequate bike lanes for e-bikes to ride on instead.

“I think the city is building on its bike lane infrastructure and I think that before we had bike lanes at all, we had cyclists who maneuvered on the roads quite well,” said Gignac. “And they operate quite well in other municipalities that probably don’t have as many designated bike lanes as we do.”

But Ward 4 Coun. Alan Halberstadt, who sits on the Windsor Bicycling Committee, agrees with the point Windsor police are raising.

“There’s no doubt that we’re deficient in our bike lane infrastructure on the roads. I think the police raise a good point that our cycling network is not mature enough,” said Halberstadt.

He also sits on the city’s Environment and Transportation Committee and was part of the unanimous vote to recommend changes to the existing traffic bylaws with regards to e-bikes. He said he voted in favour with some reservations because he agrees the trails and sidewalks are not meant for e-bikes, for the safety of pedestrians, but feels council needs to enhance bicycle routes for the safety of the e-bike riders.

“Some of them are saying we’re kind of throwing them to the wolves because we don’t have the infrastructure on the roads to accommodate them, and I can see that point for sure,” said Halberstadt.

Riding along the waterfront on her e-bike Saturday was Suzanne Woitowich, who often rides there to travel across the city. She said she has become reliant on the route and fears for her safety if she is forced to ride on the road if the ban is put in place.

“It would just be unsafe for me. I really can’t imagine having to go on the busy roads and I think a lot of people would be prone to accidents if they had to travel on the roads,” said Woitowich.

Anita Czilli frequently runs on the trails along the river and said she disagrees with the ban and doesn’t mind sharing the space with e-bikes.

“They’re quite careful and I’ve never had a problem – the same as bikes. I think this is what it’s made for. This is the place for e-bikes.” said Czilli. “I’m more careful when I’m driving and I see them on the roads.”

The recommendation will go before council at the July 9 regular meeting. Tucker, who will be attending with other e-bike enthusiasts who oppose the ban, will be voicing his concerns about the amendment at the meeting.

Ward 5 Coun. Ed Sleiman, who also sits on the Environment and Transportation Committee and voted in favour of the recommendation, said he feels the decision to impose the ban will be made during the meeting and that this has been a long time coming.

“My gut feeling is that it’s going to be unanimous that it’s no place for e-bikes on sidewalks or trails,” said Sleiman. “The trail is meant for recreational things and honestly, the e-bike and sidewalks and trails are not a good mix.”
 
http://windsorite.ca/2012/07/ebikes-banned-from-windsors-shared-paths-multi-use-trails-and-sidewalks/

Windsor City Council voted Monday night to ban power assisted vehicles (eBikes) on the City of Windsor’s shared paths and multi-use trails such as the riverfront and the Ganatchio trail.

The ban will be in effect unless certain paths/trails are specifically designated by Council as “eBike Friendly”.

Council has asked City Administrators to prepare a report outlining if any trails within the city’s park system can be eBike friendly. Should any of the City’s trails be designated, they will have a set speed limit of 10km/h.

The Province of Ontario legalized eBikes under a pilot program in 2006 and permanently permitted them to be operated like bicycles as of 2009. Operators do not need a license or insurance but must wear helmets and their vehicles must be equipped with pedals.

eBikes and power assisted vehicles were also banned from city sidewalks.
 
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/31/e-bike-not-a-licence-to-drive-drunk-police-say

LONDON -- The environmentally friendly e-bike could be the last refuge for drunk drivers as technology continues to accelerate ahead of Canadian law.

Because of conflicting provincial and federal laws about e-bikes, there seems to be a loophole for drivers with suspended licences to get back on the road.

The Criminal Code of Canada says an e-bike is a motor vehicle, so riders can face impaired driving charges.

But the Highway Traffic Act of Ontario says an e-bike isn't a motor vehicle.

E-bikes look like regular bikes, scooters and limited-speed motorcycles but they're powered by electric energy or pedals and reach a top speed of 32 km/h.

"The question becomes whether it's a motor vehicle," said Richard Braiden, a London defence lawyer.

"It slips between the cracks of legislation."

Because e-bikes have pedals they're considered bicycles, London police Sgt. Ryan Scrivens said.

"They have to follow the rules of the road as bicycles. Stop at stop signs, they can't drive on the sidewalk, the driver has to be 16 years of age and wear a helmet," he said.

Because e-bikes are treated as bicycles, riders don't need licence plates or insurance.

And bicycle riders can't be charged with impaired driving, Scrivens said.

"It's the same as if someone was intoxicated riding a bike. "Unfortunately the definition of a vehicle is something that's designed to be propelled by muscular power. An e-bike qualifies because people can pedal an e-bike."

But if the pedals are removed or the bike is rigged to drive faster than 32 km/h, it becomes a limited-speed motor vehicle, and drivers can face criminal charges such as impaired driving, Scrivens said.

patrick.callan@sunmedia.ca

Twitter.com/CallanatLFPress
 
What a crock!
 
Jared Kolb, director of campaigns and membership with Cycle Toronto, said the term “e-bike” is too vague.

“You’ve got to divide it. There are electric scooters and pedal-assist bicycles. We’re okay with pedal-assist bicycles using bike infrastructure,” he said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1269596--when-is-an-e-bike-a-bicycle
 
Just wondering if this legislation is only aimed at scooter style ebikes? If so, why not just sell yours before it becomes law, if it ever does, and make a proper bicycle ebike?
 
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/02/28/star-editorial-e-bikes-dont-belong-on-trails-and-pathways/

Windsor, Ontario is attempting to ban ebikes from their multi-use trails. The local paper has been running a series of articles on the subject, and this is a poll on whether ebikes should have a license.
 
I voted no. Though what I see in this picture is a little different (weight), I sorta feel like most of these vehicles are of little difference than a high powered electric wheelchair. Of course, this may come as a bias.
"Instead, they agreed to open up some multi-use trails to e-bikers, provided they followed the rules and travelled no faster than 10 km/h." Seems a bit slow, but a speed limit at the right speed isn't ridiculous. But if there is a speed limit, it should apply to all movement, not just ebikers.

I don't fully understand how all this came down to a licensing concept other than someones want to make ebikes less appealing. Seems like a bitter concept to me.

The more I think about it, the more I think that that speed is insanely slow, runners often exceed that pace. Without a doubt, most cyclists would well exceed that speed.
 
Can you ride at 6mph? It sure is tough to keep it stable. After looking at the link, that's not an Ebike.......!

I ride when people are around at about 12mph and still get passed by bikes WITH NO MOTORS. No to mention the bladers. I followed a girl ( nice view) around a lake bike path 4 miles and she was doing 20mph at peaks and never less than 15.

So why would a Ebike have to go walking speed? They are nuts!

Dan
 
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