Qulbix Raptor 140

[Offroader]

the bottom bracket will move .36 inches upwards and .63 inches backwards

Yep, maybe not so worrying finally.

I'm going to have to research it some more and maybe contact Qulbix. Maybe if I can somehow find a downhill frame designer and also get an unbiased opinion. I am honestly curious and I am always trying to learn about geometry and suspension physics.

Since I am not an engineer in bicycle frame design so I can't figure it out on my own. It seems bicycle URT designs have small bottom bracket travel also, even in the quote above about the trek bike someone measured at .75" bottom bracket travel, yet people seem not to like it.

What exactly does .36" upwards and .63 backwards mean exactly, because most travel is measured in total arc travel.

I'll report back after I find out more information.

 

[Offroader]

I wanted to comment on this. Unlike my old Bomber, my Fighter is also a URT design as the bottom bracket is righ below and just slightly forward of the pivot point, when the shock is fully extended. I have about 1000 miles on it now and I can't tell much difference between it and linkageless single pivot suspension where the BB is on the frame. I haven't measured it yet but my Fighters travel has to be atleast 225-250mm usable range of motion. It works great on the rocky shit I ride. I imagine that all URT's aren't equal. There is probably some formula for optimum bb placement in relation to the swingarm pivot point and how the BB swings around the pivot point when the suspension is being compressed and extended.

Doesn't the fighter have a more light weight rear and motor?

It seems that having the bottom bracket on the swing arm adds to the unsprung weight on the rear by like 3% to 10% (for example), and this also depends on where in the travel the bike is in. It without a doubt will add some weight to the rear but the question is by how much and how much of a difference will that make.

 

[Rix]

the bottom bracket will move .36 inches upwards and .63 inches backwards

Yep, maybe not so worrying finally.

Since I am not an engineer in bicycle frame design so I can't figure it out on my own. It seems bicycle URT designs have small bottom bracket travel also, even in the quote above about the trek bike someone measured at .75" bottom bracket travel, yet people seem not to like it.

What exactly does .36" upwards and .63 backwards mean exactly, because most travel is measured in total arc travel.

I'll report back after I find out more information.

the .36" upwards and the .63 backwards is the range of motion the bottom bracket swings around the pivot point from its static positions as the rear suspension moves through out the travel range.

Doesn't the fighter have a more light weight rear and motor?

Yah the Fighter uses the H4080 and the Bomber uses the 5403. The H4080 is about 7-8 pounds lighter than the 5403. I ran the 5403 breifly on the Fighter, the suspension worked just fine with it, it just handled slower because the increased mass. I am telling you the URT design is a good design, but its probably dependent on the BB to swingarm pivot placement.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

every bike design is a compromise.. this or that.. not both or everything..
URT compromises suspension performance in favor of no chain growth and simplicity of design..
when you stand on a URT design you add the riders weight as unsprung instead of sprung weight, you will feel the difference between suspension action standing vs sitting when the swingarm is unweighted.. what is the purpose of suspension if not to isolate the rider from rough terrain and to maintain traction??? it would be like the equivalent of standing on the swingarm of your dirtbike.. you will feel every bump jump, drop, etc.. to minimize this feeling the URT sales person would say stay seated for max suspension action.. thats not happening over rough technical terrain! There are ZERO modern downhill / freeride bikes that use URT suspension.. if it was a great suspension design its use would be be current and common.. URT suspension is ok.. but it is definitely not one of the better suspension designs.. when you are pedaling the bike suspension design matters and is much more noticeable than when under motor power where efficiency is less important.. anyone that thinks URT suspension is great please go ride some pedal bikes with URT then report back..

its not the amount of movement at the bb that matters.. its the riders weight influence on that movement and the fact the rider is unsuspended when standing so terrain shocks will be transferred to the rider..

whereas with the single pivot such as Raptor, the rider will always be suspended weight but the "compromise" in this case is that you will need to run a rear derailleur / idler to manage chain growth under suspension movement..

the bottom bracket will move .36 inches upwards and .63 inches backwards

Yep, maybe not so worrying finally.

I'm going to have to research it some more and maybe contact Qulbix. Maybe if I can somehow find a downhill frame designer and also get an unbiased opinion. I am honestly curious and I am always trying to learn about geometry and suspension physics.

Since I am not an engineer in bicycle frame design so I can't figure it out on my own. It seems bicycle URT designs have small bottom bracket travel also, even in the quote above about the trek bike someone measured at .75" bottom bracket travel, yet people seem not to like it.

What exactly does .36" upwards and .63 backwards mean exactly, because most travel is measured in total arc travel.

I'll report back after I find out more information.

 

[Rix]

every bike design is a compromise.. this or that.. not both or everything..
URT compromises suspension performance in favor of no chain growth and simplicity of design..
when you stand on a URT design you add the riders weight as unsprung instead of sprung weight, you will feel the difference between suspension action standing vs sitting when the swingarm is unweighted.. what is the purpose of suspension if not to isolate the rider from rough terrain and to maintain traction??? it would be like the equivalent of standing on the swingarm of your dirtbike.. you will feel every bump jump, drop, etc.. to minimize this feeling the URT sales person would say stay seated for max suspension action.. thats not happening over rough technical terrain! There are ZERO modern downhill / freeride bikes that use URT suspension.. if it was a great suspension design its use would be be current and common.. URT suspension is ok.. but it is definitely not one of the better suspension designs.. when you are pedaling the bike suspension design matters and is much more noticeable than when under motor power where efficiency is less important.. anyone that thinks URT suspension is great please go ride some pedal bikes with URT then report back..

I'll report back after I find out more information.

[/quote]

I really get what you are saying, and you are correct, there are zero modern MTBs whether DH or XC that are using a URT on the respective platform. That said, I have ridden a few URTs in the past and am currently riding a URT pedal bike with 5KW going into a 4080, I am telling you this design works. Look at my vids below, you can see the suspension working just fine in the rocks and landings. It handles fine. I think the folks giving URT a bad rap are basing the designe on the orginal Y Bikes that came out back in the mid 90s which had the BB positioned several inches away from the pivot point. That swing arc would be huge and actually move the rider around through the pivot. But if the BB is close to the pivot, that swing is really minamized alot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItGLqH7Jq3k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuSiBsL0nvU

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

ok so they have "minimized" the poor design traits of URT..
well why not get ride of them all together???
i am not saying URT does not work..
but i am saying there are numerous other designs that work much better!
so why compromise there??? in stealth, etc case it is for simplicity not because of superior design..
can you really not feel differences in suspension action between bomber and fighter??
because i would find that very very hard to believe..
(place a shock meter at the pedals and see what happens

I really get what you are saying, and you are correct, there are zero modern MTBs whether DH or XC that are using a URT on the respective platform. That said, I have ridden a few URTs in the past and am currently riding a URT pedal bike with 5KW going into a 4080, I am telling you this design works. Look at my vids below, you can see the suspension working just fine in the rocks and landings. It handles fine. I think the folks giving URT a bad rap are basing the design on the original Y Bikes that came out back in the mid 90s which had the BB positioned several inches away from the pivot point. That swing arc would be huge and actually move the rider around through the pivot. But if the BB is close to the pivot, that swing is really minimized a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItGLqH7Jq3k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuSiBsL0nvU

 

[Offroader]

efMX trials bike said it best and his reasoning is how I am thinking also.

URT design is just inferior, and even when you try and reduce the bottom bracket movement by making it close to the pivot, you are just trying to minimize an inferior design and it will still have an effect.

I see Rix point about it not being that big of a deal, and URT design will work, but it will not work as well and this is why most people are very negative about the URT design.

For me I want the best performance possible and the last place I want to add more weight is to the rear of an ebike, which already is way too heavy in the rear.

Someone asked about the vector and I gave my thoughts and I personally wouldn't use the frame. It would bother me so much to know that the suspension dynamics change just by me sitting vs standing on the pedals. Like EfMX has also said, when standing on the pedals you are basically connected directly to the ground and not through the suspension so terrain shocks and bumps may be transferred directly to you. One thing I love about the raptor is the very smooth ride the suspension offers, small bump compliance is just amazing.

It would also bother me to know that I have an inferior suspension design. I am very fussy about having the best performing bike possible. I don't like that the stealth or the vector compromised on suspension performance for simplicity.

But you need to decide on your budget and what you want and what you can compromise with. I just like to point out that when you add in all the expensive components you will have to buy for the bike, you might as well get the proper frame and not choose your frame based on saving some money. The difference in cost is small when you consider that a fork can run you $600 or more dollars, controller $800, batteries $1000, Motor $600. Wheel builds alone can be $300 or more dollars per wheel.

On my raptor with the Max-E, I have probably spent around $7,000 dollars, so the last thing I am going to do is get an inferior suspension design in a frame to save me a few dollars. I also feel that if they are compromising for simplicity in a frame, where else are they compromising and are they cutting costs elsewhere to sell the frames so inexpensively. This is why you really need to do your research.

The last thing I would want and you should want is to spend $5,000-$7,000 on a build and then always wonder if that URT suspension design is hurting handling and think that the bike isn't as good as it would be with a proper suspension design.

These are my thoughts and I am just trying to help you decide and think, this is how you make progress and learn. I don't mean to offend anyone here or anyone who has purchased another frame or owns a URT frame design.

 

[windtrader]

Am I missing something? All this yacking about where the BB is mounted. What about that that big lead weight of a motor sitting inside the rear hub? Do you think that has some negative effects on balance and damping? Seems like the elephant in the room syndrome.

Why is there no serious discussion on getting the motor into the mid frame?

 

[Rix]

Offroad, I totally get what you and EFmx trials are saying, and as I said in my intial comment, "I can't tell much difference" between URT and when the BB is seperate from swing arm. I could have elaborated on this a little better though. So I will here. The only time I can feel the diffence is on big hits where I bottom out. I do feel it when this happens and it feels like I run out of suspension abruplty. I can feel more at the pedals and there is a little feedback from compression. What I think is going on is when the BB swings past the center point directly below the pivot and starts traveling upwards as the suspension compresses to bottom. Its not bad per se, but I feel it in the pedals more I did on my Bomber. But thats it, everywhere else, not an issue. And being that I only bottom out a couple of times per ride, I can live with it. The other thing I wanted to clarify is I know this design isn't superior to other designs that seperate the BB from the swing arm. But I can tell you that the Fighters rear URT suspension does work much better than the original "Y"bikes that employed the same design. For whats its worth.

 

[Rix]

Am I missing something? All this yacking about where the BB is mounted. What about that that big lead weight of a motor sitting inside the rear hub? Do you think that has some negative effects on balance and damping? Seems like the elephant in the room syndrome.

Why is there no serious discussion on getting the motor into the mid frame?

Valid point Windtrader. We all know that mid drive is going to handle better than unsuspended mass in the wheel, regardless of where the BB is, but its hard to beat the simplicity quietness of the direct drive hub motor.

 

[litespeed]

The same thing could be said for a mid drive vs a hub motor and just like those debates this is exhausting. Often "better" is just a matter of opinion. One persons "better" chocolate cookie recipe might only be better to some, some might like another one. See where this is going?

Like what you like and let others like what they like. We get so passionate about what we like we force our thought, values and ideas on others. Want a cliché? More than one way to skin a cat! Another? Live and let live!

2 cents and all right there!

Tom

 

[BCTECH]

I have a similar situation as you herbalizer404, first build and was choosing a frame. I have been doing research for many months and finally decided on Raptor. phasor and raptor that i was having hard time to decide. vector was far off.
Comments are going back and forth, left and right. To the end i just asked myself, why not make it simple and get a proven frame especially it is my first build. I do not want any problem on the frame while i know i will need to spend a lot of time on other component. I never heard raptor owner NOT like their frames. Vector i am not sure, not much review there yet. the pivot movement makes me stop consider the vector. They are selling less then half of the price of others main stream frames, makes me wonder. Price usually reflex quality in my mind.
good lucky on choosing your frame

 

[Rix]

The same thing could be said for a mid drive vs a hub motor and just like those debates this is exhausting. Often "better" is just a matter of opinion. One persons "better" chocolate cookie recipe might only be better to some, some might like another one. See where this is going?

Like what you like and let others like what they like. We get so passionate about what we like we force our thought, values and ideas on others. Want a cliché? More than one way to skin a cat! Another? Live and let live!

2 cents and all right there!

Tom

2 cents Tom, more like 3 or even 4 cents man :lol: . Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[herbalizer404]

ok guys, to close the debate, I'll finally take this frame:

lol

For real and finally, I think that I will try the vector anyway, but to be constructive I'll let you know my detailed feedback and if I was wrong to buy this one.

 

[Rix]

SWEET! Cant wait to see that build :lol:

 

[QuestionMan]

The same thing could be said for a mid drive vs a hub motor and just like those debates this is exhausting. Often "better" is just a matter of opinion. One persons "better" chocolate cookie recipe might only be better to some, some might like another one. See where this is going?

Like what you like and let others like what they like. We get so passionate about what we like we force our thought, values and ideas on others. Want a cliché? More than one way to skin a cat! Another? Live and let live!

2 cents and all right there!

Tom

I take it that you are recommending not to discuss the technical aspects of the frames because it may hurt some ones feelings. Now that is being ridiculous.

The facts were laid out and people can make up their own minds. We are not discussing subjecting things like color or looks, we are discussing physics here with stuff that can be measured.

Honestly, you have to be kidding me basically trying to stop progress for fear of hurting peoples feelings.

With the facts laid out as they are, I certainly won't be standing on my swingarm.

 

[Rix]

The same thing could be said for a mid drive vs a hub motor and just like those debates this is exhausting. Often "better" is just a matter of opinion. One persons "better" chocolate cookie recipe might only be better to some, some might like another one. See where this is going?

Like what you like and let others like what they like. We get so passionate about what we like we force our thought, values and ideas on others. Want a cliché? More than one way to skin a cat! Another? Live and let live!

2 cents and all right there!

Tom

I take it that you are recommending not to discuss the technical aspects of the frames because it may hurt some ones feelings. Now that is being ridiculous.

The facts were laid out and people can make up their own minds. We are not discussing subjecting things like color or looks, we are discussing physics here with stuff that can be measured.

Honestly, you have to be kidding me basically trying to stop progress for fear of hurting peoples feelings.

With the facts laid out as they are, I certainly won't be standing on my swingarm.

Qman, I don't think Lightspeeds comments is so much restricting the issue of discussing the technical aspects and advantages of the different designs between hub drive and mid drive/mid drive with hub/mid drive with RC motor/mid drive with Etek motors, and it literally goes on and on, as it has been discussed to death on other ES threads. Kind of like kicking the dead horse to debate the issue again here. Lightspeed, if I got i wrong, please speak up.

 

[litespeed]

On the contrary, I'm saying quit trying to sway ones feeling toward something. If fine to like this chocolate cookie more than the other and to also stand on top of the highest building and scream it at the top of your lungs.......I LIKE THIS COOKIE!

What isn't right is saying that the other cookie sucks and your a fool for liking it! What were you thinking and why would you want that one. You can plainly see how much better this one is. That is an old recipe that has been tried before. That is so yesterday!!! Why would you add top quality ingredients to an old recipe like that? WHAT A WASTE!!! I couldn't knowing enjoy this cookie when I thought there was a better cookie out there. This cookie recipe is just inferior to all others!!!

Now do you see what I was trying to convey? I personally love the options out there, all of them. Who wants to go to a bakery that only serves one cookie? I'll be damed if I would tell someone that they would be a fool to try an "old fashioned oatmeal cookie" when this much better new designed peanut butter one is available.

Show me all the cookies and let me decide!

Tom

 

[litespeed]

Qman, I don't think Lightspeeds comments is so much restricting the issue of discussing the technical aspects and advantages of the different designs between hub drive and mid drive/mid drive with hub/mid drive with RC motor/mid drive with Etek motors, and it literally goes on and on, as it has been discussed to death on other ES threads. Kind of like kicking the dead horse to debate the issue again here. Lightspeed, if I got i wrong, please speak up.

That is correct Rix. We want any and all designs here! We want mid drive, hub drive and one day hyper drive. All bikes are welcome here, all ideas are welcome here, all designs flawed or not. We discuss and improve not ridicule and hate.

All good now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Tom

 

[QuestionMan]

I think with all the frame options coming available Qulbix should consider a few options here.

1) lowering the price of its current frames.
2) making a 2nd frame, maybe a more simpler design like the vector and stealth fighter and reduce the price.
3) pricing in USD, although USD and Euro is quickly coming to parity. Come on, charging globally with Euro, you got to be kidding.
Charging in Euro basically screws the USA market at the same time not allowing Europeans to feel they are getting a discount that they normally get when purchasing in USD and most other frames are priced in USD.
4) Putting a unique frame out, like a carbon fiber raptor 140, with an aluminum swingarm! Oh would I pay $2000 for that.
5) cut dealers out like stealth bikes has done and only offer frames direct without dealer pricing.

From what I can determine, people seem to be choosing frames mostly based on price (can't blame them as frames seem to be mostly similar to most buyers). The ebike market isn't like the downhill frame market where people pay a lot of money for certain brand names.

Too many competitors right now coming into market may mean current frame prices are too high. Getting market share may be important in this early stage to get brand loyalty.

I am just throwing some ideas out.

 

[Rodney64]

Questionman, I don't see any problem with Qulbix pricing. I haven't seen any other frame out there that's cheaper and proven. One of the hardest things about completing a self build bike that's plug and play is the battery. This is where the 140 frame comes into its own. A 320/200/140 battery just slips straight in. No need for lipo, no need to worry about balancing, plug and play.

 

[Jonboy]

Rod could you refresh my memory as to exactly which pack you are running?

Thx

 

[Rodney64]

Samsung 29e cells, 21s, 9p. 1800 usable watt hours.

 

[Jonboy]

Ta Rod, Marcn is running a similar pack "i Think" I need a proper plug n play, all the lipo taps I'm dealing with is getting a bit annoying!

Nice vid here, just to help me understand what the fk all these batts are, may be of use to someone else:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkuJzOV9VFs



It's a steep learning curve, But I've been out all day on mine.. absolutely covered in mud & freeezing. But EPIC day ! My lads oset 20r performed fab But needs a battery upgrade for sure!

 

[Jonboy]

ok guys, to close the debate, I'll finally take this frame:

lol

For real and finally, I think that I will try the vector anyway, but to be constructive I'll let you know my detailed feedback and if I was wrong to buy this one.

I raced one of those in about 96 the urt was shite. It was the klien attitude

.giant the following year thankfully.