Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

[Doctorbass]

I have compiled many numbers to get usefull expectation of performances. This is an exemple:

Here is the stats i have compiled from the NEDRA website:

E.T. vs trap speed:

( to get in the 11s i should get a trap speed of about 115mph...

btw Luke, your numbers with the deathbike are matching very well too with that: !! ( 11.5 at 110 ) :wink:

 

[Doctorbass]

Excited to see your dyno plots and new time slips!

Yeah i will post these soon!

Doc

 

[Ohbse]

I'm certain your gearing change will pick up some mph, but as Luke so eloquently explained you're better off delivering maximum thrust as early as possible in the run.

Why did you not have phase current at 100% with previous gearing? Did it wheelie? Wheelspin?

Inevitably your potential performance will be limited by absolute power production, but this absolute limit is not the one that people run into first. Usually the problem is an inability to use available power when it matters most, right at the beginning! You have obviously done a lot to maximize your acceleration potential, but if you're serious about lowering that record (congratulations by the way) then that is where your biggest gains are still to be found.

If you're spinning the wheel, you need to gain additional traction by lowering tire pressure, reaching optimal tire temperature or using stickier rubber. If you're lifting the front then you need to deliver more leverage to keep the front down by moving CG forward. You can achieve this by relocating mass or you can increase total length. In your situation it's very possible that by carrying a LARGER battery you may reduce ET, because this mass is able to be located in an ideal location (as far forward as possible) and as it's active mass it reduces losses, delivering more overall power.

How much does the whole bike weigh currently?

 

[Doctorbass]

I'm certain your gearing change will pick up some mph, but as Luke so eloquently explained you're better off delivering maximum thrust as early as possible in the run.

Why did you not have phase current at 100% with previous gearing? Did it wheelie? Wheelspin?

Inevitably your potential performance will be limited by absolute power production, but this absolute limit is not the one that people run into first. Usually the problem is an inability to use available power when it matters most, right at the beginning! You have obviously done a lot to maximize your acceleration potential, but if you're serious about lowering that record (congratulations by the way) then that is where your biggest gains are still to be found.

If you're spinning the wheel, you need to gain additional traction by lowering tire pressure, reaching optimal tire temperature or using stickier rubber. If you're lifting the front then you need to deliver more leverage to keep the front down by moving CG forward. You can achieve this by relocating mass or you can increase total length. In your situation it's very possible that by carrying a LARGER battery you may reduce ET, because this mass is able to be located in an ideal location (as far forward as possible) and as it's active mass it reduces losses, delivering more overall power.

How much does the whole bike weigh currently?

You are right in your comments. The bike weight 191 pounds ( including the battery witch is 13 pounds) The CG as already VERY VERY low. To solve two problem, ( low mass on the front and reduce wheelie, i might extend the rear swing arm next summer. this will also help adding SERIOUS traction... I might use a mickey Thompson wide drag slick tire.

The reduced power ( also torque as well) is due to controlelr cutout problem witch seem to be solved now.

As i said, even with infinite acceleration, there is a minimum E.T for each trap speed.... so speed also matter.. however tghis is a question of ratio... and the actual records OF NEDRA members all follow that curve... i think the that physics law reveal that the more further you are from that curve in trap speed, the less effifient you are for the corresponding E-T...

Actually i have meet all these problems:
-wheel spinning,
-wheelie ( over 60% phase current it's a wheelie machine)
- CG not enough on the front...

I have solved all these for at least 50%


I did 12.2 at 85% torque witch mean i could do lower with 100% torque.. however the more i will be approaching the 10s, the more i will need to boost speed because acceleration will become impossible to maximize as 9.7 is the absolute E.t for a 92MPH on the 1/4...

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Ok last test with my NYX ONE

(205 5T, addapto at 350A ph 160A batt on a 17" wheel)

On flat

Measured with the Vbox 10Hz ultra accurate GPS:

0-60ft: 2.5s at 47km/h
1/8 mile: 10.5s at 101.8km/h
1/4 mile: 17.3s at 105.3km/h



--------------- Run 0005 ---------------
Time 16:58 Date 21/05/2017

Accel results
Speed(kmh) Time(s)
0-10 00.6s
0-20 01.1s
0-30 01.5s
0-40 02.0s
0-50 02.6s
0-60 03.4s
0-70 04.3s
0-80 05.2s
0-90 06.9s
0-100 10.1s
0-110 ----
0-120 ----
0-130 ----
0-140 ----
0-150 ----
0-160 ----
0-170 ----
0-180 ----
0-190 ----
0-200 ----

Accel Distance results
Distance(ft) Time(s) @Speed(kmh)
0-60 02.5 49.7
0-330 06.6 89.5
0-660 10.5 101.7
0-1320 17.3 105.3
Trg-120 ---- ----

Braking results
Speed(kmh) Time(s) Distance(ft)
60-0 09.4 79.2
100-0 14.1 183.5

User range
Speed(kmh) Time(s)
30-50 01.1
50-70 ----
0-100-0 32.5

Misc
Vmax 107.4kmh
Vavg 57.1kmh
AvgLatG 0.00G
PkLatG 0.88G
PkAccelG 0.74G for comparaison, my chevy volt is 0.42G acceleration
PkDecelG 0.56G
Trg-62kmh ----
Trg speed ----

for comparaison, my chevy volt is 0.42G acceleration

I still have margin on the adjustment... please remember this is with a torque setup :wink:

Doc

 

[torker]

I agree with getting the best accell in the first 60 ft. Lukes 11.50 at 110 seems to be close to perfect traction. I built and ran a v8 vw It was 2250 lbs. Ran 11.60 at 115 mph. 0to60 was 1.6 sec. Good traction but not as good as Lukes.

 

[st35326]

I feel like 95% of the bikes on this forum would be better served in doing a much shorter distances, such as 100 meters. 1/4 miles with ultra sticky 60 foot areas and water boxes are made for the likes of 300 mph top fuel and funny cars.

I suppose you could always extrapolate acceleration numbers out to about any distance after the fact.

 

[Doctorbass]

Guys i've beat my time at the Drag Track today with my NYX ONE !!!! 8)

best time:

0-60ft: 2.1s !!!!
1/8: 9.7s at 65.1mph
1/4: 16.3s at 70.5mph

WOW.. it was an amazing day!!!!
I have all time slip i'll post these!!

and... YES it's a 5T !! ( kv of 8.9) a torque monster!

I now wonder WHO can beat me on a hub motor ebike? 8)

Doc

My best run:

[youtube]xhBz0_BNXkY[/youtube]

 

[liveforphysics]

Great job Doc! I will do my best to see if I can beat it with my Nyx hubmotor bike.

 

[Doctorbass]

Great job Doc! I will do my best to see if I can beat it with my Nyx hubmotor bike.

Hey Luke your comment are well appreciated :wink: You definitively MUST record some score with a hub motor!..

The deathbike Version hub!

But guess what i still have some margin! i could remove 20 pounds of Farasis cells and go with the NEDRA lipo cells i use for my Zero drag motorcycle. And also replace the offroad tires for sime MaxXis hookworm..

Or, install the secret weapon!! : The Front wheel drive motor for 2WD with dual Max-E ! and get about 50% more power from teh start and 100% more after the 1/8 mile ( constant torque variable power)

The only real time i tried my 2WD NYX upgrade was at Vegas in 2015 and it was awsome

 

[litespeed]

Doc,

That is just amazing. Getting to 70.5 mph is crazy fast on a 5T.....looks like those mods paid off. So you are completely unlocked? On an unlocked MaxE I've seen 196 amps on 20s but sure isn't no where as fast off the line as yours but I weigh in at 210 lbs and have a 20s15 pack on board. I'm very happy with my 3.5T but sure wish I could have gotten a 4T, that is what I really wanted but not available at the time.

Luke,

I can't wait to see what a QS273 motor can do at 600+ amps.

Tom

 

[Doctorbass]

Doc,

That is just amazing. Getting to 70.5 mph is crazy fast on a 5T.....looks like those mods paid off. So you are completely unlocked? On an unlocked MaxE I've seen 196 amps on 20s but sure isn't no where as fast off the line as yours but I weigh in at 210 lbs and have a 20s15 pack on board. I'm very happy with my 3.5T but sure wish I could have gotten a 4T, that is what I really wanted but not available at the time.

Luke,

I can't wait to see what a QS273 motor can do at 600+ amps.

Tom

Yes completly unlocked.. anyway the warranty on all my 3 adaptto is expired now so time to unlock!! lol
I have added better quality large capacitors and some stack of 5 small 1uF ultra low esr caps on the neg and pos rail. the controlelr now have 5 miliohms ESR on the these rail!
I think this help to reduce the voltage overshoot that kill the fet when using top phase current.

The Adaptto is very impressing! with a motor of kv of 8.9 and a 17" wheel i can acheive up to 71MPH

The results i got yesterday match pretty close with in 0.5s error from the first test i made with the VBOX GPS:
--------------- Run 0006 ---------------
Time 17:05 Date 21/05/2017

Accel results
Speed(kmh) Time(s)
0-10 00.3s
0-20 00.8s
0-30 01.3s
0-40 01.9s
0-50 02.4s
0-60 03.0s
0-70 03.9s
0-80 04.9s
0-90 08.3s
0-100 08.9s
0-110 09.6s

Accel Distance results
Distance(ft) Time(s) @Speed(kmh)
0-60 02.4 49.7
0-330 06.4 85.2
0-660 10.2 122.0
0-1320 16.8 96.4


You can see that my times are pretty consistent here:

 

[Doctorbass]

According to this calculator and using my 1/8 time and speed, the 0-60mph is as low as 8.2s !!

Yes

0-60mph in 8.2s for my NYX ONE guys !

using
9.78s 1/8mile
65.16MPH

http://www.wallaceracing.com/0-60_equation.php

Doc

THIS IS QUICKER THAN MY CHEVY VOLT AT ANY POINT ON THE 1/4 mile !!!!

take a look to the drag time timeslip result you will see!
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet--Volt-Drag-Racing.html

Doc

 

[John in CR]

I now wonder WHO can beat me on a hub motor ebike? 8)

Why would you wonder that, since you're still not close to my 4+ year old HubMonster powered SuperV? My MidMonster powered commuting scooter with 3kwh of battery weight might be a close race though, since it tops out at only about 120kph.

 

[Doctorbass]

I now wonder WHO can beat me on a hub motor ebike? 8)

Why would you wonder that, since you're still not close to my 4+ year old HubMonster powered SuperV? My MidMonster powered commuting scooter with 3kwh of battery weight might be a close race though, since it tops out at only about 120kph.

John, my friend! I am talking about how QUICK not how fast If your beast is so quick please post us a time slip or a video with GPS or something that is independ of a C-A display or any other adjustable speed setting.. otherwise it will become ALOT difficult to believe every score that people anounce. NEDRA require that.. NHRA require that... why not E-S :wink:

Maybe you did that score but where did you posted the time slip? Luke did, Barent did, me did and many others did :wink: we wait for you since 4 years my friend

Doc

 

[John in CR]

Fast and quick. I embarrass motorcycles on a daily basis. When you're ready to make it interesting, then I'll go to the trouble of going to the track and getting enough evidence to satisfy the naysayers. I'm not into grandstanding, but I'm not going to sit idly by while claims I know to be inaccurate are made.

 

[Doctorbass]

Fast and quick. I embarrass motorcycles on a daily basis. When you're ready to make it interesting, then I'll go to the trouble of going to the track and getting enough evidence to satisfy the naysayers. I'm not into grandstanding, but I'm not going to sit idly by while claims I know to be inaccurate are made.

Why is that so much trouble to you to get your bike at the track?

This is up to you John...

Doc

 

[teslanv]

Fast and quick. I embarrass motorcycles on a daily basis. When you're ready to make it interesting, then I'll go to the trouble of going to the track and getting enough evidence to satisfy the naysayers. I'm not into grandstanding, but I'm not going to sit idly by while claims I know to be inaccurate are made.

 

[John in CR]

Fast and quick. I embarrass motorcycles on a daily basis. When you're ready to make it interesting, then I'll go to the trouble of going to the track and getting enough evidence to satisfy the naysayers. I'm not into grandstanding, but I'm not going to sit idly by while claims I know to be inaccurate are made.

Why is that so much trouble to you to get your bike at the track?

Crap weather with rain almost every day is the biggest issue. Then there's finding a suitable track, since the only one I know of that has drag racing once a week has a less than 200m shutdown area that ends in a wall. I've heard there's one an hour and a half away on the other side of the mountains.

This is up to you John...
Doc

So the bet amount for a 1/4 mile race is up to me then?

 

[steveo]

Do you guys have any suggestions on a tool or app to use to record drag times/acceleration etc?

This is long overdue, i'd like to post some date if i can

-Steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

Do you guys have any suggestions on a tool or app to use to record drag times/acceleration etc?

This is long overdue, i'd like to post some date if i can

-Steveo

I tried many.. but none give accurate results... ebike are pretty consistent across every run.. but the GPS based apps give like 20-30% error every time

The only GPS that give accurate results as i can compare to the track is the VBOX.. but it is expensive like an IXXAT for a sevcon!

The drag track is at about 35km from my home
and i drive to it every time..

He next one is at about 75km.. then 250km

Fortunatly the Pont Rouge dragway is a 1/4 mile track and not only a 1/8!

Doc

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

I find the 1/4 mile track to be best because usually at the end of the 1/4 mile you get a speed pretty close to your max speed

On teh 1/8 mile track you get usually 10-20% slower speed..

Doc

 

[John in CR]

Steveo,

For your own satisfaction and sharing, I'd think that video over a measured distance marked by landmarks seen in the video would be interesting for everyone. I'm not talking about my challenge to Dr. Bass, which will obviously require a track's time slip to go with on and off board video, and since he ignored my question I'm setting the amount at $500USD, enough to be interesting but a pittance compared to the time and money he's invested to make what I consider offensive claims.

FWIW Steveo I think you need to run your HubMonster at significantly higher voltage to show its 1/4 mile capability. Plus I think you'll want to drop the current down too, because I think it's a mistake to underestimate the effect of heat in the copper on top speed. An extreme torque motor, such as needed for dangerously hard launches and great 1/8th mile times is something like the 50mmX273mm motor I initially dubbed HubMonster in early 2012. The 1/4 requires high speed too, which is where the high speed high efficiency HubMonster you have will shine. It has low enough copper resistance to handle enough current to provide pretty awesome acceleration, but its still untouched (by you, me or anyone else) rpm potential makes it capable of scary high speed for an ebike, which is something needed for a truly respectable time in the 1/4.

Also, with high speed so important, be sure to practice your tuck position, because aero drag is a critical opponent.

 

[Doctorbass]

Steveo,

For your own satisfaction and sharing, I'd think that video over a measured distance marked by landmarks seen in the video would be interesting for everyone. I'm not talking about my challenge to Dr. Bass, which will obviously require a track's time slip to go with on and off board video, and since he ignored my question I'm setting the amount at $500USD, enough to be interesting but a pittance compared to the time and money he's invested to make what I consider offensive claims.

John, I think that is you that misunderstod:

The only thing you need is someone filming evidence that anybody can see that show your acceleration score that's it! marked distance, 1/4 mile track or time slip or accurate GPS.. that's all !
You dont need 1/4 mile time if you dont want to compare 1/4 mile time... You need onboard video OR off board video... Onboard is usefull if you have accurate GPS.. not an iphone! ... a GPS.. that if you dont have one you can borow one to a friend. (anyway if you use a iphone or android you will get probably lower numbers compare to a real GPS)

You dont need to invest $$$ to get proof... the drag track cost 10$ entry... a GPS that you borow cost zero$... you just have to use a part of your intelligence ( and i know you are) to find cheap way to do that like i did..

On your side the only video you shown us is you on a highway.. with poor onvoard video quality and filming angle and no speed displayed.. c'mon! John.. If you can put a hub monster on your bike witch is what you describe as higher performance hub motor, why the hell nobody can show it puting impressive numbers?..................

I know you can but you dont want to..... that is sad for the history and glory of that super hubmonster... :lol:

Doc

 

[steveo]

Thanks for your info John in cr and Doc.

I too like a nice high quality video and i've just never made the investment in a top quality camera. Probably the latest gopro would make night and day difference for me. But till then my note 3 or sj1000 chinesiem camera will need to do.

I just wanted a simple tool to set some sort of benchmark what my bike can do, without going to the track.

John, i think we had this conversation at one point but the adapptos are capable of getting the same speeds as you probably have seen on your bike at only 16 to 20s of lipo for example. This is oue of the unique features about them.. no more dangerious high voltages required.

-Steveo