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Question for the Lipo fans

I agree with dogman.

I use 3 separate lipo chargers and they all charge and monitor-balance there own pack. I guess most of my charging rig is off the shelf HK unmodified stock components. They are designed to charge the pack's I am using. If there was a charging malfunction as long as I am following the instructions of the charger manual. Actually I didn't get a manual from HK lol Well lets just say the charging instructions and warning on the lipo battery pack's then I am fine.

The chargers monitor cell voltage-charge time-battery temp-forward Ah among other things its like tipple fail safe.

We got a phone call a a few years ago that there had been a fire in one of our investment property's. The tenant had parked there jetski boat into the garage walked up stairs and a fuel container on it had ignited and set fire to the fibreglass-plastic body. We were lucky that they were able to tow the thing out of the garage before it did any serious damage to our rental property.Fuel and hot engines are something we all deal with day to day and think nothing of it.

I often walk into our little garden shed in our back yard on a hot summers day. When you first open the door It stinks of Gas fumes from lawn mower's edge trimmer and chainsaws all venting there share of petroleum fumes. One spark is all it would take.

I would say before they ban lipo they should ban things like power boards first. You know the kind that have 10 sockets on the one board. Halogen down lights are another good one. I have seen a lot of teenagers store there sony PS3 consoles in air tight tv cabinets- boy they pump out some heat!

I think the opening post was a little silly. I guess its a good reminder to just think about the 1 -10000 chance with lipo going bad and take a few steps to lower or eliminate danger to others if any thing got out of hand.

I know I now keep my lipo on my bike that is parked outside on a concrete porch so if there was a charging fire all I would loose is my ebike. Just on the odd chance something happens. I know we have lipo in our mobiles and laptops but how many mobiles are packing 20ah of lipo its a bit bigger flame LOL

Kurt
 
Kurt said:
I know we have lipo in our mobiles and laptops but how many mobiles are packing 20ah of lipo its a bit bigger flame LOL


"The word" :p around the traps is Luke's (a.k.a LiveForPhysics) ..laptop & mobile
both have been modified with 'non stock' LiPO cells!!!11 :shock: ... his lappy iz said to be fitted out with 30ah's
of nanotech!! :lol: necessary to keep LFP online, CoNNeCTed! to the interwebZ, for the extended
48hr custom e-bike fabricating sessions!!! etc etc .. :wink:
..... :p his Android Phone!!...itz strapped to a single nano tech LiPO 'brick'!!!!1... :mrgreen: :p :lol:

KiM
 
Grizzlybear said:
When you buy something with a Lipo battery in it, it is the manufacturer that takes responsibility, when you take it upon yourself to use the technology yourself, it's a totally different ball game. Am I really the "moron" or are you? I am an Engineer and Health and Safety qualified as well, tell it to the judge guys!!!!!

It's all about intent. You don't intend to kill people with your stove grease fire. Yet YOU bought the grease. And (oh my god) you COOKED with it! Death penalty! It doesn't work like that. What is the difference with lipo? A legal consumer product used in a reasonable manner with no intent to harm.

We will tell it to the judge. And the judge will be reasonable, not a safety nazi.
 
Judges come in all stripes.


It is a question of due-diligence. If the information were reasonably available to reduce the likelyhood of damage and that information was disregarded, more fault could be attributed to the user.

Fuel-containers have warnings. Fuel pumps have warnings. Vehicles have warnings regarding fuel/fueling.

What does LiPo have?
 
"Judge, it didn't have a proper warning on it like cigarette lighters, no, i mean, fireplaces, no, electrical wiring, no wait..."
 
Kurt said:
I know we have lipo in our mobiles and laptops but how many mobiles are packing 20ah of lipo its a bit bigger flame LOL
I think it's more than just capacity. The LiPo in consumer products has a very low discharge rate (~1C) while RC LiPo discharge rate can be up 50C. I also think the quality control process is much higher for LiPo in consumer products, mainly because of the greater exposure to potential litigation. HP, Dell have issued recalls for some of their laptop batteries. Has HobbyKing ever done that?
 
PROSECUTOR: "If you were expecting a warning label, you must have had some knowledge of risk. The online seller declares on the site to never charge unattended". "The manufacturer has guidelines that you did not follow...."


Zippy Battery says:

ALWAYS charge and store on a concrete surface where there are no flammable objects within 10 feet (3 meters) of the charging area. NEVER charge above the max 2C charge rate. Never disassemble or modify pack wiring in any way or puncture cells....


Leptron says:

SAFETY INFORMATION AND HANDLING PRECAUTIONS

Introduction

Modern Lithium Polymer batteries (LiPo, Li-Poly) are a preferred source of power for flying models because of their ability to store and deliver large amounts of energy from lightweight packs. Performance wise, these new batteries have much more in common with model aircraft fuel than with any previous battery technology and they deserve similar respect. For safe handling, it is useful to Think of Lithium Polymer Batteries as Fuel.

Treated with respect in knowledgeable hands, Lithium batteries have been proven worldwide to be a controllable, practical and enjoyable power source for model aviation.

What Can Go Wrong

Fire can be caused by: 'Overcharging' (wrong charger or charger setting, unbalanced battery load, charger fouled by poor power supply), charging a damaged cell, or pack and short circuit (including crash damage).

Cells or packs can be damaged by: 'Over-discharging' (running 'too flat' and/or too hot, discharging an unbalanced battery load), short circuit, and crash damage.

The definitions of 'overcharging' and 'too flat' are detailed in the dos and don'ts section.

With the exception of a very small number of fires that have resulted directly from crash damage at the flying field, fires have almost always occurred during charging. These fires have been almost exclusively permitted by avoidable human error. Therefore the main purpose of this information is:
To provide information that can help you actively avoid a dangerous charging situation.
To provide some standard precautions to limit loss or injury in case a fire results anyway.

Lithium Polymer Jargon
3s1p – means a battery pack containing 3 cells in series, 1 cell in parallel. 5s2p means a battery pack containing 5 cells in series, 2 cells in parallel, and so on.
Cells in series "s" add to the Voltage (V). For every "s" add 3.7 Volts (nominal). Parallel cells "p" add to the capacity of the battery in mAh. A "2p" pack made from 2500 mAh cells will become a 5000mAh pack, "3p" 7500mAh, and so on. The choice of single or multiple "p" packs is a feature of LiPo (for NiCd and NiMH packs the term "p" is redundant as these packs are invariably "1p").
For LiPo packs made with identical kinds of cells, a 3s2p pack can deliver twice the current for roughly the same duration as a 3s1p pack, or the same current for roughly twice the length of time.
In our 3s1p/3s2p example, note that the 3s2p will be about twice the weight and size. For maximum power-t-weight performance in a model, we would generally choose the 3s2p only when the required current approaches or exceeds the discharge "C" rating of the 3s1p.
"C" is a 1000:1 ratio of the capacity of a cell or pack in mAh to a given current in Amps. It is normally used to define maximum current-handling capabilities for charging (e.g., 1C or 2C) and discharging. A large "C rating" for discharge permits high currents from smaller packs. For instance, a 20C continuous rated 5000mAh pack is able to deliver 100 Amps continuously. In this instance, 20C constant should be seen as the maximum "full Throttle" That can be applied ongoing before damage to the pack will be inevitable. Like running a sports car at full throttle all the time, habitually running a Lipo pack at its maximum C rating is not good practice.
3.7v is the nominal voltage for LiPo Chemistry. The actual voltage per series cell will increase when fully charged to about 4.2V and decrease to 3.1V at full permitted discharge.
4.25v is a maximum - charging at higher voltage is dangerous. 3.1V is a minimum - continuing to draw operating current (Amps) when the cell has reached 3.1V will cause rapid overheating and damage.
For charging set-up, we are principally concerned with the number of cells in SERIES. A 3s2p pack MUST be charged as a "3-cell" Lithium Polymer (LiPo) pack, sometimes shown as a 11.1V pack (=3 x 3.7V). We should normally limit the current during charging to a maximum of 1C. For instance, 5 Amps for a 5000mAh pack. An appropriate LiPo charger will normally prevent overcharging if this data is entered correctly.
The new 20C chemistry can be charged at 2C and above for the first 90% of its capacity, given proper supervision and/or appropriate LiPo fast charger. For most LiPo chargers on the market, setting the charger to a 1C charge rate should be regarded as good practice.


To Actively Prevent a Fire:

Lithium Polymer Dos

DO -
Always use a correctly specified Lithium Polymer charger (mandatory).
Always double-check that your multi-function charger is set in LiPo mode (extremely important).
Ensure that your charger has a clean power supply such as a car battery that is not itself on charge.
Always set the charger to the total series cell count "s" of your pack (or packs if charging in series).
Read the battery label to confirm the cell count for charging shown e.g., "charge as 3 cell".
Handle and transport carefully to avoid piercing, deformation, or short circuit with other objects.
Disconnect batteries fully from ESCs with BEC to prevent slow over-discharge.
Ensure connectors are insulated correctly to prevent short circuit in handling or storage.
Always check that batteries are physically and electrically undamaged before charge or discharge.

Lithium Polymer Don'ts

DO NOT -
Ever allow charging to continue above 4.25V per "s" series cell (definition of overcharging).
Confuse the total number of actual cells in a pack (e.g., 6 for 3s2p) with the series cell count (3 for 3s2p).
Set the charge current limit above 1C unless you have special equipment available and supervise the process fully. 1C = 3.2 Amps for a 3200Ah pack, 0.83Amps for an 830mAh pack, and so on. Chose an available charger setting at or below the 1C value for your pack.
Charge dissimilar or un-matched packs in series or with any difference in cell type, cell capacity, pack capacity, or charge state (+ / - 0.03V per cell). If in any doubt, charge separately.
Permit your pack to be discharged below 3.1V per cell (hint, use monitoring and timing or a Lithium safe ESC, land immediately in case of noticeable power drop, over-discharge=overheating/damage).
Expose batteries to intense heat or prolonged exposure to elevated temperature.
Charge any pack containing one or more damaged or swollen cell.
Continue charging if any part of the pack is getting warm (Lipo packs should charge cool).
Charge any pack that is undervoltage after recovery (under 3.1V per series cell).
Charge batteries unattended, always remain alert and monitor the charging process.

Limit the Consequences of a Potential Fire Hazard

Charge in an isolated area away from flammables and valuables and avoid charging batteries in the model. If you decide to charge in the vicinity of other property, equip your charging location with a dry extinguisher or fire blanket. Never charge in a moving vehicle where the dangers of fire and smoke can be compounded by the risk of a road accident. If the battery is crashed in a model, or gets warm during charging, place the battery in an open space for observation. Never place the battery directly into a vehicle, clubhouse, garage, or home. If at any time you observe a cell or pack that has started to balloon or swell up, place in a safe area for observation. If swelling occurs while charging, disconnect immediately and place in a safe place for observation. If the wire leads accidentally short out, place battery in a safe place and observe for 15 minutes. If you determine that the battery should be disposed of, discharge it slowly to dead flat before throwing away or recycling so it does not present a short-circuit danger to the waste disposal system. Use a light bulb or immerse in salt water to discharge slowly.

Please Note: Terms of Use

The purpose of this document is to warn you of the safety considerations surrounding batteries of this type so that you are better informed when making decisions and taking precautions concerning their use. These batteries are intended for RC flight only, no other use is approved. Because RC modeling invariably requires decisions about preparation and deployment to pass beyond our control (and that of our retailers or agents) your decision to use LEPTRON/FlightPower products incorporates your agreement that you have read and understood that safety precautions printed here and on each battery pack, and that you agree to accept full responsibility for any injury, loss or damage resulting from all circumstances surrounding your use or misuse of this product. You are also responsible for inspecting and detecting any signs of damage or defect before and after flight, and prior to charging, and to discontinue use immediately if any such issue arises. If you do not agree to these terms of use, you are under no obligation to proceed; instead you may contact LEPTRON.com to arrange for the return of this product to us in its original condition for a full refund.

FlightPower Lithium Polymer, Autography Flight Technology, Ltd., United Kingdom.
 
Lipo used for RC were never designed for use in our application. All precaution should be followed for safe use. I don't plan to bulk charge with my setup since my risk tolerance is a bit higher. My garage is attached to my house and so cluttered that I really need to careful of any mishaps. Get yourself a good reliable RC balance charger. I like the Hyperions since they can go to 14S and up to 28s if you get two of them. 1010b has been reliable for me as well, but the 1030b caused me some concern after it went up in flames. This was unacceptable and really signified a poor design. They are also limited to 10s packs. Charging such big pack, do you really want to risk it on cheap chargers?

While bulk charging can be done, this is a throwback to charging Lipos in the early days of RC's. Too many fires, causing the industry to provide safer charge systems, balance chargers were created to help solve these issues. I've recently had problems with my Konion packs, these cells don't require balancing so I didn't bothered putting in balance taps. A bad spot weld had broken off and I ended with a pack with one bank at zero and overcharged the rest. This went on for several cycles. The point I want to make is shit just happens, so take the precautions needed.

I don't recall any comercilized ebikes going with RC type lipos, they have all kept away from this chemistry. NMC seems to be the choice for lithium in EVs these days. Eventually we will have a safer chemistry with inert electrolytes. Then these discussions will be mute, since why would people choose a more volatile chemistry when a safer one is available. For the time being, RC Lipo's are cheap and give the most density, but I do rate them as a higher risk compared to other battery chemistry.
 
The warning label on the lipo battery's states to charge on a concrete surface with no flammable objects within 3m.

Really its saying is you should be charging in a completely empty large room with high ceilings and a concrete floor.With your lipo pack dead in the middle of the room. Or really what it is saying is you should be charging outside. 3m in all directions is a big empty space its a 6m circle.

Kurt
 
kfong said:
Lipo used for RC were never designed for use in our application.

Wellz....My lipo are powering an 'RC motor' AND!... i also use an 'RC controller' I use an 'RC charger'
to charge them too! :-| Does this make my lipo right for the application? :mrgreen: :p

KiM
 
Ha ha Kim, leave it to you to find fault in my logic. But really the big stuff was meant to power the large scale RC planes remotely. How we abuse them is our concern. Just glad they make them big now, or we would be stuck with small scale stuff to use :mrgreen:

AussieJester said:
kfong said:
Lipo used for RC were never designed for use in our application.

Wellz....My lipo are powering an 'RC motor' AND!... i also use an 'RC controller' I use an 'RC charger'
to charge them too! :-| Does this make my lipo right for the application? :mrgreen: :p

KiM
 
Accidents can and will happen, the most common cause of fires is usually lack of supervision, whether it be cooking with oil, kids in the garage or left alone with a lighter or matches, smokers falling asleep with cig in hand, heaters near flammables etc, lipo is no different, heed the warnings, treat it as a flammable item, correct monitoring and if it ignites your apartment after all precautions are taken, it's still an accident, you won't go to jail
 
Lol, i'm not worried.. try to pin the blame on me.. try! It would be an accident like anything else.

I don't lose sleep over my lipos even though i have lived in apartments for a while, for the following reasons:

1) i never overcharge my lipo, i cut 5% off the top of my charge voltage as a safety buffer.
2) i never overdischarge my lipo... again, 5% off the bottom.
3) my pack is designed that i easily tell visually if a cell puffing.
4) my lipo is padded and puncture is not a possibility even if i crash.
5) i weeded out the packs that would present a problem in the future before i even plugged them into my bike with a graphing discharger ( iCharger ) to identify weak cells.

>75 cycles and counting. No fear here.
 
TylerDurden said:
Lithium Polymer Jargon
3s1p – means a battery pack containing 3 cells in series, 1 cell in parallel. 5s2p means a battery pack containing 5 cells in series, 2 cells in parallel, and so on.
Cells in series "s" add to the Voltage (V). For every "s" add 3.7 Volts (nominal). Parallel cells "p" add to the capacity of the battery in mAh. A "2p" pack made from 2500 mAh cells will become a 5000mAh pack, "3p" 7500mAh, and so on. The choice of single or multiple "p" packs is a feature of LiPo (for NiCd and NiMH packs the term "p" is redundant as these packs are invariably "1p").
Am I the only dyslexic dummy who thinks 5s2p means 2 parallel sets, of 5 cells in series?
"5 cells in series, 2 cells in parallel" means a total of 7 cells with only 2 being in parallel, which of coarse makes no sense in current, voltage or English.
 
Gordo said:
Am I the only dyslexic dummy who thinks 5s2p means 2 parallel sets, of 5 cells in series?
"5 cells in series, 2 cells in parallel" means a total of 7 cells with only 2 being in parallel, which of coarse makes no sense in current, voltage or English.

Yes, that is how it's done. 5 x 2 = 7

:idea:
 
neptronix said:
Lol, i'm not worried.. try to pin the blame on me.. try!
Prosecutor: "Your Honor, the defendant has publicly acknowledged failing to follow the manufacturer's and seller's safety guidelines."

Judge: "Agreed. Counsel for Zippy Batteries and Hobby City may be excused from the courtroom without further deliberation".

:lol:
 
Eh, i'm just thinking about if i burned the entire block down, how could they really point at what kind of batteries i was using?

burntlipo.jpg


Identify this battery in a house that's completely burnt down..
 
I am sure they could get to the bottom of things if there was reason for a big enough investigation.

You would be surprised at what they can read from the evidence after a fire.They could paint good picture of what happened. It wouldn't be hard to test for what chemistry a burned out battery pack was..They can usually paint a good picture of the rough location of where the fire started. And in that rough location they would find your burned to a crisp lipo pack with its charred charge and balance wires still connected to the charger.

Realy its not hard to make it safe even if you do want to charge your packs inside. Just do so in a fire proof box and its not a problem.

Go to your hardware store and get a 10 foot by 3 foot sheet of fibre cement board used as exterior cladding or walls of wet areas in bathrooms. You can score it with a pen knife and brake it to any shape. build yourself a little box and you could overcharge your packs on the end of your bed if you like. It wont burn even with a flame thrower on it and will cost you under $20. You could even use steel door hinges on all the corners so the box folds down.You can drill holes in it with a masonry drill bit.

Here is a sheet I was going to use to build a little box
IMG_1019.jpg

IMG_1020.jpg




Kurt.
 
Then put the box on legs, so there is an air gap between the box and the carpet. or some thing solid, like bricks that can soak up lots of heat.

Back to the liabilty discussion, one thing that could be a factor is any kind of modifications to the battery. Like paralelling them permanently. It could look better later if the batteries had been stored in some kind of fire bag, perhaps in several seperate bags when not in use, rather than kept in a huge pile. Not such a bad idea, for those in apartments and condos.
 
Guys even when looked after properly they can blow up, read this http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/scientists-home-in-on-lithium-battery-safety-flaws/
People have been sent to jail for setting their apartment on fire because they fell asleep smoking in bed!! Lithium polymer is very unpredicable and dangerous and should not be in your home, in the same way you should not keep petrol in your home (petrol is safer!!)....gross negligence!!! you will do jail time if people die!!!

Just trying to educate here, I'm not picking on anyone, some of the replys I've read have made me think why I bother!!

But if it's saved just one life, then it's worth making myself unpopular with some of the people on this forum.
 
I know I'm poking the bear with a stick, but...

In many places, its illegal to smoke in bed, period. you get caught, you go to jail. Its not illegal to smoke on the couch, on the carpet, or while drinking 100 proof alcohol. or while mixing up black powder, or while painting your hosue with flamible oil based paint. Thats all legal to do while smking. Just don't get caught smoking in bed.

Nothing in the article you posted says anything about batteries blowing up when propperly used. Its not even about Lipo, its about All lithium in general. And its dated may 2010, a long time ago in the world of battery development. Its interesting, but not relevant
 
Lithium polymer is the dangerous chemistry, as you well know, I think it's taken that is what's being discussed here, the facts remain. If we are not careful there will be a blanket ban on all Lithium based batteries imposed by government, which is a shame as LIFEPO4 is very safe, and you will not be allowed to use it, so back to NIMH, or LEAD ACID is it?
 
Grizzlybear said:
Lithium polymer is the dangerous chemistry, as you well know, I think it's taken that is what's being discussed here, the facts remain. If we are not careful there will be a blanket ban on all Lithium based batteries imposed by government, which is a shame as LIFEPO4 is very safe, and you will not be allowed to use it, so back to NIMH, or LEAD ACID is it?


Lithium Polymer isn't a chemistry. It's the type of electrolyte. A123 makes Lithium Polymer cells in LiFePO4, even a Ping LiFePO4 pack is Lithium Polymer. LG/NEC/EIG/etc make Lithium Polymer cells in an even safer than LiFePO4 chemistry, NMC. For RC vehicles, they make lithium polymer cells in LiCoO2, the same chemistry used in every single phone and laptop made in the last 5 years.
 
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