Qulbix Q76R Frame Kits & Complete Bikes PRE-ORDER

[madin88]

As I said before I charge my battery pack at 4.18V and I discharge it at 3V and still rocks. I've attached the pics. so I use every drop of my battery pack without problems not only the 75% of it.
The new NCM cells guarantee minimum 1000 cycles and many customers used them to build motorcycles and sport cars. they have tested at 1000A for 10 seconds and after that they were not damaged and still in working conditions.
as I know the company sent some samples to some customers and their feedback was very good.

it would be great if someone could do a cylce test on these cells like done on Samsung 25R for instance:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=73883&start=250#p1154620

than we would have facts about cycle life^^
the manufacturer specs you anyway cannot trust in most cases (especially if it's produced in china and these pouch cells are)
http://westart.manufacturer.globals...ology-3.7V-10Ah-Li-NCM-Electric-bike-batt.htm

 

[macribs]

Many people say Tesla motors use them so they are the best. Of course nowadays 18650 cells have the highest energy density but don't forget that Tesla is a car not an ebike that has limited battery space
so they have plenty of space to install thousands of 18650 cells so the advantage is they draw very low current from each of the cell that's why they live for up to 5 years.

I am not saying those Panasonic's are the best, but they are good. And Tesla gives 8 year full warranty on the battery pack. People that bought recycled tesla cells from ES member Okashira, he buys damaged/totaled Teslas for the batteries, buyers seems to be very happy with their cells. Many people here on the forum that made the switch from lifpo4 or Lipo to 18650 li ion cells are also pleased, both with performance and cell life. I think for getting long cell life each must look into how they will be using their pack, and if high current draw is likely add more parallels.

if u want to draw 150A with your Max E then you need a battery pack capable of giving 450A in order not to destroy the cells in a few months. that means you need a pack that has 30P Samsung cells. Do you have enough space for this?

Yeah but we are talking peak A, not continuous 450A. And those who have made 14p seems very happy. Look I am not arguing for the sake of arguing here, I am trying to learn. Can you show me the math behind your logic here?

if you are speaking about the Samsung INR18650-30Q according to the official PDF specs it gives the ridiculous life expectancy 300 cycles when you draw 15A and after that the cell will be able to give only the 73.8% of it's initial capacity.
that means if you really want to have this battery pack for many cycles you have to charge it up to 4.1V and to discharge it up to 3.2V so with simple words as offroader said yesterday you don't use the 25% of the capacity!
so you don't take advantage of the light weight 18650 cells so simply.

I am sure you have seen many people are going with more voltage then recommended by Adaptto, they are doing 22s and I always thought they did this to be able to not charge past 90% and keep safe margin for the bottom out as well.

As I said before I charge my battery pack at 4.18V and I discharge it at 3V and still rocks. I've attached the pics. so I use every drop of my battery pack without problems not only the 75% of it.
The new NCM cells guarantee minimum 1000 cycles and many customers used them to build motorcycles and sport cars. they have tested at 1000A for 10 seconds and after that they were not damaged and still in working conditions.
as I know the company sent some samples to some customers and their feedback was very good.

I like the numbers here, but so far your post is the only one I have seen that are so sweet on those batteries. And as I said, that HPC video can not really count as source as long as they are invested in those batteries. Saying anything else would be bad for business.

If people start making their own tests of those NCM cells so we can have more sources claiming the same thing it would be easier to take it in. But I guess the form factor of those cells can be limiting for some users, other then that if the cells are really all that well great. It is always nice to have choices.

Anyway I think it's not bad to share our ideas and also I am out of the subject, this session is for Q76R frame.
if someone really wants to find out then he has to do a serious research with facts and then to speak honestly.
you cannot judge something that you don't have into your hands to test it.

I totally agree, and I was not passing judgment I was showing a healthy amount of sceptisism.
Maybe you could make a thread for your battery pack? And we could debate in length there? If you do pls post a link to that in this thread.

 

[icherouveim]

As you said every rider has different needs. I use my ebike for road use only so the most of the time I'm at the red line
to maintain the high speed 70km/h especially when is windy. It takes only 4 seconds to go from 0 to 60km with NMC cells and then to maintain 70km the mini e controller has to work at 60-70A continually.

The conclusion is that if I want to draw 70A at the most of the time I need a battery pack capable of 200A.
When you are at the forest is different, you don't go with the maximum speed all the time so the pack has time to rest
I see the same mistake very often. They draw 140A and they build a pack that cannot handle it.
When you travel with 100km/h or more then you are not only for 10sec at the Peak and the battery pack dies.
So the only way was to find the strongest cells possible.

Also to build 18650 packs is not for everybody. Alex trusted some guru battery guys with lot of experience
and finally they've made three serious mistakes. Can you imagine new amateur guys to weld 18650 cells?
Who can you trust? Plus you have to buy the expensive welding machine if you want to build it by yourself.
So let's give a new promise way for simple people to build good solid battery packs
without the need to pay and to wait for a month for a custom made battery made by who?

 

[Allex]

What you need for 70A constant is a battery that can safely give those 70A. With safe I mean low voltage sag and low heat emission.
I would say that 25R or 30Q in 8p configuration will be more than ok with it. That is 8-9Amps per cell.
The datasheet says 15-20A Cont. But this does not mean you should push them like that. You need to use common sense and know that if using them at that current, cell life will degrade very fast, like down to 70% after 200-300 cycles.

 

[Offroader]

So is Q76R more for children use ? how does it feel ?
Can you ride it like a man or it looks funny to go so fast with such a skinny frame ?
what is your personal opinion? maybe it's better to have two ebikes, one heavy for long trips and one skinny to go around for shopping etc.

Don't get me wrong, you are better off with a thinner frame on an ebike. Very rarely will you ever ride fast enough and with harsh conditions where holding onto the frame will matter. The thinner frame allows the bike to be much more agile and allows for greater turning, which is better for a light weight ebike. I still would recommend the thinner frame if you can get the battery capacity you want, if not then go wider.

I didn't realize just how much I had to fine tune my suspension with the lighter Q76R. I had to drop from 400 spring to a 350 spring, which made a huge difference. I also had to turn down all of my compression on my rear shock and bottom out. I still don't get full travel unless I land a high jump, I may even have to go with a slightly lower spring weight.

It seems bike weight matters much more than rider weight for spring weight. That is why you can't use those spring weight calculators because they don't take into account the weight of the bike, which seems to matter much more than your body weight. I assume this is the case because your weight is basically sprung weight off of the shock because your legs act as perfect suspension.

 

[Offroader]

Offroader, looks like your findings about temp is similar to mine, here is the comparison chart that I made. 30Q stays much cooler at 7A per cell.
7A is pretty much a limit for GA. At 10A they do get way to hot if you need them to survice a long time.
Also take a look at what happens at 3V, 30Q gives you same amount of energy as GA.
https://0bb0688e10cd626d9cdaa22df789bdf0250ef581.googledrive.com/host/0B1sNQs8gfn7iZWVYMm85eFotcnM/30QvsHE2vsGA.jpg


Your internal resistance is 0(mohm), looks like you did not have a constant ride while holding at least 10Amps for 10seconds. I think your drive style is a lot of short bursts on full throttle and then no throttle at all. Do it next time you ride. Would be interesting to see how high your pack resistance is.

Today for some reason my temp probe temps stayed low. I think I may have a faulty probe so I need to place two probes into the battery to compare. The probe is placed into the very center of the pack through a hole I purposely didn't hot glue.

I still believe that my pack should stay cool because I am not drawing high continuous current from it. Max peak current I draw is around 7 amps.

Since my rides are over 2 hours to use about 2500 watt hours, That means I am averaging 1 amp on the cells the entire ride.

I don't know if you can predict temp based on average usage like this, but I am not by any means using 7 amps continuous for very long at all.

This is why I am going to need more testing to see just how hot my pack is getting, because it doesn't feel like it ever got that hot. If it really did get as hot as 50 C, my side covers would be very hot. My motor gets that hot on the outside and it is burning to the touch, I can feel the side of my battery pack through a hole in the top and it is cool.

Allex when comparing the samsung 30Q and Sanyo NCR18650GA, the SANYO does have more capacity. While that does look interesting that the Samsung 30Q can output the same capacity under load at a certain voltage, it is not fair to use.

The reason is, I base my capacity use not under continuous current, but on resting voltage. My ride stops at 3.3 volts, so at that point I will have used the full capacity up to that point which will be about 12% more than the 30Q.

The reason why the Sanyo NCR18650GA should work in my situation is because my pack is so large, 20S14P is a huge pack and my current draw requirements isn't that high. But this will be determined with more testing on how hot this pack is getting and how much capacity loss I have.

I am drawing a peak of 7 amps, but like I have said my average amp draw through my rides is around 1 amp. I think under these circumstances 3500 MAH cells should work.

 

[Quokka]

Postie came today from Slovenia
Initial impressions are that this thing is super sleek and light with some serious strength in the swing arm. Packaging was great and it survived its trip from the other side of the planet without a mark. Let the build begin

 

[Merlin]

Offroader, could you make a video of riding? i want to see how you battery performs under load.(Voltage sag)

 

[Offroader]

Offroader, could you make a video of riding? i want to see how you battery performs under load.(Voltage sag)

What do you suggest, use a chest mounted cam to get the screen of the max-e?

When my battery was at 79 volts today, at full throttle and about 7KW of power, my voltage fell to 74 volts. So 5 volts sag at 22C outside.

 

[Offroader]

Just an update. I'm really liking the thin frame. The bike is extremely agile and a lot more fun when doing single track, with lots of sharp turns compared to the raptor 165. What is crazy is I even pedal sometimes for fun now, because it is so easy as you do not hit the frame.

I don't really know why the bike handles so much better because I'm using the exact same suspension and wheels. Is it the weight loss of 9KG, the skinnier frame, or because the battery volume is so small and centered and weight is more squeezed together tight in the thin frame. Basically better weight distribution of having the battery in a smaller volume, more centrally located, less leverage forces when tiling the frame. Probably a combination of them all.

I went for a 20 mile (32 KM) ride today and battery temps were 40 C at end of ride, but quickly fell to 35C and stayed there. I opened up side covers right after ride and battery sides were 32 C. Outside air temp was around 23C.
I don't think the battery is getting very hot, but it does warm up. Seems to stay around 35C. I'd have to find out what other people are getting on their 18650 pack.

What is the biggest heat problem is the hub motor. I didn't hook up the electronics for my custom cooling and after about 800 watt hours or 10 miles, I'm pushing 120C, controller then cuts back on the power. This limits my riding and especially climbing and taking breaks doesn't help much.
I forgot just how much of a difference my custom electronic ducted fan cooling makes, as I can pretty much drive as hard as I want and never have the controller cut back on power. After the motor heats up anything I climb I notice the controller start limiting power. Because of this I start to limit what I climb, even in the beginning of my rides, boring.

I'm going to hook up the electronics to get my cooling working before riding anymore.

 

[Ohbse]

I went for a 20 mile (32 KM) ride today and battery temps were 40 C at end of ride, but quickly fell to 35C and stayed there. I opened up side covers right after ride and battery sides were 32 C. Outside air temp was around 23C.
I don't think the battery is getting very hot, but it does warm up. Seems to stay around 35C. I'd have to find out what other people are getting on their 18650 pack.

That temperature does not sound at all concerning. Heat is actually desirable for cell performance/lifespan up to a point, you're in the happy part of the graph. Common misconception that Tesla has battery pack cooling because they get so hot they require it, in reality it's used to HEAT the pack vast majority of the time.

What sort of discharge cycles are you doing? I've done something like 350 cycles on my LG HE4 pack and am seeing something like 3% capacity loss, though that's generally from 4.1v>3.65v

 

[Merlin]

Offroader, could you make a video of riding? i want to see how you battery performs under load.(Voltage sag)

What do you suggest, use a chest mounted cam to get the screen of the max-e?

When my battery was at 79 volts today, at full throttle and about 7KW of power, my voltage fell to 74 volts. So 5 volts sag at 22C outside.

yes something like that to see the screen of the max-e
just on street. from 0 to vmax would be cool.

didnt remember what KV your motor has...if you have a 9kv your most amps will seen between 0-30kph only.
did you ride with ovs 2? or disabled?

 

[MattyCiii]

What an awesome bike frame!

Ebikes.ca will soon be offering a pretty awesome ebike motor with 20mm thru-axle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljoA8xznXb0&t=0m22s

My dream e-bike would be one of these Q76R frames with an Ebikes.ca motor as the drivetrain. How hard do you think it would be to make a rear swingarm that accommodates a 20mm thru-axle?

 

[Quokka]

Guys, nearly finished the assembly but have hit a snag with the chain. I am running a schlumpf, dicta single speed and a shimano zee derailleur. What speed chain should I use?

 

[Offroader]

What an awesome bike frame!

Ebikes.ca will soon be offering a pretty awesome ebike motor with 20mm thru-axle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljoA8xznXb0&t=0m22s

My dream e-bike would be one of these Q76R frames with an Ebikes.ca motor as the drivetrain. How hard do you think it would be to make a rear swingarm that accommodates a 20mm thru-axle?

What I recommend to try is contact Qulbix and send them the video link. Tell them you want the rear dropouts to accept a 20mm thru axle and dropout width. They should be able to easily fabricate that for you. I believe it isn't that difficult. They are good like that since the designer is also the welder.

I believe a lot of people may want 20mm thru axles in the rear because of mid-drive setups and using regular hubs or geared hubs in the rear like the Rohloff.

 

[Merlin]

...or 2WD

 

[Offroader]

Guys, nearly finished the assembly but have hit a snag with the chain. I am running a schlumpf, dicta single speed and a shimano zee derailleur. What speed chain should I use?

What size rear shock are you running? On my 3.5" I had to buy a new chain because it was not long enough after reducing the size of it on my raptor 165.

If you use the lower shock holes on the swing arm, the travel is even longer.

Any reason you mount the rear brake line on the outside? I notice Qulbix does this also. Just seemed to make more sense to mount it under the bottom bracket and out of the way. But maybe there is a reason I shouldn't do this. I didn't like running it on the outside like you have it.

 

[Quokka]

I have used a 9 1/2" fox van Rc as my rear shock. I am not having any issues with chain length or suspension travel. The bike will be a street bike. I want to be able to do a 60km round trip at 40-50 km an hour. I know this will do it with ease. I agree with you offroader about how the brake lines, I have moved mine as well. They snag your feet if you run it how Qulbix does. I think I may have found the source of my drive train issue. I used a shimano ice tech rear rotor that have a recess Machined into it so it can mount over a normal bike hub. I have had to use a 2 mm spacer in this recess so it can tighten down properly over the Cro. End result is that everything has mover 2 mm towards the derailleur side. This has resulted in the derailleur not quite being in adjustment rage of the two adjuster bolts on the zee. I replaced one of the bolts with a longer bolt and this seemed to work for a few minutes... But the bolt bent and everything went clunk against the hub. I will replace the bolt with the standard length one and just put a 2mm spacer under the the zee before I bolt it too the frame. Shimano alfine chain tensioners have a spacer that should work great

 

[Offroader]

Yes, I also put an ice tech rotor in the rear when I first built my raptor 165. It can not lay flat because of the recess in the black part, even if you don't use a spacer it will still be thicker. I switched over to a regular shimano rt66 rotor because it is perfectly flat and doesn't have this recess.

The icetech is a better rotor and doesn't warp as easy, but with using regen, you hardly use the rear brakes all that much so heat is a non issue.

I also tried using a longer bolt on the derailleur and it bent with time. I just drilled mine and use a tie wrap for tension. Two of them so I have one as a back up. If one fails my chain will be slightly off and then I know to add another backup.

Qulbix designed the Q76R to work better with a 9.5" shock when compared to the raptor 165, you get even more travel with the lower swing arm shock holes.

I use a 10.5" shock and get a lot of travel. The chain just worked to cover all the travel and still stay tight when the shock isn't compressed.

 

[Rix]

Sub'd

 

[bionicdan]

Love the battery work and build. Does anyone know if they think a revolt motor (short versions maybe RV-120 134mm/dia 68mm width) would fit in the lower part of the frame near the pivot.

Id like to run that with a left side chain drive to a freewheeling crankset with no ratchet pawls for a dual reduction.

I understand minor changes to the frame would be needed and maybe a fan installed, but think it would look so tidy and ride well?

 

[robos]

Hi guys!

I'd like to share of my build

 

[Rix]

Nice Robos, what do you got powering your 76R?

 

[Quokka]

Nice bike!

 

[robos]

Nice Robos, what do you got powering your 76R?

It's Greentime controler 48-84V 1500W 45A, battery Li-ion 20s8p and MXUS 5T motor