Quest for gearing! Crank Length?

LI-ghtcycle

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Heya all, I am in a bit of a quandary, I have looked at the minimum sized chain rings for various crank types, and I have looked at the cranks themselves, as is the length of the cranks.

I have read what Sheldon Brown has to say, and I am curious what everyone else's experiences have been.

I have surmised that long crank arms = greater leverage, which should equate to lower gearing right? However, if the cranks are too long, they cause knee pain.

Am I not effectively raising the gearing to taller gearing with a smaller crank? What is a good rule of thumb for having the right length? I seem to be more accustomed to the longer crank arms, 170 & 175, but I have no idea if this is the best, as I do get some knee pain climbing hills if I push too hard.

I'm more concerned about causing myself an injury with the wrong cranks than anything else, however, I need to have as low gears as possible while hopefully staying in the "off the shelf" category.

I will be returning the 21T 74 BCD crank adapter for what appears to be a cog from an older freewheel. yet makes for a huge gap between the it and the next chain ring, and the chain ends up stalled between the two instead of being shifted down by the derailleur.

I am looking at 4 bolt compact MTB cranks, which can have a 22T "granny gear" with a standard 22/32/42 combination as the possible best bet for use with my Nuvinci, as I need some really low gears to help out on the serious hills.

The Nuvinci for me hasn't been as much about eliminating the derailleurs (though I detest them!) as making a transmission for gearing up or down the motor to wheel ratio, but I will need at least 2 chain rings (one ultra low to be used mostly just in emergency if the electric power failed) and the middle one which would be used 99% of the time.

What are you're ideas?

Thanks! :)
 
A long crank doens't change the gearing any. But it does change the leverage you leg gets on the gear.

Long cranks give your leg an advantage, longer lever. But short cranks are easier on the legs if you crank high rpms. also won't strike pavement on corners as much. On your long haul bike, I'd opt for the longer cranks, but wouldn't insist on 175's unless you are long legged. If short legged, then the shorter cranks might fit your body better.
 
Your decision as to crank length should be based upon pain or lack of it. It doesn't sound as if you are obsessed with speed, but rather just getting there with no pain. Those of us who ride recumbents are locked into the length of the pedal stroke, making our selection of crank length and/or the distance to the cranks from the seat a crucial decision. After experiencing some knee pain when flexing my knees pedaling, I started experimenting with shorter cranks.Iin my case 155mm crankarms, 26/32/52 chainrings. and an 11-34 or 11-32 freewheel gives my 350w and 750w equipped bikes a large range of speed options. I find little difference in having made the change to shorter crankarms, except that I have no knee pain, and that means a lot to me. Long cranks are great for the Tour de France ridden by superbly conditioned athletes. For the rest of us, we have to adapt to what suits us best. If you need a source of short cranks, recumbent suppliers usually have them. I recently bought a 155mm crankset with 30/42/52 chainrings from Peregrine Bicycle Works, and then changed the small ring to a 26, but it could have been a 24.

Should you try shorter crankarms, you'll find that you spin at higher rpms most of the time, rather than pushing gears that are too high and cause pain and possible damage to your knees Good luck.

Jim
 
Yep, a short crank is ideal for cadence, which you need the most with E-power. I can pedal my bike without effort, no need for the leverage of a long crank when you can start uphill on the high gear. Then, it goes much faster than my cadence ability. The need with a powered bike, is for a big chainring and a short crank, so you can pedal at highest possible speed. I plan my next build with a Schlumpf HS drive, to be able to pedal the bike up to its top speed.
 
I am currently experimenting with 155 mm cranks on a road triple (from Peregrine). I have only had 2 rides with the new cranks but they feel fairly natural and seem to minimize, but not eliminate my current knee pain from sudden onset arthritis. I can actually do 12 miles on the trike much easier than I can walk to the kitchen in my house! To give a fair test I need at least another week of rides ( around 50 miles or so) to see if there is a difference. Your cadence is higher to make up for the shorter length and you need to gear down but the flex in the knee is what causes the pain so any way to minimize flex (deep knee bends with long cranks) should make riding less painful. Now if the temperature would stay above 40 degrees for a couple of days.................!
otherDoc
 
I started out with the standard length cyclone triple crankset and 152mm bottom bracket (much wider than standard) on my build. I think they were 170mm? I found this to be a little dangerous as when the bike was leant over in a turn it would catch the left side pedal :shock: if you kept the pedals turning. I replaced them with 162mm trials cranks and problem solved...it also means I can keep a higher cadenece much easier :wink:

Ian :D
 
MadRhino said:
Yep, a short crank is ideal for cadence, which you need the most with E-power. I can pedal my bike without effort, no need for the leverage of a long crank when you can start uphill on the high gear. Then, it goes much faster than my cadence ability. The need with a powered bike, is for a big chainring and a short crank, so you can pedal at highest possible speed. I plan my next build with a Schlumpf HS drive, to be able to pedal the bike up to its top speed.

For those of us who are not athletes, there must come a point where the extra drag caused by pedalling overcomes what extra power it supplies. I suspect it to be short of 40 mph, but does any of you with a fast ebike have a firm number from experience?
 
JennyB said:
For those of us who are not athletes, there must come a point where the extra drag caused by pedalling overcomes what extra power it supplies. I suspect it to be short of 40 mph, but does any of you with a fast ebike have a firm number from experience?

I think it is more a case of optimising the gearing to match the motor.........or that is what I have done on my build
I have an 88 rpm pedal cadence and 8 speed rear hub......that gives me around 15mph in 1st and 'illegal' in 8th :wink:

Ian :D
 
Thanks all for the info! I'm going to test out something in the 165 length if I can get them, on a set of 4 bolt compact MTB cranks as I need low gears more than high with this build. I have been currently using 170's and have used 175's in the past, none have caused me pain unless I have been in too tall of gear while going up hill (this is unassisted) so I generally have bought mega range cassettes/FW's and some of the smallest granny gears I could find for a standard 3 chainring crank that you find on most older MTB's.

One thing is for sure, with a 16T FW on the "Old-Vinci" with a 28T granny gear is definitely not low enough gear even for a 12% hill just pedaling, with out a heavy loaded cargo/touring bike.
 
City Bikes strikes again! :D

I got most of the stuff that I had bought used traded in (someone didn't detail the receipt enough for the worker that I talk to today to return the freewheels :roll: ) so I had to pay a little out of pocket, but fortunately I went with a much more bicycle knowledgeable friend of mine who steered me to these beauties!

38943924217_large.jpg


38943924216_large.jpg


I am very glad that I switched to something much heavier than the standard square spindle BB to something that should give me a lot more longevity in the long run, especially with such a heavy bike that I will be riding.

My friend had worn out even high quality BB's with square spindles in less than a month taking his kids up and down the hills here, so I am sure I would have similar trouble once I started hauling more weight on a regular basis.

All I need now is to either choose a rear rack to modify for use with the mid drive hub motor or have my neighbor weld up something from scratch (I'm leaning towards having him build something) so I can have something that will accommodate a standard disc brake and the Drop-outs from the exercise bike frame.

I will of course lighten this up so I won't have such a heavy square tube by cutting it in half and adding "Lightning" holes (to make it faster of course! :p ) to the main channel.

I might see if there is a steel rack that would work well with disc and could have the drop-outs added to it, but I think in the end I will be better off custom.
 
Dingo2024 said:
JennyB said:
For those of us who are not athletes, there must come a point where the extra drag caused by pedalling overcomes what extra power it supplies. I suspect it to be short of 40 mph, but does any of you with a fast ebike have a firm number from experience?

I think it is more a case of optimising the gearing to match the motor.........or that is what I have done on my build
I have an 88 rpm pedal cadence and 8 speed rear hub......that gives me around 15mph in 1st and 'illegal' in 8th :wink:

Of course, but my thinking is this (figures from http://www.noping.net/english/):

Suppose you can sustain 200 watts pedal power alone. That's about 17.6 mph on a racing bike, riding hands on the tops. If you had a miraculous, weightless system to get you up to 30 mph, that would need to provide 632 more watts. Now you stop pedalling. You have only 632 watts, but let's assume that your total aero drag (without your feet flapping around) is reduced to the equivalent of riding on the drops. You are now travelling at 30.9 mph!

That's pretty much in line with my own experience. I once had a bike with a 130" top gear, and found that I could only ever use it effectively if there was a howling gale of a tailwind. It's different with a recumbent, where there may be no difference in drag between pedalling and not pedalling, and at these power levels an additional 200 watts buys an additional 3-5 mph top speed.

That's why I'm wondering - has anyone found practical advantage in gearing an upright ebike for sustained pedalling at much more than 30 mph?
 
JennyB said:
Dingo2024 said:
JennyB said:
For those of us who are not athletes, there must come a point where the extra drag caused by pedalling overcomes what extra power it supplies. I suspect it to be short of 40 mph, but does any of you with a fast ebike have a firm number from experience?

I think it is more a case of optimising the gearing to match the motor.........or that is what I have done on my build
I have an 88 rpm pedal cadence and 8 speed rear hub......that gives me around 15mph in 1st and 'illegal' in 8th :wink:

Of course, but my thinking is this (figures from http://www.noping.net/english/):

Suppose you can sustain 200 watts pedal power alone. That's about 17.6 mph on a racing bike, riding hands on the tops. If you had a miraculous, weightless system to get you up to 30 mph, that would need to provide 632 more watts. Now you stop pedalling. You have only 632 watts, but let's assume that your total aero drag (without your feet flapping around) is reduced to the equivalent of riding on the drops. You are now travelling at 30.9 mph!

That's pretty much in line with my own experience. I once had a bike with a 130" top gear, and found that I could only ever use it effectively if there was a howling gale of a tailwind. It's different with a recumbent, where there may be no difference in drag between pedalling and not pedalling, and at these power levels an additional 200 watts buys an additional 3-5 mph top speed.

That's why I'm wondering - has anyone found practical advantage in gearing an upright ebike for sustained pedalling at much more than 30 mph?

Thats a really good question! I think that the biggest obstacle there is Aero at 30+ MPH. That is where a truly Aero fairing would come into play. I forget who it was, someone was experimenting with a home-made one (or off the shelf I forget) on their up-right, and I think it was pretty mixed results, seemed to be a lot of effort for little gain, maybe 3 -4 extra MPH, but sustaining those speeds on low watts would make it worth it for sure!

The biggest problem I have with most of the up-right bike fairings personally is they look weird and don't offer much protection for the rider from the elements. The ones that do are clumsy and even worse looking! :roll: :lol:

I have pretty much given-up on that idea for my Cargo/Touring bike, and just trying to stay minimalist and maybe build some kind of weather proof cover for my pannier bags, but other than that, I'm going for more minimalist.
 
Hi,

I'm not sure what Zinn means by "inseam" and "leg length". You can use his fit calculator (which uses "crotch to floor") to see if the inseam generates a matching number.

Doc: You might want to look at the quote by Andy Pruitt.

http://zinncycles.com/Zinn/index.php/components/custom-cranks
Proportional Crank Length
No other conclusion makes sense to me. Muscles and joints work most effectively when operating in a certain range of motion. Short riders should not be required to force their muscles through a greater range of motion than the person with an 80cm inseam riding a 172.5mm crank. And on the other end, 7-foot basketball players do not bend their legs any less when they jump than shorter players. So why should they use minimal knee bend and operate their muscles only through a tiny part of their range when they ride a bike?

Your legs turning the cranks is what propels you along on your bike, it’s your motor. Proper crank length is crucial to achieve maximum efficiency in your “motor”. Therefore, crank length is one of the most important aspects of bike fit. It’s not enough to just scale the frame geometry to fit a rider. Crank length must also be adjusted, and Zinn Cycles is one of the only manufacturers in the world that makes cranks outside of the standard 170 – 180mm range.

What length?
Your ideal crank length is in the range of 21% – 21.6% of your leg length. Start by measuring your inseam with your feet 2″ apart. Be sure to measure all the way to the pubic bone. Convert your inseam measurement to millimeters and multiply by .216 and also by .21. This will give you a range of crank length that is appropriate for you.

Once you begin riding your custom cranks, your legs will be pedaling at a more natural range of motion. This allows you to use your leg muscles to their full potential. After a short adjustment period, the new crank length will begin to feel more natural. The vast majority of our customers have reported increased power, easier and faster climbing, decreased times on local rides, less fatigue, less joint pain, and overall performance increases when they went to the proportional length crank.

http://zinncycles.com/Zinn/index.php/archives/1388
Why custom cranks and how long to get them?

Here is the formula I recommend:
Crank length (mm) = Inseam (mm) X 0.216

Or, more conservatively for tall riders:
Crank length (mm) = Inseam (mm) X 0.21

Another formula that I like is from fit guru Bill Boston (http://www.billbostoncycles.com) and comes up with similar results. He suggests measuring your femur (thighbone) from the center of the hip joint to the end of the bone in inches. This number will be your crank length in centimeters. For instance, if you have a 20” femur, you would have a 20cm (200mm) crank.

Andy Pruitt, director of the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine and fit expert of many superstars, has a few other things to add.
“Crank length formulas using femoral length or leg length are fine,” he says. “But if your style is mashing, use longer cranks, and if you are a spinner, shorten them a bit. Mountain bike cranks should be a bit longer for that moment to get you over a rock. Use 2.5mm or 5mm longer for purely time trial usage, and vice versa for the track.” Pruitt warns that, although one study showed that everybody was faster with a super-long crank over short distances, you can hurt yourself if you do not stick to proportionality. Pruitt goes on to say that if you use cranks too long for your legs, the compressive and shear forces in the knee joints “go up exponentially.” (Compressive forces in the knee are stagnant, felt behind the knee. Shear forces are the result of fore-aft sliding of the condyles – cartilage-covered rounded femur ends – as they are rotating on the soft meniscus – cartilage pad – atop the knee platform.)

What else to change?
Before I get into the whys and wherefores of these formulas for crank length, I want to tell you what other ramifications adjusting the crank length has on your bike position. It makes sense that if you increase your crank length, you should lower your saddle and stem by the amount of the change, and vice versa for decreasing crank length. This maintains the same pedal-to-saddle reach. However, in practice with riders on stock frames and cranks, I have found that it is often preferable to leave the stem and bar where they were and only move the saddle. With tall riders, this is because they often have an exceptionally large amount of drop from their saddle to their handlebars anyway, if they have shoehorned themselves onto a bike that is too small for them. Increasing the crank length requires lowering the saddle the amount of the length change; that’s a given, assuming your seat height was correct before. But the longer crank will make the knees come up higher and may hit the chest and give an uncomfortably sharp hip angle if the large amount of drop from saddle to bar is maintained. Conversely, a short rider may have minimal drop from their saddle to bar on a stock frame, having already lowered the handlebar as far as it could go. This may be as low as they can tolerate having their handlebar anyway, since if their stock crank length may be proportionately so long for them that their knees come up very high, and they cannot drop their chest down very far without contacting them. When they switch to a proportionate-length crank, the saddle will come up the length of the crank-length decrease, giving them more saddle-to-handlebar drop, which may work out well, since their knees will not be coming up so high, and they will not be so constrained by their hip angles and chest height.

You could argue that you should also push the saddle forward and increase your stem length by the amount of the length increase as well. This adds some complexity, because, to maintain the same pedal-to-saddle distance and saddle-to-bar drop, the seat and handlebar should also go up half the distance of the forward movement as well. The inverse is true if you switch to a shorter crank – raise the saddle and bar the amount of the length change and perhaps adjust the saddle aft.

With a longer crank, your pedal clearance in a corner will be reduced, and vice versa with a shorter crank. So, ideally, the frame’s bottom bracket height should be greater with the longer crank and lower with the shorter one. And since more or less of your leg extension will be taken up in the crank if it is longer or shorter, the seat tube should be shortened or lengthened accordingly (from the bottom, by raising or lowering the bottom bracket).
Why proportionality between leg and crank length?

No other conclusion makes sense to me. Muscles and joints work most effectively when operating in a certain range of motion. Short riders should not be required to force their muscles through a greater range of motion than the person with an 80cm inseam riding a 172.5mm crank. And on the other end, 7-foot basketball players do not bend their legs any less when they jump than shorter players. So why should they use minimal knee bend and operate their muscles only through a tiny part of their range when they ride a bike?

I published some crank-length tests in VeloNews in 1995 and 1996. These tests were either inconclusive or seemed to indicate that all riders, regardless of size, put out more maximum power with super-long (220mm) cranks, and that all riders had lower heart rates at low power outputs with super-short cranks (100 to 130mm). My experimental method in these tests was lacking in those tests, but I was simply not willing to stop there, since I knew from personal experience that increasing crank length for a tall rider like myself (6’6”) makes a difference. It also made sense to me that there must be a limitation dependent on rider size for how long you can go. In the late 1970s, when I went from 177.5mm to 180mm cranks, the improvement in my racing results was marked. In 1980 when I was on the national team, coach Eddie Borysewicz told me that I should be using yet longer cranks than my 180s, and longer yet for time trials and hill climbs, but I never found anything longer at that time. Since then, I have continued to experiment, beginning by using the range of cranks that Bruce Boone built for those 1996 tests (eight cranks, evenly spaced between 100mm and 220mm) and of these eight, I found that I was most happy with 202.3mm cranks. (The weird length has nothing to do with some super-accurate calculation related to my leg length; it is because the eight test cranks were evenly spaced between 100mm and 220mm, or every 17+ millimeters.) Eventually, those Boone 202.3s broke, and we started making our own (stronger) custom cranks. For at least three years now, I have been riding 205mm cranks most of the time (200mm on the mountain bike, due to clearance constraints) and find that I not only like them, but that I am considerably faster on the nearby, approximately half-hour climb up Flasgstaff mountain west of Boulder that I do frequently with a stopwatch.

Thus encouraged, I have conducted other crank studies ever since. However, in understanding what went wrong in those 1995 and 1996 tests, I developed higher standards for what constitutes a publishable test, and my subsequent tests still have not met that standard, mostly due to having too few subjects (often just me and a couple of other riders). Too bad, because I have put a lot of time and effort into a number of them! It is one thing if you are a physiology researcher trained and funded to do these sorts of studies. It is not easy to do a test in which you eliminate all other variables besides crank length. It requires lots of time, planning, willing (read, paid) subjects and equipment. It’s hardly the type of thing that is realistic to undertake with no budget in order to write one article for a cycling magazine that still expects an article from me on something else every two weeks as well. Anyway, I have conducted all of these recent tests on the road with tall riders (6’5” and over) because it was simpler and cheaper to use my personal stable of bikes than to always be switching cranks on other people’s bikes. By being willing to take my custom crank recommendations, my tall custom frame customers have also have graciously acted as test subjects. Besides having data showing people going faster and generating more power on my own personal bikes, it is hard to deny it when you have many people raving about how much more comfortable, natural and powerful they feel on cranks proportional to their leg length. On mountain bikes, tall customers report being able to smoothly power over obstacles they could not have before. They also report liking the longer, more stable stance when coasting downhill over technical obstacles. And the higher bottom bracket I build into the frame makes hitting the chainrings on logs and the like almost impossible (especially with 29-inch wheels), yet the rider’s center of gravity is no higher (since the bottom foot is still the same height above the ground due to the longer crank).

The results indicate clearly enough to me that crank length must be proportional to rider size in some way. Whether you decide it is proportional to leg length, thigh length, overall height or something else is a minor point. The same goes for what you think the constant of proportionality should be. It could be something different from 0.21 or 0.216, but whatever it is, it will indicate for a lot of people that they should be using a vastly different length than they are. That is the part that is hard to accept for a lot of people. No matter our size, we are by and large all stuck on cranks of the same length. The 3% difference between a 170mm and a 175mm hardly constitutes a length choice, and the 180mm you can find in only top-end component groups still does not broaden the range much. Accepting that cranks should be scaled up or down with rider size opens up a whole can of worms that a lot of riders, bikes-shop personnel and component companies would just as soon stayed closed. Obviously, economies of scale of producing cranks go out the window if you have to supply a range from say, 140mm to 220mm, and a bike shop’s inventory costs go way up to stock a lot more lengths as well. The same goes for bike frames; if a manufacturer increases the bottom bracket height with every increase in frame size in order to accommodate crank arms proportional to the size of the rider, its costs and complexity of frame jigs goes up, and the staff training and inventory costs for bike shops goes up as well.

There are obvious practical reasons to stick with the status quo. Those may have to do with what is best for the pocketbooks of consumers, bike shops, and manufacturers, but not what is best for the rider’s performance and comfort.

The constant of proportionality
Okay, if you have accepted the idea of a proportional relationship between leg and crank length, how would you come up with the constant of proportionality relating them? I propose that one way would be by looking at what works for a wide range of riders. For instance, the world is full of successful bike racers with 80cm (31.5”) inseams. Thirty years ago, racers with inseams this length probably would have been racing on 170mm cranks. Nowadays, they would likely be on the extremely popular 172.5mm length. (In 2003, approximately 50% of the high-end carbon road cranks that FSA sold were 172.5mm, 35% were 175mm, and only 15% were 170mm. Campagnolo’s approximate 2003 sales numbers were 60% in 172.5mm, 30% in 170mm and 10% in 175mm. That is a big change from around 1970, when the vast majority of all high-end road cranks were 170mm.) If a rider has an 800mm (80cm) inseam, 170/800 = 0.2125. In other words, a 170mm crank would be 21.3% of an 80cm leg length. Furthermore, a 172.5mm would be 21.6% of it, while 165mm would be 20.6% and 175mm would be 21.9%. So, if you multiply a rider’s inseam in millimeters by 0.213 or 0.216, you will determine a crank in the same proportion as a 170mm or 172.5mm for a rider with an 80cm inseam. Both riders’ knees and hips will go through the same bending range, and their muscles will reach the same extension and contraction.

If you want to be conservative on the long end, you could go with 0.21 for the constant. This is what I have been doing for a number of years with my very tall custom frame customers. For instance, a 6’7” rider with a 100mm inseam would use a 210mm crank with a 30cm high bottom bracket. My tall and short customers opting for custom, proportional cranks almost universally love the new length. On the other hand, 0.21 gives surprising numbers on the short end, like 168mm for our rider with the 80cm inseam. So you could argue for 0.216, since that yields 172.5mm for an 80cm inseam, consistent with what we see in pro racing. The 6’7” rider’s crankarm gets 6mm longer with 0.216 than 0.21, but notice that we are now haggling over a few millimeters while being centimeters beyond where the tall rider would have been when locked into the normal crank length range.

Can you test for what is ideal for you?
Trying various cranks and seeing how you measure up against other riders with whom you are competitive or timing yourself up a climb you frequently clock is a good way. There are adjustable-length cranks available, but they are boat anchors and increase your stance width, rendering objectivity difficult. On http://www.nettally.com/palmk/Crankset.html Kirby Palm offers some ideas about crank length testing.
 
Hey Mitch
I read that study a long time ago and am concerned about only one thing that the author seems not to address: Pain! It is one thing to go after maximum power but in no case does he address the issue of shorter cranks creating a less painful pedaling environment! His points about the rolling/sliding movement of the condyle cartilages over each other is exactly where degenerative bone diseases like arthritis attack and cause pain! I am more than willing to take the equally unsubstantiated claim that shorter cranks cause less pain since it is easy to test for. Only 1 variable, to wit: PAIN! Since I am a test cohort of one, it is easy to perform the tests. Over the next several weeks I will ride with shorter pedals. If i still have pain I will shorten those pedals a bit more, probably in 10-15mm increments. If I get to 100mm and I still have pain on pedaling, I will ride my trike like an electric wheelchair. But I suspect that will not be the case.
otherDoc
 
Hi Doc,
docnjoj said:
Hey Mitch
I read that study a long time ago and am concerned about only one thing that the author seems not to address: Pain! It is one thing to go after maximum power but in no case does he address the issue of shorter cranks creating a less painful pedaling environment! His points about the rolling/sliding movement of the condyle cartilages over each other is exactly where degenerative bone diseases like arthritis attack and cause pain! I am more than willing to take the equally unsubstantiated claim that shorter cranks cause less pain since it is easy to test for. Only 1 variable, to wit: PAIN!...
otherDoc

Andy Pruitt said:
Andy Pruitt, director of the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine and fit expert of many superstars, has a few other things to add.

“Crank length formulas using femoral length or leg length are fine,” he says. “But if your style is mashing, use longer cranks, and if you are a spinner, shorten them a bit. Mountain bike cranks should be a bit longer for that moment to get you over a rock. Use 2.5mm or 5mm longer for purely time trial usage, and vice versa for the track.” Pruitt warns that, although one study showed that everybody was faster with a super-long crank over short distances, you can hurt yourself if you do not stick to proportionality. Pruitt goes on to say that if you use cranks too long for your legs, the compressive and shear forces in the knee joints “go up exponentially.” (Compressive forces in the knee are stagnant, felt behind the knee. Shear forces are the result of fore-aft sliding of the condyles – cartilage-covered rounded femur ends – as they are rotating on the soft meniscus – cartilage pad – atop the knee platform.)
  • "hurt yourself" isn't (briefly) addressing pain?

    "if you do not stick to proportionality" the sentence mentions the effect of too long but my understanding of his quote is that either too long or too short would be harmful.
 
MitchJi said:
"if you do not stick to proportionality" the sentence mentions the effect of too long but my understanding of his quote is that either too long or too short would be harmful.
[/list]
It could be interpreted that way, but not logically. It is easily understandable that an exageration of the amplitude would be taxing the joint, but how could one hurt himself by repeating a movement that is shorter than his biomechanic maximum amplitude. In fact, logic dictates that a movement would be safer when it is kept shorter, not reaching this maximum, while it is the optimal performance that would be attained at this precise maximum amplitude.
 
Good points all, I read that entire article, very interesting! I think the point is, that the article was addressing performance VS comfort, and I don't think there is a "one size fits all" approach, as with everything, everyone might have a different experience, I like the guidelines here though.

I have found in general that my "comfort zone" and performance optimum are one in the same (so far, might change if I have joint pain from arthritis later on) and that 175 has been my favorite size that I have used, and I am definitely more of a "masher" than a spinner, and it just so happens my new cranks are 175's so I will see how they work out, and if they don't suit me, I can always take them back to City Bikes to exchange for a more suitable set.

According to the article, with my 31in inseam, 170's should be ideal to me, but it also says that "mashers" do better with longer cranks, so I think these should work well for me, and there is something to be said for more leverage, and climbing hills that makes more sense to me to err to longer end of the range for my body than the shorter.

That being said, I definitely know that anything smaller than 170 is not the right size for me, feels too cramped and I don't seem to get good speed out of a bike that way just pedaling.
 
I can certainly see how cranks that are too long can be harmful, but also not sure how too short can be deleterious to knee health unless you don't gear down. Then you are putting excessive force through less distance (shorter lever arm) which certainly could be harmful. That is definitiely NOT the way short cranks should be used. The knee problems seem to come from excessive range of motion which is what the long cranks do. His study really addresses performance with only a passing mention of pain. We do need some definitive medical data on knees of bicyclists as they age vs. crank size. Very specialized and not easy to get data for. Perhaps take racers and do a longitudinal study over 20 years! Way too long for me!
otherDoc
 
Yeah, I hear ya doc, I might find in the near future that I need the shorter stuff, and I don't really see a problem with shorter cranks in the issue of pain or problems, but for myself, I have not had any real problems with shorter cranks, and I ride on an upright bike, not a 'bent, so I'm sure there is a big difference there, but I always felt cramped in the sense of not being able to stretch my legs with anything smaller than 170MM. It was never painful, just felt like not being able to walk with a normal stride, like if I were walking and I was forced to take smaller steps than I normally would. I'm mostly interested in optimum power on hills while still being kind to my knees, so I think the 175MM should be ideal for me, but if I get even the slightest inkling that it's going to cause me problems, I will go back to 170 because I am wanting to do this for many many miles with out problems. :)
 
I understand, Li-Cycle. Recumbents have a unique problem in that you can apply more force than your own weight, sort of like those quad builder weight machines. A 150 lb rider with powerful legs could probably push the pedals with 250 lbs of force. Probably not conducive to having your knees for a lifetime! :shock:
otherDoc
 
I am now looking for 140mm short crankset on which i would like to put large rings [56t biggest] BCD 130.
At the moment i have shimano tiagra installed.

I did a lot of google research but i believe there are none on the market? i found some but they are 110bcd and for BMX - not quite familiar with compability...

On my recumbent bike im using 140mm crankset which feels much better than 170mm and more. [knee problem]
 
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