Powerful Hub Motor for daily driver

[jayram]

First I would like to say HI to everyone. Second this forum is amazing. Now for my questions.

I am currently struggling with picking a hub motor. My top 3 are: Cromotor V3 (is v4 real or myth?), QSMotor 8kw (Not sure which version), Crystalyte TC100. I want to power through some hills.
I have not picked a voltage yet. It will likely be 72-96v+ based on what the motor can handle. I'll then head over to Lyen and see what he has on shelf or see about his custom work. Battery will be custom made to fit the controller and will use the raptor frame.

Goals:
Range: 15-20 Miles with hills.
Speed: 45mph minimum (Higher speeds preferred so I can ramp in to the hills).

This will be my daily driver to work, so reliability is a must.

Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated.

 

[Chalo]

What kind of motorcycle will you be converting?

 

[oatnet]

What kind of motorcycle will you be converting?

Churro, since you hate ebikes so much, why are you still here? Is it the only way you can get anyone to pay attention to you, or does picking on noobs like this make you feel better about yourself? Either way, your inferiority complex is showing.

Hi Jayram!

I haven't worked with the qsmotor or the Crown, but can confirm that the CroMotor and the xlyte 5403 will do what you are looking for. It is easy to make a 45mph ebike, making it reliable and safe takes a lot of skill. It is nice to make mistakes on a cheap slow bike first and find out what you like, before attempting the ultimate bike.

Keep reading other people's build threads and using the search feature to build up your perspective and design criteria. also note there is a handy "ignore" feature to block posts from people who don't have anything positive to add to the discussion.

-JD

 

[Simple818]

I'd say the mxus 3t or 4t will work great and but in a moto rim and tire. Head over to Kinaye-motors ports.com. A lyen 18fet on 18s 16ah multistars

 

[jayram]

What kind of motorcycle will you be converting?

Read my initial post and you will answer your own question.

Hi Jayram!

I haven't worked with the qsmotor or the Crown, but can confirm that the CroMotor and the xlyte 5403 will do what you are looking for. It is easy to make a 45mph ebike, making it reliable and safe takes a lot of skill. It is nice to make mistakes on a cheap slow bike first and find out what you like, before attempting the ultimate bike.

Keep reading other people's build threads and using the search feature to build up your perspective and design criteria. also note there is a handy "ignore" feature to block posts from people who don't have anything positive to add to the discussion.

-JD

I've been a lurker for a while now and will continue to read builds that spark an interest or have a key piece that I want to learn more about.
I'm confident I can build a safe and reliable bike. My regular bike and motorcycle both started with a frame and slowly put them together piece by piece. With many hurdles and learning opportunities. I think an e-bike is my next evolution in garage therapy.

Which motor have you enjoyed more? I do plan on abusing the bike on weekends with some a lot of trail riding.

I'd say the mxus 3t or 4t will work great and but in a moto rim and tire. Head over to Kinaye-motors ports.com. A lyen 18fet on 18s 16ah multistars

I've seen some really mixed reviews of the motor on ES. Most notably about QS out of the factory. I think if I never ready that threat I would have picked this one already. It seemed perfect. Of course this is why I am still debating motors.

 

[wineboyrider]

alanb has a build that's on the lines that you are looking at ...search for greyborg commuter

 

[dogman dan]

I Think what Chalo meant was,, the bike won't be street legal. Technically, and unregistered home made motorcycle, with pedals.

I also think it likely that Kansas cops likely won't give a damn, unless just your face is grounds to pull you over already.

45mph actually a bit modest for this kind of build, I'd likely just grab the cheapest big motor. In general, isn't that the Muxus 3000w? Controller capable of 72-120v, play with voltage to get the speed you like. Personally I think if 72v gets you 40 mph, it's plenty for street riding.

FWIW, 2000w on a Crystalyte H model motor, and only 48v will get you up the hills fine, but more like perhaps 20 mph up them. And it would fly under the cops radar a lot better than a bike going 40 mph up the hills.

And cost a lot less, because you won't need a huge, nearly impossible to carry battery to get decent range.

 

[wesnewell]

I'd try the mxus 3000 3t. But you'll need 20-25ah of 24s lipo voltage to get 20 miles range as it takes ~85wh per mile at 45 mph on a regular bike. So you'd need 1700wh minimum for 20 miles. 20ah of 24s lipo is 1776wh. You could cut that in half with a recumbent trike.

 

[jayram]

MXUS 3000w is being recommended a lot. Is this do to my ideal range and the other motors I am looking at will not have an effective range?

My battery pack build will consist of Samsung 25r 18650s. Not sure if that makes a huge difference on motor choice.

 

[cwah]

Just get the best:
Qs motor V3 with maximum cooper
Adaptto 10KW
Lg he4

 

[riba2233]

LG HE4 are actually worse in performance than HE2 and samsung 25R, and also 25R has better chemistry, so it's the best choice, unless you have money for HG2 or 30Q.

 

[dogman dan]

Hauling ass like that is going to screw your range. Period. Fast is expensive, it eats batteries alive.

The motor is just powerful, and I thought, more affordable than some of the other choices.

 

[jayram]

Hauling ass like that is going to screw your range. Period. Fast is expensive, it eats batteries alive.

The motor is just powerful, and I thought, more affordable than some of the other choices.

True words. I know it will be a give an take thing once I have a final design for the battery.

I Think what Chalo meant was,, the bike won't be street legal. Technically, and unregistered home made motorcycle, with pedals.

I also think it likely that Kansas cops likely won't give a damn, unless just your face is grounds to pull you over already.

45mph actually a bit modest for this kind of build, I'd likely just grab the cheapest big motor. In general, isn't that the Muxus 3000w? Controller capable of 72-120v, play with voltage to get the speed you like. Personally I think if 72v gets you 40 mph, it's plenty for street riding.

FWIW, 2000w on a Crystalyte H model motor, and only 48v will get you up the hills fine, but more like perhaps 20 mph up them. And it would fly under the cops radar a lot better than a bike going 40 mph up the hills.

And cost a lot less, because you won't need a huge, nearly impossible to carry battery to get decent range.

I agree these motors are over kill for just 40mph. I have more long term goals in mind that involve my maxima. This is just getting my hands wet in the EV world. Most of my toys are built frame up. I plan on taking this approach with my future ebike as well.

Apologies to Chalo. I thought it was strictly sarcasm from his post.

Just get the best:
Qs motor V3 with maximum cooper
Adaptto 10KW
Lg he4

This really has been my thought process. Buy the best and figure out the rest later. lol.

 

[neptronix]

MXUS 3kW is perfect for your requirement. It will have all the torque you need.

I basically do that 45mph type riding with a 1500w rated leaf motor, but i am lacking the thermal overhead needed. The MXUS has the thermal overhead and efficiency at 2500W continuous that 45mph demands.

Batteries? turnigy multistar or samsung 25R will give you the power and energy density you need for such a setup.
You can run as small as a 1kw-hr pack of those to get the power you are looking for.

Go higher up in the energy density world and the C rate that the battery can deliver continuously gets cut in half. Suddenly, your minimum capacity is around 2kwhrs when you get into 3AH 18650 cell territory if you want to get good performance and good cycle life. The 3C high density cell formulations perform their best at 1C or below.

Any battery performs best at 1/4th of it's maximum C rate. Thus, a 10C multistar at 2.5C is going to do really well. A 8C Samsung 25R at 2.5C won't perform as well, but you'll be within safe boundaries for decent performance while cruising.

 

[dogman dan]

Muxus run at 2000w for now will get er done. 48v 40 or 50 amps. but get the controller that can run anything from 48v to 72v. Speed less, but that makes the initial ante for the battery easier. Test the waters with the cops at 30-35 mph. See how it is, running bike tires that hard, etc.

Long 40+ mph commute on a bike tire is suicide!!! But later on, you can "motorcycle up" that muxus motor. Get on a stronger frame, better brakes, longer wheelbase, good shocks, bigger battery box in the middle, and rims and tires for 60 mph.

Short blasts on bike rims and tires one thing, a long daily commute at fast speeds needs the motorcycle shit.

So for now, think 30 mph ish, but get the big motor that can do so much more.

Bear in mind, by the time you finish, you'll be spending $5000. Why not just buy a gasser motorcycle for your ride to work?

 

[riba2233]

Muxus run at 2000w for now will get er done. 48v 40 or 50 amps. but get the controller that can run anything from 48v to 72v. Speed less, but that makes the initial ante for the battery easier. Test the waters with the cops at 30-35 mph. See how it is, running bike tires that hard, etc.

Long 40+ mph commute on a bike tire is suicide!!! But later on, you can "motorcycle up" that muxus motor. Get on a stronger frame, better brakes, longer wheelbase, good shocks, bigger battery box in the middle, and rims and tires for 60 mph.

Short blasts on bike rims and tires one thing, a long daily commute at fast speeds needs the motorcycle shit.

So for now, think 30 mph ish, but get the big motor that can do so much more.

Bear in mind, by the time you finish, you'll be spending $5000. Why not just buy a gasser motorcycle for your ride to work?

LOL, is this EV forum or what? I've built my EV moped (used frame of course) for about $2500 and it has 4 kw and 2kwh battery, and it's street legal, and has 70 kg. So you can do a lot with reasonable money. Also, that's the price of cheapest non chinese scooter here, and they are shit and eat gas.

 

[wesnewell]

You'll need a minimum of 72V at 60A with a mxus 3000 3t motor to reach 45mph. You can't even reach 40mph on 48V according to the simulator. For what you want I'd go with an 88V pack and an 80A controller. That'll get well over 50 mph and a good cruising speed of 45mph with a 3t motor.

 

[neptronix]

LOL, is this EV forum or what? I've built my EV moped (used frame of course) for about $2500 and it has 4 kw and 2kwh battery, and it's street legal, and has 70 kg. So you can do a lot with reasonable money. Also, that's the price of cheapest non chinese scooter here, and they are shit and eat gas.

Yeah, my super hiryuu has a 1.2kwhrs battery, a mxus 3kW motor, will handily do over 45mph and the total cost is around $1700 all in all, including a nice Turner dual suspension frame i nicked off eBay for $200.

High power electric bikes are cheap if you are frugal and pinch a penny until it squeaks. ( ie spend lots of time finding the best deal and aren't afraid to use quality used parts, rather than buying a bike brand new. )

If you are not frugal, you end up with a 20mph bike with half the battery for the same price.

And if you are really foolish, you end up paying $3000 for bikes like these below:
http://www.pedegoelectricbikes.com/shop/classic-interceptor/

 

[teslanv]

Easy and least expensive 45MPH Formula:

MXUS 3T in a 17" Moped Rim and a small tire like the Hutchinson GP1 or Heidenau K56 Moped Racing tire. (http://www.treatland.tv/heidenau-K56-moped-racing-tire-p/heidenau-k56-17x2.50-tire.htm)
18FET IRFB4110 Infineon (Lyen's or mine) Controller/60A Battery/120A Phase - Preferably with the R12 Mod so you can use regen at >80V
18S-16Ah Multistars or 20S-15Ah Samsung 25R Pack.
Add a CA V3 to control the power and ramp down power when the motor gets hot.

And this set-up will actually do closer to 50+ MPH...

 

[MadRhino]

Tire myth again. A tire is a tire for how it is built, no matter if it is DOT tagged or not. Some bicycle tires can ride 50 MPH all day on the rough, and give you better grip than any motorcycle tire. Motorcycle tires do last much longer, but weight prohibitive. Even if you'd need 25 Lbs of rubber to do the year, it doesn't mean you need to carry it all at once.

I say you want to commute fast, you need a cromotor or equivalent 50mm stator fast winding, tight laced in a wide 24'' rim (36H double wall Trial 46mm up to 65mm Fat rim) with nipple washers, 3.0 tire 2 ply wire beaded are safe well above 100 Kmh, mod 18 fet 4110 controller, stiff FS frame, RC lipo if you are the type to babysit your batteries, High C rate round cells if you want long term care less and willing to pay the price and weight penalty. Build a quality frame in perfect stiffness condition, with the best large pad brakes that you can afford, and pro tuned suspension. The only thing that needs to be motorcycle spec IMO, is your handlebar dimension: buy a wide low rise DH racing bar, that will make your bike a much better ride and yourself a better rider.

Fast commuting on 2 wheels is safe only when your bike can outstop and accelerate all other vehicles around you. The average speed that you usually ride must feel like cruising on your bike. You can build cheap, or you can build a good bike. The good bike pays for itself on the long term, and much safer to handle critical situations. Fast riders do know by experience, that skin and bones are worth more than penny savings on a rig.

 

[dogman dan]

You do kind of make my point exactly Riba 2233.

The problem I see is he wants to go that fast ,40 mph or more, for a pretty long distance every day. This requires the reliability and safety of DOT tires at a minimum. No bike tires.

This stree legal safe EV.

Instead of this, to go 45 mph to work every day, for a long distance
on bike tires and a cheap frame.


Really amazing you did your ride on a budget that small Riba. I'd have guessed much more. He'd be well advised to either

A-- Ride a bike based EV slower most of the time, 35 mph or so vs 45 mph.

Bike tires and rims and brakes do handle 35 mph ok, even on a long daily commute. Build for fast, but then ride 35 mph is ok. A blowout on a cheap bike frame all overloaded with battery going 45 mph is going to be a hell of a crash. 35 mph, with some skill, you can bring it down without the laydown. You can build for 35 mph up the hill. 8) but then ride no more than 35 mph the whole ride fairly safely.

B-- build a proper street legal EV licensed and insured to ride 50 mph or more, then ride it the speed limit everywhere with confidence. Don't use a bike frame, even one of the good new ones out there with a central battery box, unless you can get a motorcycle vin number for it.

C just buy a street legal motorcycle or scooter, gas or electric. He can get a gas 150cc scooter as low as $800 if he looks for used ones hard enough.

Cheapest of all, the stinky ass gas scooter. Convert it to electric later?

I just think it's a dangerous waste of money to build an obviously illegal vehicle for a daily commute, that is going to get you pulled over and ticketed at a minimum, and cost you your life at a maximum.

 

[jayram]

I thought it may be useful to clarify my daily commute. It is 6.2 miles one way and 6.4 back do to a single turn. I was hoping for extra range in case I need to swing by the store. Speeds during this drive. Only 1.4 miles each way has a speed limit of 45 mph. The rest of the commute is 30 mph.

Yes I believe the chosen models I have are way over kill. This is planned only to be the beginning of my EV adventure. This is just to get my feet wet and want to be able to re-use the motor. Hope this make sense.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, reading your earlier comments, I got the wrong idea.

We do get a lot of new guys here that do want to build a bike for about $1000 including the $100 bike, then ride it 40 miles a day at 40 mph, to work that is 20 miles away.

6 miles then you are there, that's well within the limits for bike tires, even at 40 mph. It's heating them all up running 10 miles, then trusting them for another 10 that's not a great idea.

I'll get off your back now, Go ahead and build it for 40-50 mph, then ride whatever speed you are comfortable at. But if you will ride much at speeds over 35 mph, I do suggest you start with a decent full suspension frame. Some really good ones out there now that imitate the stealth bomber frame now.

If you are happy to go 35 or so, then just a longer bike can work good. Get a longtail frame, or stretch a steel frame bike, and the bumps of the road handle well.

What you need for fast, is better suspension, or at least a longer wheelbase, and a frame that is nice and stiff from side to side.