Presidential Executive Orders Are Not Enforceable Law?

deVries

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Does any President have legal standing to issue "executive orders" & have these orders enforced as law & legal?

Excellent Article About This Subject is Here: Executive Orders of the President

Below are some conclusions from the article above. When I read the bold text in the paragraph below, I do NOT find *any* presidential authority to create new laws by his own hand issuing executive orders. :? :roll: :?: It just seems he has a duty to enforce the laws by "faithfully executing" the laws. WTF :!: :?: :shock:

In summary, the President's authority to issue executive orders and proclamations is neither explicitly stated in the Constitution nor in statute. However, it is generally accepted that the President derives his authority to act from Article II of the Constitution. The President's authority is primarily based upon the following language of Article II: "the executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States," "the President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States," and "he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed."[122]

Because the Framers of the Constitution left the question of executive authority open to interpretation, there has been much confusion and controversy since the first proclamation was issued by President George Washington.[123] Although this confusion and debate persists, some clarifying guideposts have been developed. Youngstown has enlightened the situation by providing a tripartite standard which simply states three degrees of presidential authority in issuing executive orders and proclamations. Briefly stated, these three categories include executive orders and proclamations issued pursuant to: (1) an express or implied authorization of Congress (presidential authority is at its maximum); (2) are incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, and thus rely solely upon his constitutional authority (presidential power is at its lowest ebb); and (3) undefined powers that lay in a "zone of twilight" (presidential power is uncertain). The judiciary has also expanded its examination of executive orders and proclamations to include a review of legislative history when necessary.

Other than relying upon the judiciary to determine the validity of executive orders and proclamations, Congress may also play a role. Congress may effectively oversee presidential action by amending or repealing legislation, retroactively, which authorizes the President to issue executive orders or proclamations. Congress may propose a constitutional amendment which would remove a particular power from the President. Finally, where Congress is silent, and the President has acted, Congress may legislate to either support or derail such action unless that action is firmly based on exclusive constitutional authority.

[...]

The ambiguity behind executive orders and proclamations poses a great concern for Congress and the public. At issue is the possibility that these presidential instruments may directly or indirectly affect the substantive rights, duties or obligations of persons outside the government. As a consequence, since executive orders and proclamations are a species of executive legislation, they have important constitutional implications, particularly with respect to the separation of powers. Furthermore, these instruments, if issued under a valid claim of authority and published,[4] have the force and effect of law[5] and courts are required to take judicial notice of their existence.[6] Thus, it is important to examine the legal basis for each executive order and proclamation issued and the manner in which the President has used these instruments.
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This is the actual quotation from the US Constitution below, and I DO NOT SEE THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS THE RIGHT TO CREATE NEW LAWS BY EXECUTIVE ORDER :!: :?: :idea:

DO YOU :?: :?: :?: HELP :!: :idea:

US CONSTITUTION ARTICLE II

Section. 2.

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.


Section. 3.

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information on the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.
 
The article below explains details about Obama signing the NDAA with provisions to detain Americans as terrorist suspects without due process. Now I understand why! It is to cover their Presidential asses for BOTH Bush & Obama, so their Executive Orders gain legal standing by Congress. And, so they can't be found negligent & guilty for detaining or killing Americans that are ONLY suspects (no legal proof or review) for being suspected of planning or supporting by statements of support or attempting acts of terrorism. Just be a suspect only!

There are mostly Traitors in the Senate & Congress that voted for this... The GOP — all of whom except 3 voted today to empower the President to militarily detain citizens without charges — Frack! the GOP distrusts federal power and are strong believers in restrained government (bullshit!) -hypocrisy! There are many Democrats too that betrayed Americans to pass this vote! Welcome to the Nazi Gulag & Siberian Guantanamo camps for shit-canned citizens that are just suspects -nothing proven by a judge or court or hearing! :!: :x

Is our leadership insane? :?: :idea: :shock:

Congress endorsing military detention, a new AUMF

A bill co-sponsored by Democratic Sen. Carl Levin and GOP Sen. John McCain (S. 1867) — included in the pending defense authorization bill — is predictably on its way to passage. It is triggering substantial alarm in many circles, including from the ACLU – and rightly so. But there are also many misconceptions about it that have been circulating that should be clarified, including a possible White House veto. Here are the bill’s three most important provisions:

(1) mandates that all accused Terrorists be indefinitely imprisoned by the military rather than in the civilian court system; it also unquestionably permits (but does not mandate) that even U.S. citizens on U.S. soil accused of Terrorism be held by the military rather than charged in the civilian court system (Sec. 1032);

(2) renews the 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF) with more expansive language: to allow force (and military detention) against not only those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and countries which harbored them, but also anyone who “substantially supports” Al Qaeda, the Taliban or “associated forces” (Sec. 1031); and,

(3) imposes new restrictions on the U.S. Government’s ability to transfer detainees out of Guantanamo (Secs. 1033-35).

There are several very revealing aspects to all of this. First, the 9/11 attack happened more than a decade ago; Osama bin Laden is dead; the U.S. Government claims it has killed virtually all of Al Qaeda’s leadership and the group is “operationally ineffective” in the Afghan-Pakistan region; and many commentators insisted that these developments would mean that the War on Terror would finally begin to recede. And yet here we have the Congress, on a fully bipartisan basis, acting not only to re-affirm the war but to expand it even further: by formally declaring that the entire world (including the U.S.) is a battlefield and the war will essentially go on forever.

Indeed, it seems clear that they are doing this precisely out of fear that the justifications they have long given for the War no longer exist and there is therefore a risk Americans will clamor for its end. This is Congress declaring: the War is more vibrant than ever and must be expanded further. For our political class and the private-sector that owns it, the War on Terror — Endless War — is an addiction: it is not a means to an end but the end itself (indeed, 2/3 of these war addicts in the Senate just rejected Rand Paul’s bill to repeal the 2003 Iraq AUMF even as they insist that the Iraq War has ended). This is the war-hungry U.S. Congress acting preemptively to ensure that there is no sense in the citizenry that the War on Terror — and especially all of the vast new powers it spawned — can start to wind down, let alone be reversed.

Second, consider how typically bipartisan this all is. The Senate just voted 37-61 against an amendment, sponsored by Democratic Sen. Mark Udall, that would have stripped the Levin/McCain section from the bill: in other words, Levin/McCain garnered one more vote than the 60 needed to stave off a filibuster. Every GOP Senator (except Rand Paul and Mark Kirk) voted against the Udall amendment, while just enough Democrats – 16 in total — joined the GOP to ensure passage of Levin/McCain. That includes such progressive stalwarts as Debbie Stabenow, Sheldon Whitehouse, Jeanne Shaheen and its lead sponsor, Carl Levin.

I’ve described this little scam before as “Villain Rotation”: “They always have a handful of Democratic Senators announce that they will be the ones to deviate this time from the ostensible party position and impede success, but the designated Villain constantly shifts, so the Party itself can claim it supports these measures while an always-changing handful of their members invariably prevent it.” This has happened with countless votes that are supposed manifestations of right-wing radicalism but that pass because an always-changing roster of Democrats ensure they have the support needed. So here is the Democratic Party — led by its senior progressive National Security expert, Carl Levin, and joined by just enough of its members — joining the GOP to ensure that this bill passes, and that the U.S. Government remains vested with War on Terror powers and even expands that war in some critical respects.

Third, I haven’t written about this bill until now for one reason: as odious and definitively radical as the powers are which this bill endorses, it doesn’t actually change the status quo all that much. That’s because the Bush and Obama administrations have already successfully claimed most of the powers in the bill, and courts have largely acquiesced. To be sure, there are dangers to having Congress formally codify these powers. But a powerful sign of how degraded our political culture has become is that this bill — which in any other time would be shockingly extremist — actually fits right in with who we are as a nation and what our political institutions are already doing. To be perfectly honest, I just couldn’t get myself worked up over a bill that, with some exceptions, does little more than formally recognize and codify what our Government is already doing.

* * * * *

To see why that’s true, it is worth briefly examining each of the three provisions that are the most significant. These are complex issues that cannot be meaningfully analyzed in a 400-word post. But they are important enough to take the time to understand:

Military detention of accused Terrorists

The Levin/McCain bill would require that all accused Terrorists be held in military detention and not be charged in a civilian court — including those apprehended on U.S. soil — with two caveats: (1) it exempts U.S. citizens and legal residents from this mandate, for whom military detention would still be optional (i.e., in the discretion of the Executive Branch); and (2) it allows the Executive Branch to issue a waiver if it wants to charge an accused Terrorist in the civilian system.

One of the nation’s most stalwart war cheerleaders and one of the bill’s most vocal proponents, Sen. Lindsey Graham, made clear what the provision’s intent is: “If you’re an American citizen and you betray your country, you’re not going to be given a lawyer . . . I believe our military should be deeply involved in fighting these guys at home or abroad.” As Graham made chillingly clear, one key effect of the provision is that the U.S. military — rather than domestic law enforcement agencies — will be used to apprehend and imprison accused Terrorists on American soil, including U.S. citizens.

In doing so, Graham and the bill he supports — exactly like all those who supported Obama’s due-process-free assassination of Anwar Awlaki – have apparently decided simply to dispense with Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution, which provides that nobody can be punished for treason without heightened due process requirements being met. In that regard, compare (a) Graham’s pronouncement (widely shared by those supporting Awlaki’s assassination) that “if you’re an American citizen and you betray your country, you’re not going to be given a lawyer” to (b) the Constitutional requirement in Art. III, Sec. 3 that “No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.” To deny a citizen the right to a lawyer and go to court on the ground that they’ve “betrayed their country” and thus deserve to be imprisoned without a trial (or, worse, to be assassinated without one) is as violent a betrayal of the U.S. Constitution as one can imagine, literally.

But as daunting and radical as this all sounds – The New York Times described the bill this way: it declares that “the government has the legal authority to keep people suspected of terrorism in military custody, indefinitely and without trial” and “contains no exception for American citizens” — this more or less describes the status quo. Military custody for accused Terrorists is already a staple of the Obama administration. Long before Congress ever acted to block the closing of Guantanamo (the excuse from Obama apologists we hear endlessly) — let me repeat that: long before, and totally independent of, any act of Congress — Obama did two things to entrench indefinite military detention: (1) he made clear that dozens of detainees would continue to be held indefinitely and without charges; and (2) he unveiled his plans not to close, but simply to re-locate to Illinois, the Guantanamo system of indefinite, military detention. The President already has the power to imprison accused Terrorists indefinitely and in military custody, and both the former and current Presidents have aggressively exercised that power.

Even with regard to using the military to imprison U.S. citizens arrested on U.S. soil, this has already been done: that’s exactly what the Bush administration’s lawless, due-process-free, 3 1/2 year imprisonment of Jose Padilla was. And the Fourth Circuit explicitly approved this power, a decision which stands because the Supreme Court cowardly refused to rule on it on “mootness” grounds after the Bush administration, right before the Court was to hear the case, finally charged Padilla with crimes in a civilian court.

It’s true that the Obama administration has not sought to hold any U.S. citizens in military custody (they apparently prefer the assassination route to the indefinite detention route). It’s also true that, to their genuine credit, the Obama White House has strenuously objected to the military detention provision of the bill to the extent it applies to U.S. citizens on American soil, arguing that such a power “would be inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets.” But even there, the essence of this bill — that the entire world is a battlefield, including (by definition) U.S. soil — has long been (as I’ve always argued) the most important and most dangerous component of the Bush/Cheney War on Terror, because it means the President can exercise “war powers” anywhere in the world against anyone he accuses of being a “belligerent.” And that premise is one that has been fully embraced by Obama officials as well.

Indefinite, charge-free military detention of people accused — accused – of Terrorism has been fully embraced by both the Bush and Obama administrations (it’s one of the reasons some of us have been so vocally critical). The Obama administration has gone even further and argued that it has the power not merely to detain accused Terrorists (including U.S. citizens) without due process, but to kill them. It is true that the Obama DOJ has chosen to try some accused Terrorists in civilian courts — and this bill may make that more difficult — but the power of military detention already rests with the Executive Branch. And while it would be worse for Congress to formally codify these powers and thus arguably overturn long-standing prohibitions on using the U.S. military on U.S. soil, the real legal objections to such detention are grounded in Constitutional guarantees, and no act of Congress can affect those. In sum, this bill would codify indefinite military detention, but the actual changes when compared to what the Executive Branch is doing now would be modest. That’s not a mitigation of this bill’s radicalism; it’s proof of how radical the Executive Branch under these two Presidents has already become.

Expanded AUMF

We have the same story with this provision. On paper, Levin/McCain would expand the War on Terror by codifying more expansive language defining the scope of the conflict than is contained in the 2001 AUMF. The old AUMF only authorized force (which the Supreme Court found includes military detention) “against those nations, organizations, or persons [the President] determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided” the 9/11 attack and those nations which harbored them. By contrast, Levin/McCain would also authorize force against “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.” This is intended to allow force to be used against groups that did not even exist at the time of 9/11 — such as the ones in Yemen and Somalia — as well to allow force against persons who may not be a member of those groups but who provide “substantial support.”

Here again, though, this is already what the U.S. Government is doing. The Obama administration has repeatedly insisted – and some courts have accepted — that the 2001 AUMF already includes not only Al Qaeda but “associated forces.” Thus, insists the Obama administration, it has the right to bomb Yemen and Somalia under the terms of the 2001 AUMF even though the targeted groups didn’t even exist at the time of the attack — and to detain people who had nothing to do with 9/11 — because they are already interpreting the 2001 AUMF in the same way as Levin/McCain define the war: Al Qaeda and “associated forces,” and not just members of Terrorist groups but those who “substantially support” such groups.

Critically, this is a large part of why the Obama administration feels free to oppose Levin/McCain even though the bill overtly authorizes the numerous covert wars the Obama administration is already fighting: because the Obama administration already interprets the the 2001 AUMF so broadly as to vest them with all of the war-fighting powers in Levin/McCain. Again, it would be worse if Congress overtly expands the 2001 AUMF’s language defining the scope of the W ar on Terror, but that expansion has long been and still is the de facto and even de jure reality.

Restrictions on GITMO transfers

The Levin/McCain bill also restates many of the restrictions previously imposed by Congress on the transfer or release of Guantanamo detainees. In some instances, it actually loosens some of those restrictions. But it essentially reaffirms the Congressional blockade against the closing of Guantanamo.

This issue has long been one of the most misunderstood. Obama defenders will endlessly claim that it is not Obama’s fault that Guantanamo remains open because Congress prevented its closure. That claim is true as far as it goes, but it does not go very far at all. As indicated above, Obama himself — long before, and totally independent of, any act of Congress — did two things to entrench indefinite detention: (1) made clear that dozens of detainees would continue to be held indefinitely and without charges; and (2) unveiled his plans not to close, but simply to relocate to Illinois, the Guantanamo system of indefinite, military detention. As he himself made clear, he never tried or intended to end Guantanamo’s indefinite detention system, but merely to move it a few thousand miles North. Levin/McCain ensures that Guantanamo will remain open indefinitely, and that is Congress’s — not Obama’s — fault. But the continuation of the system of indefinite detention — which, along with torture, is what made Guantanamo so controversial in the first place: not its geographic location — is attributable to President Obama.

President Obama’s possible veto of Levin/McCain

Most media discussions of Levin/McCain assert that President Obama has threatened to veto it. That is not quite true: the White House’s statement on this bill uses language short of a full-on veto threat: “the President’s senior advisers [will] recommend a veto.” Moreover, former Bush DOJ official Jack Goldsmith makes a persuasive (though not dispositive) case that it is unlikely that the President would veto this bill. Most likely, it seems to me, is that the veto threat will be used to extract concessions in order to have a bill that the President will sign.

Let’s be very clear, though, about what the “veto threat” is and is not. All things considered, I’m glad the White House is opposing this bill rather than supporting it. But, with a few exceptions, the objections raised by the White House are not grounded in substantive problems with these powers, but rather in the argument that such matters are for the Executive Branch, not the Congress, to decide. In other words, the White House’s objections are grounded in broad theories of Executive Power. They are not arguing: it is wrong to deny accused Terrorists a trial. Instead they insist: whether an accused Terrorist is put in military detention rather than civilian custody is for the President alone to decide. Over and over, the White House’s statement emphasizes Executive power as the basis for its objections to Levin/McCain:

Broadly speaking, the detention provisions in this bill micromanage the work of our experienced counterterrorism professionals, including our military commanders, intelligence professionals, seasoned counterterrorism prosecutors, or other operatives in the field. These professionals have successfully led a Government-wide effort to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al-Qa’ida and its affiliates and adherents over two consecutive Administrations. The Administration believes strongly that it would be a mistake for Congress to overrule or limit the tactical flexibility of our Nation’s counterterrorism professionals.

It’s certainly possible that the administration is simply offering these Executive Power arguments as a fig leaf to hide their more politically difficult substantive objections to expanding the War on Terror. But that seems unlikely in the extreme, given that — as I have documented — most of these powers are ones expressly claimed and used already by the Obama administration. Does anyone believe that the same President who kills his own citizens without a whiff of due process or transparency is suddenly so concerned about the imperatives of due process? Indeed, Marcy Wheeler has repeatedly suggested that, in some important respects, Levin/McCain could actually limit Executive Power beyond what the Obama DOJ has seized, and for that reason, has mixed feelings about the Udall amendment to remove it:

As I have repeatedly described, I have very mixed feelings about the debate over Detainee Provisions set to pass the Senate tonight or tomorrow. I view it as a fight between advocates of martial law and advocates of relatively unchecked Presidential power. And as I’ve pointed out, the SASC compromise language actually limits Presidential power as it has been interpreted in a series of secret OLC opinions.

I’m willing to believe that there is genuine White House opposition to having the military detain and imprison U.S. citizens on U.S. soil, and that’s commendable if true (though it’s a sign of just how extremist our government is that we’re grateful for that). Indeed, the Obama administration has opted for civilian trials for accused Terrorists captured on U.S. soil (outside of Padilla, so, too, did the Bush DOJ, and even Padilla was eventually charged). But by and large the White House’s objections are not to these powers but — explicitly — to the idea that Congress rather than the President can dictate how they are exercised. The White House isn’t defending due process or limited war; it’s defending broad Executive prerogatives to prosecute the war without Congressional interference.

In that regard, the “debate” over this bill has taken on the standard vapid, substance-free, anti-democratic form that shapes most Washington debates. Even Democratic opponents of the bill, such as Mark Udall, have couched their opposition in these Executive Power arguments: that it’s better for National Security if the CIA, the Pentagon and the DOJ decides what is done with Terrorists, not Congress. In other words, the debate has entailed very little discussion of whether these powers are dangerous or Constitutional, and has instead focused almost entirely on which of Our Nation’s Strong National Security Experts should make these decisions (one of the few exceptions to this is Rand Paul, who, continuing in his New-Russ-Feingold role on these issues, passionately argued why these powers are such a menace to basic Constitutional guarantees). In sum, the debate is over who in the National Security Priesthood should get to decide which accused Terrorist suspects are denied due process, not whether they should be.

* * * * *

If someone had said before September 11 that the Congress would be on the verge of enacting a bill to authorize military detention inside the U.S., it would be hard to believe. If someone had said after September 11 (or even after the 2006 and 2008 elections) that a Democratic-led Senate — more than ten years later, and without another successful attack on U.S. soil — would be mandating the indefinite continuation of Guantanamo and implementing an expanded AUMF, that, too, would have been hard to believe. But that’s exactly what Congress, with the active participation of both parties, is doing. And the most amazing part of it all is that it won’t change much, because that is more or less what Washington, without any statutory authorization, has already done. That’s how degraded our political culture is: what was once unthinkable now barely prompts any rational alarm — not because it’s not alarming, but because it’s become so normalized.



UPDATE: Just to underscore what is — and is not — motivating the Obama administration’s objections to this bill, Sen. Levin has disclosed, as Dave Kopel documents, that “it was the Obama administration which told Congress to remove the language in the original bill which exempted American citizens and lawful residents from the detention power,” on the ground it would unduly restrict the decision-making of Executive Branch officials. In other words, Obama officials wanted the flexibility to militarily detain even U.S. citizens if they were so inclined, and are angry that this bill purports to limit their actions.

That, manifestly, is what is driving their objections here: not a defense of due process, but a demand that Congress not interfere with their war. As John Yoo put it back on September 25, 2001, in a secret memo insisting on Congressional powerlessness: “These decisions, under our Constitution, are for the President alone to make.” The Obama administration and their Senate defenders have repeatedly made clear that their real objection to this bill is that they want Executive Branch officials — in the DOJ, CIA and Pentagon — to make these decisions, not Congress, and there is no reason to disbelieve them.



UPDATE II: Any doubt about whether this bill permits the military detention of U.S. citizens was dispelled entirely today when an amendment offered by Dianne Feinstein — to confine military detention to those apprehended “abroad,” i.e., off U.S. soil — failed by a vote of 45-55. Only three Republicans voted in favor of Feinstein’s amendment (Paul, Kirk and Lee), while 10 Senate Democrats voted against it (Levin, Stabenow, Casey, Pryor, Ben Nelson, Manchin, McCaskill, Begich and Lieberman). Remember: the GOP — all of whom except 3 voted today to empower the President to militarily detain citizens without charges — distrusts federal power and are strong believes in restrained government. Meanwhile, even The American Spectator has a more developed appreciation of due process than these Senate Democrats and the White House.
 
There is no Constitutional authority for the Federal Government to do 95% of the crap it does today, read and understand the 10th Amendment and you'll see what I mean. The people that are calling for the gov't to do something about "corporations and Wall Street", and for gov't run healthcare are only making things worse. Mark Levine has a new book out where he flat out states that we are now living in a Post-Constitutional America and he is right.
 
StudEbiker said:
The people that are calling for the gov't to do something about "corporations and Wall Street"...
Yup, I want Glass Steagall to be put back into law. Fraud, bribery, embezzlement, insider trading, & their connection to unregulated financial instruments hidden from stockholder understanding or accounting in all three of these types of publicly traded corporations are illegal in Wall Street, Banking, and Insurance, imo. Alan Greenspan under oath admitted that deregulation is a failure in the Financial Markets, and that there will have to be better regulation & detection & enforcement to have confidence in the "fairness" of so called "Free Markets". Anyway, frack those assholes, imo. :x

"The 10th amendment is bypassed by the federal government encouraging the states to adopt certain regulations through the spending power (e.g. by attaching conditions to the receipt of federal funds, see South Dakota v. Dole), or through the commerce power (by directly pre-empting state law). However, Congress cannot directly compel states to enforce federal regulations."

10th Amendment is: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I believe The Supreme Court will rule on Obama-care based on the Feds "commerce power" in the next few years.
 
deVries said:
StudEbiker said:
The people that are calling for the gov't to do something about "corporations and Wall Street"...
Yup, I want Glass Steagall to be put back into law. Fraud, bribery, embezzlement, insider trading, & their connection to unregulated financial instruments hidden from stockholder understanding or accounting in all three of these types of publicly traded corporations are illegal in Wall Street, Banking, and Insurance, imo. Alan Greenspan under oath admitted that deregulation is a failure in the Financial Markets, and that there will have to be better regulation & detection & enforcement to have confidence in the "fairness" of so called "Free Markets". Anyway, frack those assholes, imo. :x

"The 10th amendment is bypassed by the federal government encouraging the states to adopt certain regulations through the spending power (e.g. by attaching conditions to the receipt of federal funds, see South Dakota v. Dole), or through the commerce power (by directly pre-empting state law). However, Congress cannot directly compel states to enforce federal regulations."

10th Amendment is: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I believe The Supreme Court will rule on Obama-care based on the Feds "commerce power" in the next few years.

Obaacare is unconstitutional by every conceivable interpretation. If it took a Constitutional amendment to ban and the re-legalize alcohol, and to lower the voting age to 18, why do you think forcing citizens to purchase healthcare should not need an amendment?? FORCING citizens to buy ANYTHING in this county is something the federal gov't has NEVER had the power to do. Thank GOD! You are on the right track by starting to see the abuses of the executive order, but I think you need to spend some more time thinking about the MEANING of the 10th Amendment.

Obama Madison cartoon.jpg
 
StudEbiker said:
Obaacare is unconstitutional by every conceivable interpretation. If it took a Constitutional amendment to ban and the re-legalize alcohol, and to lower the voting age to 18, why do you think forcing citizens to purchase healthcare should not need an amendment?? FORCING citizens to buy ANYTHING in this county is something the federal gov't has NEVER had the power to do. Thank GOD! You are on the right track by starting to see the abuses of the executive order, but I think you need to spend some more time thinking about the MEANING of the 10th Amendment.
Well, you brought-up the subject of Obama-care, and I have *not* offered my opinion about that yet. :wink: It's not the topic of this thread, since Obama did not create Obama-care by Executive Order. :shock:

I know that the President does not make the laws by drafting the legislation or voting for it in Congress, and that's why I'm "freaking out" about Executive Orders of Bush that Obama continued following. Now, both Bush & Obama have gotten away with it by getting Congress to support in legislative law (Dec.2011) their ability to execute/assassinate or detain/jail until death American citizens without legal representation anywhere in the world including the USA if they are just a suspect (nothing proven in a legal sense) that the President believes *supports* terrorists involved in 911. Hey, that means if someone just vocally supports some terrorist actions by speaking or writing about it, then that person can be executed or imprisoned for life without legal review of any kind.

That seems to be a violation of our Constitutional rights and should be illegal for ANY President to do, ever! Bush started this & Congress now has supported in law, Dec.2011, these Executive Orders that Obama has followed too. President Obama did "assassinate" an American for supporting terrorists indirectly by written & verbal means... That American never carried out an actual terrorist attack, but it seems he promoted verbally fighting our government too. I'm sure that person was advocating such ideas based on his religious beliefs too, which seems that is another Constitutional matter that could be a violation too. We don't have to agree with someone's religious beliefs or their Free Speech, but should anyone be allowed to murder/assassinate or detain in prison till they die someone for just saying these things? :?: :idea: No proof in a court of law or legal hearing? :?:
 
If you think about it, medicare, welfare, and social security are not constitutional either.
But i have not heard any arguments against those programs because they are unconstitutional, from any party.

Just sayin - it's relative.
I'm not sure why you even started talking about Obamacare. Let's stay on topic, eh?

Also, how does complaining about a government basically owned by corporations, Bernanke running the printing press at full speed, and bailing out financial institutions with our taxpayer money, causing more inflation make the problem worse?
I'd like to hear your reasoning, studEbiker.
 
I believe no President including Bush & Obama has any right to do the following. I believe Congress that passed the NDAA provisions that supported the Executive Orders, those members of Congress, are Traitors to the fundamental meaning of the US Constitution. Especially, regarding Executive Orders. Those mofo ALL should be voted out of office, imo, and this should be challenged to the Supreme Court. I don't support terrorism or terrorists, obviously, but our government should not have the right to execute US Citizens without a fair legal hearing & trial. Seriously, this is fracked-up & insane, imo.

American Citizen Anwar al-Awlaki Assassinated in Yemen

The fact is that the entire US program of extra-judicial assassinations by drone requires a bit more study and debate, but this is especially true when the targets are US citizens. In that case, the Constitution comes into play, and the right of due process of the law. But we never really had such a debate when Anwar al-Awlaki was targeted for death by the US government, and now that the assassination has been carried out, it’s too late:

A missile fired from an American drone aircraft in Yemen on Friday killed Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical American-born cleric who was a leading figure in Al Qaeda’s affiliate there, according to an official in Washington.

Many of the details of the strike were unclear, but the official said that the drone fired a Hellfire missile and killed Mr. Awlaki, whom the United States had been hunting in Yemen for more than two years.

Yemen’s Defense Ministry confirmed Mr. Awlaki’s death, and both Yemeni and American officials hailed the strike as a significant success in the campaign to weaken Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, a group American officials believe to be the most dangerous Qaeda affiliate.

The Obama administration has escalated military and intelligence operations in Yemen, and the White House decision to make Mr. Awlaki a top priority to be hunted down and killed was controversial, given his American citizenship.

Yes, “controversial” is a nice, anodyne word for the assumed right of the government to play judge, jury and executioner of a US citizen.

We’ll hear this was necessary because of Awlaki’s operational role, and his part played in the Fort Hood massacre and the Christmas Day bombing attempt. In reality, many experts saw Awlaki as a public figurehead, a man who could speak in front of a video camera and therefore was magnified in the US public’s mind as some sort of leader. He was a guy with a YouTube account rather than an operational leader of Al Qaeda.


And now that he’s dead from a drone missile strike, it’s too late to wrestle with the question of whether a US citizen should be designated as a candidate for assassination by a murky process with no checks or balances. The President and leading counter-terrorism officials just decide who should be marked for death, and then robot planes carry it out. That slope is so slippery I’m assuming the BP Deepwater Horizon well is nearby.

Glenn Greenwald has a lot more on this at his site. A taste:

Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President’s ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki — including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry’s execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists — criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed.

From an authortarian perspective, that’s the genius of America’s political culture. It not only finds way to obliterate the most basic individual liberties designed to safeguard citizens from consummate abuses of power (such as extinguishing the lives of citizens without due process). It actually gets its citizens to stand up and clap and even celebrate the destruction of those safeguards.

UPDATE: A second American citizen, Samir Khan, has reportedly been killed in the attack.
 
September 30, 2011
2nd American in Strike Waged Qaeda Media War
By ROBBIE BROWN and KIM SEVERSON

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — From his parents’ basement in a part of town where homes have lots of bedrooms and most children go to college, Samir Khan blogged his way into the highest circles of Al Qaeda, waging a media war he believed was as important as the battles with guns on the ground.

His parents — by all accounts a low-key, respected couple who had moved south from Queens in 2004 — were worried about the increasingly radical nature of their son’s philosophy and the increasing media reports that exposed it.

They turned more than once to members of their religious communities to impress upon their college-aged son the perils of such thinking and behavior.

It did not work. In 2009, he left his comfortable life in Charlotte for Yemen, started a slick magazine for jihadists called Inspire that featured political and how-to articles written in a comfortable American vernacular, and continued to digitally dodge government and civilian efforts to stop his self-described “media jihad.”

His life ended in Yemen on Friday, when Mr. Khan, 25, was killed in a drone strike that also took the life of the radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki and two other men, according to both American and Yemeni officials.

At a mosque run by the Islamic Society of Greater Charlotte, few of the several hundred Muslims gathered for Friday Prayer wanted to talk about Mr. Khan.

“This is a very dangerous road when you go and kill someone like this,” said Ayeb Suleiman, 25, a medical resident. “He was just an editor. He was just writing.”

Others felt grief for a family who had lost a son, no matter the nature of the son’s activities.

===================================

President Obama Kills 2 US Citizens with NO Legal Hearing or Trial

Constitutional lawyer turned columnist Glenn Greenwald argued that the killing was a violation of the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that no person shall be "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."[16]

[...]

After Khan's death his family released a statement criticizing U.S. government and asking "Was this style of execution the only solution? Why couldn't there have been a capture and trial? Where is the justice? As we mourn our son, we must ask these questions."[10]

===================================

This is why Congress in December 2011, both Republicans & Democrats, voted to give Bush's & Obama's "Executive Orders" legal standing to execute American citizens AFTER The Fact -AFTER the dastardly deed is done, "assassinated" dead, in September 2011. It's an attempt to justify & protect the President *retroactively* from previous murdering, executing, or assassinating of American citizens without legal representation or hearing or trials in violation of their US Constitutional rights. :( :x :evil:
 
neptronix said:
If you think about it, medicare, welfare, and social security are not constitutional either.
But i have not heard any arguments against those programs because they are unconstitutional, from any party.

Just sayin - it's relative.
I'm not sure why you even started talking about Obamacare. Let's stay on topic, eh?

Also, how does complaining about a government basically owned by corporations, Bernanke running the printing press at full speed, and bailing out financial institutions with our taxpayer money, causing more inflation make the problem worse?
I'd like to hear your reasoning, studEbiker.

If you haven't heard it, it's just because you haven't been listening. Constitutional Conservatives like myself have been railing against those programs for years. Social Security was the Obamacare of it's day and it's Constitutionality was HOTLY debated at the time. Study the history of SS and you will see.

I think this is on topic. Executive orders are a gross violation of Constitutional restriction on the Federal Government. I'm just trying to expand the scope of Devries outrage here. It amazes me how people can get so bent out of shape of some violations of Constitutional restriction and be the biggest cheerleader you can find on other violations.

You are completely free to complain about a gov't "owned by corporations" and even do what you can to eliminate that problem, but when you think that that same gov't can step in and fix the problem, that's throwing gasoline on the fire. The answer is the 10th Amendment, and it has been for a long time.

It's making it worse because when you start asking (demanding) the gov't fix a problem you inevitably have to give that corrupt gov't MORE power. They have already proven they can't be responsible with the power they already have. The answer is to DEMAND they have LESS power.......MUCH less. Once again I refer you back to the 10th Amendment. This was put in place by the framers of the Constitution to prevent the very morass we see today. It was an ingenious amendment, unfortunately we as Americans have been too stupid to bind the politicians to it and now we are reaping what we have sown.

Now you've heard my reasoning.
 
deVries said:
September 30, 2011
2nd American in Strike Waged Qaeda Media War
By ROBBIE BROWN and KIM SEVERSON

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — From his parents’ basement in a part of town where homes have lots of bedrooms and most children go to college, Samir Khan blogged his way into the highest circles of Al Qaeda, waging a media war he believed was as important as the battles with guns on the ground.

His parents — by all accounts a low-key, respected couple who had moved south from Queens in 2004 — were worried about the increasingly radical nature of their son’s philosophy and the increasing media reports that exposed it.

They turned more than once to members of their religious communities to impress upon their college-aged son the perils of such thinking and behavior.

It did not work. In 2009, he left his comfortable life in Charlotte for Yemen, started a slick magazine for jihadists called Inspire that featured political and how-to articles written in a comfortable American vernacular, and continued to digitally dodge government and civilian efforts to stop his self-described “media jihad.”

His life ended in Yemen on Friday, when Mr. Khan, 25, was killed in a drone strike that also took the life of the radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki and two other men, according to both American and Yemeni officials.

At a mosque run by the Islamic Society of Greater Charlotte, few of the several hundred Muslims gathered for Friday Prayer wanted to talk about Mr. Khan.

“This is a very dangerous road when you go and kill someone like this,” said Ayeb Suleiman, 25, a medical resident. “He was just an editor. He was just writing.”

Others felt grief for a family who had lost a son, no matter the nature of the son’s activities.


Did you know that Obama has fired more cruise missiles than all the other Nobel Peace Prize winners combined?? :p
 
http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=275443
 
Oh shit, now i see who i'm dealing with..... a real conservative.

So you do believe that everything the govt. does is wrong, and everything they could do to fix existing problems is wrong?
Tell me what kind of America you envision? how far would you take being a conservative constitutionalist?


I think the argument of something being non-constitutional is kinda silly since people are, more often than not, totally OK with other non-constitutional things. Just like how most people see religion - it is a pick and choose affair and the waters are always muddy unless you stick to the written word 100%.

The constitution is a multi-century old document. I wonder what this country would be like if we stuck to it 100%. Remember that it was written before big industrial booms, the internet, mass transportation, etc.
 
Oh shit, now i see who i'm dealing with..... a real conservative.

So you do believe that everything the govt. does is wrong, and everything they could do to fix existing problems is wrong?

Absolutely not. The Federal Gov't has some important functions. As luck would have it, those functions are outlined in the Constitution. The could "fix" many of the existing problems by operating under the rules and restrictions placed on them by the Constitution. Unless I'm mistaken, the Constitution is by law still the "law of the land. Correct? Or do you have some inside knowledge where the Constitution has been repealed Neptronix?

Tell me what kind of America you envision? how far would you take being a conservative constitutionalist?

I envision an America operating under the guidelines of the Constitution. Why does this seem like such a "radical" idea to you?? That this does in fact seem so radical to you tells us how far off the track we have gone.

I think the argument of something being non-constitutional is kinda silly since people are, more often than not, totally OK with other non-constitutional things. Just like how most people see religion - it is a pick and choose affair and the waters are always muddy unless you stick to the written word 100%.

I think this argument is silly.

If you would have read my previous post thoroughly, I made almost the exact same comment about people picking and choosing which parts of the Constitution they want to adhere to. That's the problem. The Constitution is not like religion. God gave man free will, the Constitution undeniably binds the hands of the Federal gov't and takes away it's free will. Under the Constitution the Federal gov't has a VERY NARROW SET OF OBLIGATIONS, everything that is not SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED as an OBLIGATION of the Federal Gov't is anti-Constitutional. The only provision the Federal Gov't has if they want to do something outside of the SPECIFIC roles and obligations in the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment.


The constitution is a multi-century old document. I wonder what this country would be like if we stuck to it 100%. Remember that it was written before big industrial booms, the internet, mass transportation, etc.

If there are things that need to be changed, then it should be done by amendment as outlined in the Constitution which I hope we can agree is still "by law" the law of the land.

Yes, I wonder what this country would be like if we stuck to it 100% too.....everyday.
 
StudEbiker said:
Did you know that Obama has fired more cruise missiles than all the other Nobel Peace Prize winners combined?? :p
Maybe those idiots should award him a 2nd Nobel Peace Prize for assassinating 2 American Citizens. :p

Ok, I agree these two Americans advocated "terrorist acts" because of their religious beliefs & believed our nation committed violence against "their people" beforehand. Honestly, there is a cycle of violence that goes back in time from all sides. Hell, I'm pissed by what we did to the American Indians! Our government engaged in biological warfare using Small Pox to kill innocent women & children. :oops: Is that an act of war and/or terrorism? :?: :idea:

These "terrorists" were shooting words & *not* bullets (or Small Pox blankets), and they may be 100% incorrect in their beliefs, it's all just black & white, dang Obama cuz are "the W&B man", and so yuz kill our own citizens violently without trial or legal hearing for their words alone! :?: :idea: :roll: :evil: :shock:

Hey, doesn't everyone remember, "sticks & stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me."

My Right of Free Speech allows me to state this, and I think I'm in the right... :?: :idea:

You know it's true for political leaders... "That absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

This is the making of a Sociopath & extremely dangerous people that know what's best for everyone else to kill someone for their (misguided/mistaken) religious beliefs by one man's decision alone. Bush, Obama, or any President does NOT have that right, imo.

What is the value of Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? Might is Right? :?: :shock: :oops:

The 2nd Nobel Peace Prize is awarded for... "Sticks & stones may break my bones but words can really kill me."
 
StudEbiker said:
You are completely free to complain about a gov't "owned by corporations" and even do what you can to eliminate that problem, but when you think that that same gov't can step in and fix the problem, that's throwing gasoline on the fire. The answer is the 10th Amendment, and it has been for a long time.
I brought-up Glass Steagall, which had been the law of the land until 1999. I mentioned that Wall Street, Banks, and Insurance companies need Federal Regulation & laws & enforcement to prevent the financial disaster we had since 1999.

The Federal Government does have the right to regulate interstate commerce, and, certainly, Wall Street, Banks, and Insurance companies are part of interstate commerce. So, these companies are fair game, when they've conducted business across state lines. State Law would only apply if these companies only operated inside one State to buy & sell & transact business within the confines of their State. :?: :idea:
 
StudEbiker said:
The Constitution is not like religion. God gave man free will, the Constitution undeniably binds the hands of the Federal gov't and takes away it's free will. Under the Constitution the Federal gov't has a VERY NARROW SET OF OBLIGATIONS, everything that is not SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED as an OBLIGATION of the Federal Gov't is anti-Constitutional. The only provision the Federal Gov't has if they want to do something outside of the SPECIFIC roles and obligations in the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment.

Neptronix said:
The constitution is a multi-century old document. I wonder what this country would be like if we stuck to it 100%. Remember that it was written before big industrial booms, the internet, mass transportation, etc.

StudEbiker said:
If there are things that need to be changed, then it should be done by amendment as outlined in the Constitution which I hope we can agree is still "by law" the law of the land.

Yes, I wonder what this country would be like if we stuck to it 100% too.....everyday.

I completely agree! :D Except, that I think the Supreme Court can rule on the Interpretation of the US Constitution & Bill of Rights, so you have to include that 3rd branch of Federal Government too :!: :wink: :idea:
 
See this is where we disagree. I don't think it was "Wall Street", or "Corporations", or even "predatory lenders" that caused the economic downturn. The primary factor in the economic downturn was the mortgage crisis and that was caused by the Federal Gov't stepping outside it's charter and interfering in the housing market. The market has come back and we are still in an economic mess. The housing market hasn't come back. Here is a VERY telling article from the New York Times in 1999 (pre-W. Bush) outlaying what the Federal Gov't did in the housing market and even the SPECIFIC potential dangers of such a move which ended up happening EXACTLY as the American Enterprise Institute (as quoted in the article) feared might happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
By STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999

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In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.

''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''

Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''


Under Fannie Mae's pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 -- a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.

Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than non-Hispanic whites.

Home ownership has, in fact, exploded among minorities during the economic boom of the 1990's. The number of mortgages extended to Hispanic applicants jumped by 87.2 per cent from 1993 to 1998, according to Harvard University's Joint Center for Housing Studies. During that same period the number of African Americans who got mortgages to buy a home increased by 71.9 per cent and the number of Asian Americans by 46.3 per cent.

In contrast, the number of non-Hispanic whites who received loans for homes increased by 31.2 per cent.

Despite these gains, home ownership rates for minorities continue to lag behind non-Hispanic whites, in part because blacks and Hispanics in particular tend to have on average worse credit ratings.

In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. Last year, 44 percent of the loans Fannie Mae purchased were from these groups.

The change in policy also comes at the same time that HUD is investigating allegations of racial discrimination in the automated underwriting systems used by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to determine the credit-worthiness of credit applicants.
 
It's far too convenient to pull a 1999 article just before the repeal of Glass Steagall. (Think Tanks like the American Enterprise Institute have a one-sided agenda. Screw all those TT DC political hack a-holes.)

The problem is deregulation & not monitoring & prosecuting for fraud AND allowing new unregulated insanely leveraged WMD financial instruments into the marketplace with huge leverage doubled-down, tripled-down, frack-you downed, add infinitude into Hedge Funds, Wall Street, Banking, and Insurance Companies. Get real... It was an insane casino of leveraged gambling Off The Books on Publicly Traded Corporations ... The New Gods of Finance ... Turned-out to be Evil Incarnate ... Give financial criminals deregulation & they escape with all the loot ... leaving us holding the bag of debt & bankruptcy! The evil frackers walk, cause we don't even have the balls thanks to their castration from the get-go...
Wiki..."The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in November 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. This repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in the commercial banks."
Add-in AIG the largest Insurance Conglomerate in America (past tense) that fracked us too with off the books CDS.

Fannie Mae and the Financial Crisis

As to the credit crisis, it too, has many many proximate causes, but the two I focus upon as having the greatest impact was exempting CDOs from any sort of regulatory scrutiny (Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000) and the payola scandal of the rating agencies Moody's, Fitch, S&P slapping Triple AAA ratings on all manner of junk paper.

In order to fully understand the housing and credit crisis, one needs to understand a bit of history in the housing market. To that end consider this timeline:

1987 Federal Reserve cuts rates
1989 Housing Market peaks
1996 Prior purchases get to breakeven
1997 Housing Taxpayer Relief Act
1998 3 Rate Cuts
1995-2000 -- Big stock market gains
2001 Rate cuts from 6% down to 1.75%
2002 More rate cuts to 1.25%
2003 one final cut to 1%

Follow the timeline: Home sales and prices cycled up post '87 market crash -- they peaked in 1989, and for the next 7 years, they slid down to sideways. A 1989 house buyer did not get back to break even until 1996/97. (See chart above)

A few other factors impacted housing: In 1997, the Taxpayer Relief Act that dropped capital gains to 20% from 28%, and also exempted the first $500,000 for married couples selling house (allowable once every two years).

Around that time,the stock market boom and tech dot com bubble was in full throat. That put ALOT of money in people's hands in 1997, 98, 99 and Q1 of 2000. In the late 1990s, I had many discussions with clients, real estate agents and traders about the equities into house rotation: Take some equity profits off the table and then trade up in real estate. Consider these S&P500 gains in the markets: 1995=34%, '96=20%, '97=31%, '98=27%, and from Oct '99 to March 2000, the Nasdaq was up 100%.

The folks who want to place the entire crisis at FNM/FRE 's doorstep miss the point -- and let me hasten to add that I was never a fan of the company, and we were short FNM from over a year ago, at $42+ -- these people seem to miss all of the big picture issues, and are focusing on minor factor and outright irrelevancies. This was not a "social engineering" experiment, as the radical right has called it. This was extreme short sightedness.

Fannie Mae was not a government entity, they were an independent, publicly traded, private sector firm. They were allowed to borrow at better rates than banks as a GSE. They bought what they did in an attempt to grab share and profits. If they came under pressure from Congress -- or Angelo Mozilo, or hedge fund investors -- it was because they were trying to capture market share and profits and maintain an advantageous position in the marketplace.

Consider:

"The chief executive of the mortgage giant Freddie Mac rejected internal warnings that could have protected the company from some of the financial crises now engulfing it, according to more than two dozen current and former high-ranking executives and others.

That chief executive, Richard F. Syron, in 2004 received a memo from Freddie Mac’s chief risk officer warning him that the firm was financing questionable loans that threatened its financial health.

Now consider the key points from the NYT article today:

• Company was in disarray after an accounting scandal;

• New CEO came on board in 2004;

• Competitors were "snatching lucrative parts" and market share away;

• Between 2001-04, the subprime mortgage market grew from $160 to $540 billion

• Between 2005-08, Fannie purchased or guaranteed at least $270 billion in loans to risky borrowers.

• By 2004, Fannie had lost 56% of its loan-reselling business to Wall Street;

• Angelo Mozilo, Countrywide Financial CEO, the nation’s largest mortgage lender, threatened to end their partnership unless Fannie started buying Countrywide’s riskier loans;

• Congress was pressuring for more loans to low-income borrowers;

• Hedge fund managers and other investors pressured Fannie executives that the company was not taking enough risk in pursuing profits;

• Like many other firms, Fannie’s computer systems did a poor job of analyzing risky loans;

• Between 2005-07 -- after the market's peak -- Fannie's acquisitions of mortgages with less than 10% down payments almost tripled;

• Fannie expanded in hot real estate areas like California and Florida;

• From 2004-06, Fannie operated without a permanent chief risk officer;

As I have said repeatedly, Fannie and Freddie were cogs in the great housing machinery, and they bear some responsibility for the current debacle. But to claim they were the most significant factors misses the true tale of our twin Housing and Credit debacles.

Fannie has been around since 1938, Freddie since 1968, the CRA has been around since 1977 -- suddenly, all of housing goes to hell in 2005, and then credit collapses 2 years after -- and the best explanation some people can come up with is Fannie, Freddie and CRA? Gee, isn't that rather odd -- especially after 70 years?

Then there is the international issue: If Fannie and Freddie and the 1977 CRA (and amendments) are to blame for the US boom and bust, how did the rest of the world end up with a housing boom too? Why did prices and sales go skyward in the UK, France, Spain, Ireland, Australia, etc.? They had no CRA, or a Fannie Mae, or a Freddie Mac, -- so then what caused their housing boom?

The short answer: Ultra low rates, securitization, and perhaps some of our homegrown, innovative lending standards.


While I understand that reducing the complexities of economic history into bumper sticker phrases is politically expedient, it does not help us understand the root cause of the problems. And, it gets in the way of helping us fashion a solution for the future. Hence, why I hold the weasels who are attempting to obscure reality and rewrite history in such disdain.

For the non-partisan, non hacks amongst you, for the policy makers and academics and economists who are truly interested in how this came to pass, and what we can do to fix it, the bottom line remains: The CRA was irrelevant to the current crisis, and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were mere cogs in a very complex financial machine, with many moving parts.

But the primary cause of the mess? Not even close . . .

Previously:
How Washington Failed to Rein In Fannie, Freddie (September 14, 2008)
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/09/how-washington.html

Freddie's Risk Officer: CEO Ignored Warning Signs (August 05, 2008)
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/08/freddies-risk-o.html

His Name is Mudd (August 20, 2008)
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/08/perilous-pursui.html

Fannie Mae Looks Like Hell (November 16, 2007)
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2007/11/fannie-mae-look.html

Sources:
Pressured to Take More Risk, Fannie Hit a Tipping Point
CHARLES DUHIGG
NYT, October 5, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/business/05fannie.html

At Freddie Mac, Chief Discarded Warning Signs
CHARLES DUHIGG
NYT, August 5, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/business/05freddie.html

The Endgame Nears For Fannie and Freddie
JONATHAN R. LAING
Barron's August 18, 2008
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB121884860106946277.html
==============================

Furthermore, you can't have a Military Industrial Complex (MIC) running Two+ Wars ... Again, Off The Books of National Budgets, Cut Taxes for The Wealthy Elites, and not BF your own country into further debt. Not to mention the devastating psychology and long-term effects this has on a nation sustaining endless wars for over 10 years. Killing OBL just proves we never needed nation-state wars period. Special Ops & drones was the answer that would have saved trillions of dollars in debt & untold countless lives lost & ruined in collateral damage by the effects of warfare including thousands of Americans losing their lives too. Our political leadership are total dumb asses engaging in Warfare Nation Building in countries that do not share our cultural values or history-heritage or future political religious development & outcomes. :x

War only delayed the political resolutions that ultimately have to solve the problems. Hey, isn't it interesting that Egypt can implode with cell phones & Face Book? Even Iranians protest & can change their own government in their own way. We need to let go of war being a solution. We also made Iran a much stronger nation by taking out Iraq, since we obliterated their Sunni military enemy in Iraq. Of course, Iraq's Shiites will now move to be politically & religiously closer to Iran. That is the majority religion in Iraq too, so American leadership tilted Iraq into the arms & influence of Iran. :roll:
 
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