Public Transportation Policy Regarding Bikes & E-bikes?

[Nehmo]

From what I've read, mine is a minor fight compared to the e-bike wars in NYC and Shenzhen. I'm the (almost) only combination e-bike & bus-rider in the Kansas City metro. Nonetheless, I'm in it, and the fight is on.

(I should inform the readers that I have the experience of having lived in and rode public transportation in a few North American and European cities. But KC is the first place I've had an e-bike.)
Bus drivers here in KC are crabby in general. They are even more crabby toward someone with a bike, any bike. And e-bikes, they hate, even though they may have never seen one before. My explanation is that e-bikes are different, and anything different, or anti conformist, is subject to attack by weak people. These people are inferior socially-emotionally-intellectually and are always looking for someone to bully as a means to compensate. If they have authority, and they can exercise it, they'll do it in an negative-enforcement way because they will look upon their action as a ego victory that makes them feel a little less inferior. Such is the psychology.

And drivers always get the backing of their supervisors when dealing with riders. It's a we-them attitude, and a rider is more like an inmate than a customer. They basically threaten to throw you off the bus or not allow you to board. This may be a serious setback for a rider with no recourse.

In any case, here in KC, there doesn't appear to be a published rule against e-bikes on the rack of a bus.(There is a video on Kcata.org saying non-motorized bikes can go on the rack, but that's the closest I can find to a rule.) There also doesn't seem to be a rule, at least not a published one, regarding the transportation of batteries. Drivers have used both these "rules" to harass me.

I intend to deal with this issue somehow. It's going to have to be above the driver-supervisor level, and for ammunition, I'm looking for a list of city transportation services that allow bikes and maybe, specifically, e-bikes.

In Kansas City (Missouri and Kansas) the company is http://www.kcata.org/ Bikes are begrudgingly allowed on 2-place racks. Whether an e-bike is allowed depends on the driver. Younger white drivers (that's the way it is) may allow a bike on the bus when the racks are full. I've never seen a non-white driver or an old driver make this exception. Many smaller buses don't have racks.

What about the rest of the world? Please add your city and it's public transportation policy regarding bikes and e-bikes.

`~- Nehmo

 

[neptronix]

Wow, that's pretty bad.

Possible solutions:

1. Folding eBike.
2. Pack enough amp hours onto your bike so that you never have to take the bus. I've got a 20AH / ~40 mile pack for a reason. Saves me money and extends my flexibility since i don't have to take the mass transit anymore.

 

[Nehmo]

Sometimes I need to go way beyond the range of my batteries. I'm using 2 12V U1 lead-acid lawn mower batteries. I know I need Li-ion, but that takes money or crime.
I wouldn't mind a folding electric. That's down the bike path.

`~- Nehmo

 

[amberwolf]

As long as it doesn't have a gas engine, here in Phoenix and the rest of the valley (Valley Metro), they don't seem to care. There are no rules against even the gas bikes, AFAIK, but that's the only question I've had about it, so I presume those that asked *would* care if it did.

I've even taken CrazyBike2 on the light rail where the only place I could put it is alongside the seats near the bike section, essentially blocking three seats (at least), and simply staying seated on the bike (it's actually more comfortable than the bus seats anyway).

I also have taken DayGlo Avenger on both bus and light rail, both as ebike and not, but it is very heavy even without ebike stuff on it, and difficult for me to lift onto the racks (actually these days it'd be impossible). I get funny looks, but that's probably more because the bike is not exactly normal-looking, than because it's got a motor.


It's rare for me to use the transit system at all, as in addition to the cost of it that I really don't have the budget for, I also prefer to ride, and generally I can get most places as quick on the bike as I could by bus (because of teh number and length of stops they make), and not much slower than the light rail (because of the path I can take, if I'm going to the other end)

Sometimes I need to go way beyond the range of my batteries. I'm using 2 12V U1 lead-acid lawn mower batteries.

You should start a "build" thread, about your bike. Might be some stuff we can help with that'd improve your range even with what you have.

 

[Nehmo]

So Phoenix finally got a train. I'm from Tucson (more or less) and I've lived in Tempe. The Phoenix metro didn't have a train when I was there, but I now see it's been running since the end of '08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_Light_Rail_(Phoenix) . From my point of view, Phoenix's train depressingly reminds me once again how backward Kansas City is. Since this area is one and a half times more densely populated, a train here would make more sense than one in Phoenix. But the train project here is forever stalled. And the various currently tossed around proposals are lame anyway.
I see your bike http://www.evalbum.com/2691 . That's an accomplishment. There's no way KC bus drivers would allow that on a bus rack, assuming it would fit. I'll have to examine your pics. I'm right now trying to figure out why you have 2 sets of pedals.
Your other bike http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15570 also gets my respect, but friction drive? I'm sure this has already been discussed, but there must be a significant energy loss with a friction coupling. And there's the wear issue too.
But you and I share the Lead-Acid obsolescence. The ones I have are disappointing when used in the so-called "deep-cycle" mode. I'm looking hard to move to the next battery technology.
These guys http://www.osnpower.com/productID/product_detail-10726328.html seem to have what I want, but they don't post their prices or availability, and their webform messaging doesn't work either.
Regarding my bike itself, I basically have a Currie Trailz low-step '08 version http://goo.gl/j1Jb4 , using a 450 watt geared chain drive motor, with 2 group U1 12v lead-acid lawnmower batteries in series mounted in the saddle bag positions (the bike originally came to me new but without the stock battery), now weighing 105 pounds (= 50 kg) (15 kg of this is both batteries) (I weigh 95 kg) . With new batteries, I get 11 miles or 18 km before I need more juice. I'd rather have a geared hub motor, Li-ion batteries, and a rear suspension.
As I've already said, I've never seen another e-bike of any kind in Kansas City. Either I'm on the cutting edge in Kansas City, America, or I'm nuts.
`~- Nehmo

 

[spinningmagnets]

Being a bus driver is usually a fairly good job, however...there is a constant pressure for the drivers to keep up the published schedule. I'm not excusing what frequently happens, just that it may be helpful to keep in mind the drivers perspective. I wouldn't assume that any given bus driver is green minded, or cares about bikes/E-bikes.

Any bicyclist who wants to put a bike on/off the bus's bumper-bike-rack causes him to have to wait a few seconds. Not a big hassle, but...for him, every second counts, and he was given no choice in evaluating the schedule he must try to follow if he wishes to keep his job.

If using a bus for a long leg of your daily commute is very neccessary, I would suggest an ultra-stealth build. Also, once a driver on your normal route gets to know you by sight, emphasize that you are trying very hard to load/un-load fast, so that you don't hold him up at all.

Bicyclists have fought hard to get the few concessions they have right now (as far as bike racks on the bus bumpers), E-bikers are an incredibly tiny sliver of the bike population, and we will not have any type of political power until gas is $6/gallon, and millions of commuters suddenly realize that gasser bikes are banned most places and E-bikes are clearly the next best option (though I realize they will never be the solution for everyone).

Best of luck...

Edit: For others who are drawn to this threads title, another option that works for some is to get a folding stand-up scooter, and put it inside a shoulder bag about the size of a small golf bag to carry onto the bus. The electric scooters from the factory are a little pricey, but a gasser like this is fairly easy to find cheap, to convert over to electric using parts from TNC scooters.

If this appeals to anyone, I highly recommend pneumatic tires and low speeds.

 

[John in CR]

A public transportation vehicle forced to carry another vehicle, motorized or not, is absurd. If there's not room for everyone on the bus to have one, then there's not room for one. Inconveniencing all for the convenience of one is not what public transportation is about.

The real problem is that you live to far from your destination for your means, so the solutions are:
Move closer to your destination.
Change destinations.
Get better transportation.

 

[Nehmo]

A public transportation vehicle forced to carry another vehicle, motorized or not, is absurd. If there's not room for everyone on the bus to have one, then there's not room for one. Inconveniencing all for the convenience of one is not what public transportation is about.

The real problem is that you live to far from your destination for your means, so the solutions are:
Move closer to your destination.
Change destinations.
Get better transportation.

The public transportation company here in Kansas City, KCATA, advertises Bike-N-Bus. And the bikes go on a rack that's attached to the front outside of the bus. Thus, they don't take up passenger room.

You feel that "motorized" is irrelevant. But for those who do, I found the legal definition in Missouri:

A motorized vehicle is legally defined: Sec. 301.010, RSMo, as "any mechanical device on wheels, designed primarily for use, or used, on highways, except motorized bicycles, vehicles propelled or drawn by horses or human power, or vehicles used exclusively on fixed rails or tracks, or cotton trailers or motorized wheelchairs operated by handicapped persons." Notice motorized bicycles are excepted.

`~- Nehmo

 

[jonathanm]

+1 on the stealth bike. My ebike would not be recognised as motorized by your average joe even if they stood and looked at it for a minute.....

With bus drivers and similar types (and I also have lived in may cities and countries around the world) - it's all about the PITA factor. I don't think they could care less if your bike was powered by dylithium or kryptonite, as long as you get on and off quickly, don't look conspicuous, don't take up too much room, etc.

amberwolf is obviously the exception to this rule - his bikes are so far on the other end of this spectrum that the train driver is the one who doesnt want to cause a scene. lol

 

[amberwolf]

So Phoenix finally got a train.

Which unfortunately replaced the Red Line bus, which I used a fair bit before then, for stuff northwest of Chris-town (but the lightrail ends there, and doesnt' come up here).

I see your bike http://www.evalbum.com/2691 . That's an accomplishment. There's no way KC bus drivers would allow that on a bus rack, assuming it would fit. I'll have to examine your pics. I'm right now trying to figure out why you have 2 sets of pedals.

It didn't actually have two pedal sets, just two bottom brackets and chainring sets, using the rear one as a jackshaft to combine motor and pedals into the regular bike drivetrain (rather than doing it stokemonkey or cyclone style). Currently it's a hubmotor, instead, but the new bike will go back to a similar method as the original CrazyBike2.

It would never fit on a bus rack, as it's over 8 feet long. But it does fit inside the train car. Barely. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to get it on there during rush hour, but the times I've had it on there so far, early early morning and late late night, it was ok.

Your other bike http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15570 also gets my respect, but friction drive? I'm sure this has already been discussed, but there must be a significant energy loss with a friction coupling. And there's the wear issue too.

Friction turned out to be the easiest first functional drive, after several other attempts at chain drive. Wear might've been a problem eventually (at least of the rollers); I don't know what the energy loss was as I didn't have any good way of measuring even my power usage at the time. It's also a hubmotor now, and will likely stay that way, though it's geared instead of direct drive like CB2's is. But I do have eventual plans to put a lightweight friction drive on a simple commuter, preferably in a way that I can easily remove the whole drive and battery pack to put on other bikes, if I have to. (not possible with DGA's versions).

But you and I share the Lead-Acid obsolescence. The ones I have are disappointing when used in the so-called "deep-cycle" mode. I'm looking hard to move to the next battery technology.

LA has it's place, but on a small vehicle with not much place to put things, and where every bit of weight matters, it's best avoided. I'll still use it when I have to, but really if I had to deal much with hills I'd do almost anything to avoid using LA--it's bad enough with starts from stopped.

Most of the deep-cycle stuff is fairly short-lived when used that way, simply because of the way LA works. Not much you can really do about that, besides using "desulfating" chargers and such, and always recharging as soon as physically possible.

These guys http://www.osnpower.com/productID/product_detail-10726328.html seem to have what I want, but they don't post their prices or availability, and their webform messaging doesn't work either.
Regarding my bike itself, I basically have a Currie Trailz low-step '08 version http://goo.gl/j1Jb4 , using a 450 watt geared chain drive motor, with 2 group U1 12v lead-acid lawnmower batteries in series mounted in the saddle bag positions (the bike originally came to me new but without the stock battery), now weighing 105 pounds (= 50 kg) (15 kg of this is both batteries) (I weigh 95 kg) . With new batteries, I get 11 miles or 18 km before I need more juice. I'd rather have a geared hub motor, Li-ion batteries, and a rear suspension.

As long as you don't need a lot of speed or startup torque or hillclimbing power, that bike's setup is probably fine, except for the batteries (and maybe the suspension). If you had lighter batteries, even the rear suspension might not be required, depending on your roads--the bike would ride better and the wheel and frame, not loaded down so much, could flex a bit more as needed for the bad bumps. That's what I found with CrazyBike2 and DayGlo Avenger, although I discovered it by moving the SLA up into the center out of the rear pods. CB2 is much better, being steel and very long, as the whole frame can flex just a little bit in each place, overall making it much better than if it was totally stiff without suspension.

But something like even the Fusin geared motor I have on DGA would work well for most things, and works great on flat ground, though it does take a while to get up to speed, when I use the power-limiting 3-speed switch in anything other than High.

Edit: For others who are drawn to this threads title, another option that works for some is to get a folding stand-up scooter, and put it inside a shoulder bag about the size of a small golf bag to carry onto the bus. The electric scooters from the factory are a little pricey, but a gasser like this is fairly easy to find cheap, to convert over to electric using parts from TNC scooters.

Just beware that in some places, like Phoenix, they're illegal on public roads and sidewalks, due to a stupid kids causing problems with them in years past. Might not be in other cities in the valley; havnet' checked.

 

[RVD]

what does your bike look like? my bike isn't totally stealth but nobody knows that it's an electric bike unless they try to lift it up. i have my batteries in rear panniers so they are hidden. if yours are out in the open, can you get a tarp or something to cover it up? i don't think you would fall under any different rules than a regular bike.

 

[Nehmo]

what does your bike look like?

It's obvious my bike is electric because I have 2 group U1 (lawn tractor) batteries mounted in the saddle positions both sides of the rear wheel.

I intend to dump these obsolete lead-acid batteries soon, so I'm not going to waste effort disguising them. But even so, that would only work on new bus drivers. I have to use a particular bus route to get out of this area, Kansas City, Kansas, of the metro, and the same routes have the same drivers.

my bike isn't totally stealth but nobody knows that it's an electric bike unless they try to lift it up. i have my batteries in rear panniers so they are hidden.

There's also a moral principle here. I shouldn't have to hide the e-bike to appease some dim-witted bullies. That was the purpose of my beginning the thread. I'm preparing for a written argument, and I wanted to be able to state to the KC bus company that other companies, for example, that of Portland, OR, allow e-bikes. But I need definite information about the rules and the practices of these various bus companies.

if yours are out in the open, can you get a tarp or something to cover it up? i don't think you would fall under any different rules than a regular bike.

Other than the KC bus company video saying "non-motorized bikes may be placed on the racks...", I haven't found any specific rule governing what kinds of bikes can use the racks. {As I wrote this, I discovered a new rule on the bus site http://www.kcata.org/rider_guide/bike_n_bus/: Bike-N-Bus Rules
...
Motor-powered bikes, mopeds, tandem bikes, tricycles, bikes with training wheels and bikes with trailers cannot be loaded onto the bike racks.
..."} Maybe they're preparing for an argument too.

Denver, CO RTD doesn't allow motorized bikes on racks: http://www.rtd-denver.com/Bike_n_Ride.shtml
Portland, OR seems to allow them: http://trimet.org/howtoride/bikes/bikesonmax.htm
Seattle, WA doesn't mention e-bikes but doesn't allow gas: http://metro.kingcounty.gov/tops/bike/bikeride.html
Chicago, IL CTA doesn't allow motorized bikes: http://www.transitchicago.com/riding_cta/how_to_guides/bikebus.aspx

You must understand, these drivers are bottom of the barrel people. Many of them enjoy being in authority over others, and this is the first time in their lives that that's happened.

 

[V_Mark]

Here in Chicago I take my eBike on the train & busses a few times a month. Most drivers either don't know the rule against "motorized bicycles," don't realize it has a motor, or just don't care to enforce the rule. I've never once had a problem in 3 years. I have a front hub 9C 2806-- the big silver one--which is a dead giveaway to anyone who knows what they are looking for. I do however, always remove my batteries and take them on board with me if I am putting it on the bus rack.

I remember reading something on here a while back that may be relevant: Isn't an electric bicycle without a battery just a bicycle?

If I ever start running into trouble, I'd probably just go the stealth route, and get a smaller geared rear hub motor, although I love the performance of the DD.

 

[wineboyrider]

Here in Chicago I take my eBike on the train & busses a few times a month. Most drivers either don't know the rule against "motorized bicycles," don't realize it has a motor, or just don't care to enforce the rule. I've never once had a problem in 3 years. I have a front hub 9C 2806-- the big silver one--which is a dead giveaway to anyone who knows what they are looking for. I do however, always remove my batteries and take them on board with me if I am putting it on the bus rack.

I remember reading something on here a while back that may be relevant: Isn't an electric bicycle without a battery just a bicycle?

If I ever start running into trouble, I'd probably just go the stealth route, and get a smaller geared rear hub motor, although I love the performance of the DD.

+1 this is the route I would take. A small minimotor would be very stealthy and keep your batteries in a bag or back pack and nobody will know.

 

[V_Mark]

I also should say that I remove the battery and put it in a backpack out-of-sight of the driver or way before the bus arrives. Also, a little bit of confidence goes a long way when loading and boarding.

 

[biohazardman]

I live in Portland the West coast one and werq for, the famous or infamous depending on the day TriMet a tri-county transit district. We allow bikes with a maximum weight of 50lbs on the bus racks. Bikes on the Max light rail system must be hung from a hook so one might get away with a little more weight but you need to be able to lift them up. Nothing with gas is allowed on any bus or train. My bike is a just a couple of lbs over the limit for the bus but as I have a 30 plus mile range there is no reason for me to use them. The Max on the other hand I find quite useful and can greatly extend my range or get me out of the rain for a short while if I wish. An e-bike with no batts should be well within the limits of the bus rack and not even considered an e-bike as it is a pedal only without them. So you should not even be in a fight of any sort. A few drivers in my area do not like to be held up and have attitudes but most are very pateint and will give one no problems. I wish you luck as you try to sraighten things out.

 

[Vadim]

I don't actually have an ebike (It'll be my winter project) the laws in Ontario are a bit annoying (max 500w motor) but anyway.
The Kitchener/Waterloo bus company (grt) specifically says no motorized bikes on the rack or on the bus. But I haven't tried yet.
I don't see what the problem would be if it's light enough to lift.

 

[Nehmo]

I also should say that I remove the battery and put it in a backpack out-of-sight of the driver or way before the bus arrives. Also, a little bit of confidence goes a long way when loading and boarding.

You people advocating stealth seem to think the situation will be an unknown driver encountering a faceless passenger. But that would not be the case if the rider took the same bus route daily, as in commuting. Once the driver knows the rider has used an electric bike, the driver will look over any new bike suspiciously. Most of them are stupid and wouldn't initially recognize a hub motor, but soon they would know what to look for.
In my case, I've already been caught. Yes, I understand I'm doing nothing wrong, but that's not the attitude of the drivers. They treat the passengers like prisoners rather than customers.
Also, there's no way I could disguise my batteries by putting them in a bag. I'm using 2 16 pound U1 lead-acid garden-tractor batteries. (The pic is of a different brand.)

 

[jonathanm]

If you will face the same driver every day then it makes it an even dumber move not to stealth your bike. There was tons of ways you could have disguised your batteries, but you're screwed now, lol

 

[wineboyrider]

You need to drop the lead and grab some lipo of lifepo4 when you can. Then you won't have to ride the bus!
8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[Nehmo]

You need to drop the lead and grab some lipo of lifepo4 when you can. Then you won't have to ride the bus!
8) 8) 8) 8)

I know. Lead-Acid is yesterday. I'm doing it with the next discretionary $. But I'll still have to take the bus sometimes.

 

[V_Mark]

Unfortunately, due to the size and weight, lead makes for a way more obvious e-bike.

 

[GrayKard]

The San Antonio, Tx public transportation is great. The drivers are very friendly and helpful, the buses are clean and well maintained and all have bike racks. I haven't seen any rules on their website against motorized bikes, but I have been asked if mine is a gassser as they won't allow those. Guess it's an unwritten rule.

In the 18 months since conversion to electric I have had no problems. That's 1 to as many as 6 separate buses a day, 5 days a week. In fact, a lot of the drivers are interested in the bike when they realize its electric. They often have lots of questions. Recently I even gave a link to my build thread to a driver interested in building one.

If you choose your stop to get on/off wisely you won't hold the bus up at all. Go to the busiest one in the area. You can have your bike on the rack before regular passengers have finished loading. Also if your departure or destination is near the end of the line they will usually have layover time there so it's worth going a couple extra blocks.

Gary