Rear Hub Motor: Full suspension or hardtail?

[wdwrkr51]

What do you think is best for this application? I'm doing my second e-bike build up, and am definitely going rear hub this time. Give me your suggestions/opinions/advice as to full suspension or hardtail frame, and why - maybe talk about the advantages and disadvantages of each, in your experience.

Thanks,


wdwrkr51

 

[montyp]

I have hardtail and this winter as been a little tough with all the potholes in Minneapolis. You will most likely end up with more flat tires in an area with potholes

Though, it easier to mess around with bags and brakes on a hardtail.

What are you using the bike for?

 

[chroot]

@wdwrkr51 - depends where your located and what battery setup - I mean what is your goal set speed on your new ebike building.

For example, My ebike is a hardtail with 9C 9x7 and run on 20s2p and the Lyen 12fets extreme modder controller gives me over 3500-5k watts capable run 40+ mph. My hardtail kept bouncing the rear LOT at high speed.

I wished, I should have gone get full suspension instead if your going high speed. It would better treat ebike like an motorcycle that has full suspension that would soak bad road at ease. I almost threw myself out of the ebike when I hit bad pothole at 30 mph. No fun!

good luck with your new ebike building.

 

[billsy]

Welcome to the forum wdwrkr51. I have just gone from a hard tail FWD to full sus RWD and I have to say the difference is enormous. I get the ebike grin all over again. I can now go off road for a bit of fun which was a definite no no with the hard tail.
 
Clearly the beauty of a hard tail is the ease of battery mounting, however as you are going down the rear hub route I would recommend that you don't have the weight of the battery at the rear as well. IMO you will need the battery further forward on the bike to balance it out, in which case you may as well go full sus. Oh and get a DH bike, do it properly :lol:
 
Cheers

 

[Drunkskunk]

Whats your budget?

A cheap full suspension is worse than a cheap hardtail. You can build a damn good hardtail with balloon tires and a suspension seat post like a thud buster for less.

Its hard to recomend a full suspension unless we know how you're going to be using it and what your budget is.

 

[torker]

+1 on a good bike
I am also resisting the urge to build a cheaper full. suss. I want one bad but will wait till I can get something decent. I have 2.3 in. tires on my hardtail and it is ok on the street at 20 mph. but I wouldn't want to go much faster or ride offroad much with it.

Go full suss. if you can afford a decent one.

 

[Ykick]

A cheap full suspension is worse than a cheap hardtail.

I respectfully disagree with that. I've put many miles on both cheap types and even with little to no dampening, spring action does help absorb rough road and serious potholes. I've got Big Apples on my non-suspension - but take enough hard shots to an unsprung frame and it will eventually do some damage. Gotta remember these eBikes are much heavier than a stock bicycle.

My Walmart Mongoose FS springs enough to survive the really harsh daily stuff but the lack of dampening can give some pogo here and there. Not enough to lose control but yeah, it can pogo.

Now, for really serious FS - I gotta hold of this:

AWESOME!!! Literally floats over the roughest stuff...

 

[dogman dan]

Eh, Drunkskunk is right, and so is Ykick. It can be a POV thing which you prefer. Once your POV includes a crushed disk, ANY suspension is your freind.

But if your roads are not super bad, (mine are) then hardtails and even no suspension can have it's virtues. Just somehow, a better connected to the road feeling, while cheap FS has a mushy feel. In fact, the problem is not so much the suspension, or even the cheap steel swingarms. Instead, I see the issue with cheap FS bikes being the frames themselves. While looking beefy, they actually flex like a damp noodle, and flex even worse when you load up the rear rack because you can't put a battery in a frame triangle when the frame has no triangle.

So in the end, the really cheap FS does suck. And it's still worth riding one if you have that crushed disk in your back. :lol: Don't suggest balloon tires, because with that disk, you want that too. Of the cheapie FS bikes, the mongoose blackcomb is the best. Nice strong steel rear dropouts, and if you upgrade the rear shock, you should get a decent ride out of it. The frame is still cheap and flexy, but less so than others. Not the best bike for 40 mph, but decent enough for 30 mph for sure.

Enter the world of good FS bikes and it's like night and day. Pothole? what pothole? Oh! was that a curb? And no noodly frame either. Lots of problems to solve to get good torque plates made, and mount battery boxes, but worth it if you have the experience and are ready for some light fabrication. Lots of money to do it right, while a relatively cheap hardtail can be a breeze to build if it has a steel frame. The FS is worth it for trail riding. Do put the battery up front either way.

 

[Jamzz]

Now, for really serious FS - I gotta hold of this:

AWESOME!!! Literally floats over the roughest stuff...[/quote]

I apologize for getting a little off topic...

Which model Super V is that Ykick? A friend was kind enough do donate one to me. But, it has a blown "head shock". Am I correct to assume you upgraded the fork and rear shock?

Nifty solution for battery mounting.

cheers

 

[Ykick]

Thank you for the diplomatic reality check Dogman - riding out west or in most suburbs - much different animal compared to what I primarily deal with in NYC. It's brutal here - they frequently dig up roads and most surfaces are already terribly beat-up. The volume of traffic is also mind-boggling. Riding anything that doesn't "give" will ultimately meet it's match.

But when in CA, I ride non-suspension beach bikes with hardly a rattle so it's definitely not an either/or situation. More of a YMMV depending on your situation.

Hey Jamzz, it's a SuperV900 - I put photos in the before/after thread today. Hit me PM or we'll start a build thread on these?

 

[wdwrkr51]

Thanks, guys. I got several relevant questions aimed in my direction, and rightfully so. I will try to give some answers here:

First, I am not interested in flying down the road at motorbike speeds on a bicycle with brakes/tires/wheels/etc. all being overstressed beyond their designed intention. I'd feel safer on a designed-for-the-purpose true motorbike/motorcycle. I'm 59 years old and no longer burdened with testosterone poisoning! My first e-bike featured a 90's era steel diamond frame with rigid front fork. Any suspension was left up to the continental town-and-country 2.0+ tires. It was too heavy (with lead-acid batteries), too fast/not fast enough (think about that) and the brakes were too ineffective. It was reliable to a fault with a direct drive front hub motor, and I sold it to a younger friend who had no driver's license. Opened up his world!

I've built up a new aluminum-frame MTB with front suspension, suspension seat post, disc brakes, etc. It rides well - much stiffer and more stable than the older bike. I'm about ready to start the purchase of motor and batteries, but I wanted to pause and consider if this was the right bike for the purpose, or if I needed to rethink again. If I switched, I'd probably get an older used frame off E-Bay and move my forks/components over to that frame. Either way, the new machine will be considerably lighter than my first.

I want to ride on local suburban roads and neighborhood streets. I ride for pleasure, not for the work commute. Assistance on the hills is more important than 25+ miles per hour top speed. I can't begin to keep up with local traffic anywhere around here at that speed. I'd have to go much faster if that were my goal. 20+ miles per hour is fast enough on a BICYCLE. Rough shoulders and cracked concrete, plus the occasional pothole, is a concern but not top priority. I will probably go LiPo on the batteries this time, and I agree that moving that weight to the front triangle is a good idea.

My budget is reasonable but not unlimited.

Thanks again, and keep those cards and letters coming in!

Wdwrkr51

 

[wdwrkr51]

Dogman, I hear you talking about that crushed spinal disc. I've had my surgery, too. I do really well, and usually without pain, so rear suspension is not absolutely necessary to me at this time. Again, my "hobby" class purposes make that less of an issue. Hope you are recovering well, with little discomfort.

wdwrkr51

 

[torker]

This is my cruiser. Alum. frame, big tires. Pretty good for 20+mph. I do want a thudbuster but it cost what I paid for the bike This has 9C 6x10 winding runs 20 mph. on 48v. I had lead batteries in the triangle. Just built the box and waiting on Lipo. Should ride a lot better about 20 lbs. lighter.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Where I live is a small town, freezes in winter, so...big pothole problem without the tax infrastructure to maintain roads properly. Its an old town, so some of the roads are narrow, crazy drivers here, so, sometimes I simply have no choice but to bail-out of my chosen path suddenly into a pothole or two, or, even onto a sidewalk which are just as bad as the streets. Fat tires and full-sus are SOOO nice, but...there are trade-offs. (also, I feel at high speeds, FS is a requirement along with front disc brakes, regardless of the compromises or costs required to have FS/FDB)

My DH full-sus (somewhat of a low-rider now, see the link in my sig) has no triangle room for an adeqaute volume of central battery pack (just as many FS bikes-frames are). I am collecting the parts for a hardtail, and recently got a Thudbuster. It was $150 (yikes!) but, it will last, and I can move it to any other bike in the future. The hard-tail with Thudbuster is for the fun weekend rides on the smooth bike paths in the nearby college-town.

If you strongly desire a central battery pack in the triangle, there are a few FS frames with decent triangle-space that you may be able to track down with some patience. A middle option may be to spend the extra on a Thudbuster and possibly put a super-fat moped tire on a 20" rim on the back (almost equals a 26" tire diameter, but that may then require a rear disc brake to get it to work). Super-fat tires at a medium pressure can soak up a LOT of potholes. Best of luck with whatever you decide...

 

[Drunkskunk]

Well if you have the bike already to grab componants from, you could go for something like one of these:
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd....ng+Kikapu+Full+Suspension+Mountain+Bike+Frame

Or track down something like a used trek Fuel. all of which have good open triangle for mounting batteries.

If you're tried 2.0" tires, move up to 2.5". The diffrence is more than you would ever expect. I run them on a couple of bikes, and can't say enough about how they improve the ride, full suspension or none.

 

[chroot]

Hardtail will do just fine at 20-25mph with the balloon tires such Hookworm tires, Try find good quality front suspension fork and you could put seat post with suspension (http://www.canecreek.com/component-seatposts) (I think 3" travel). It would be ultra comfortable at 20-25mph.

 

[dogman dan]

Sounds like a hardtail with rear motor will work for you on that situation.

Here in the SW, we have a similar, opposite issue. On the older steets, heat cracks are huge. Kinda like riding along after a truck spilled 2x4's all over the street at times. With good FS, I never feel a thing. With cheap FS, I feel it less. I've brokent two spokes in 6000 miles with suspension. Still occasionally break a spoke on the hardtails.

 

[VictorNYC]

A cheap full suspension is worse than a cheap hardtail.

I respectfully disagree with that. I've put many miles on both cheap types and even with little to no dampening, spring action does help absorb rough road and serious potholes. I've got Big Apples on my non-suspension - but take enough hard shots to an unsprung frame and it will eventually do some damage. Gotta remember these eBikes are much heavier than a stock bicycle.

My Walmart Mongoose FS springs enough to survive the really harsh daily stuff but the lack of dampening can give some pogo here and there. Not enough to lose control but yeah, it can pogo.

Now, for really serious FS - I gotta hold of this:
Cside.jpg
AWESOME!!! Literally floats over the roughest stuff...

This is precisely the bike I’m building now a Cannondale 1999 Super Raven V 1000 would you mind if I ask you a few questions about the suspension adapters and the limitations of the 46t and derailleur, having a *bit of analysis paralysis

 

[Balmorhea]

Now, for really serious FS - I gotta hold of this:
Cside.jpg
AWESOME!!! Literally floats over the roughest stuff...

This is precisely the bike I’m building now a Cannondale 1999 Super Raven V 1000 would you mind if I ask you a few questions about the suspension adapters and the limitations of the 46t and derailleur, having a *bit of analysis paralysis

The last time Ykick checked in here was almost three years ago.

If you can be more specific, maybe others here can address your questions.

 

[qwerkus]

Depends on speed an usage. Hardtail with 2inch+ tire work great up to 30-35kmph. Past 25mph fullies own the street ... until you need to carry stuff. Then hardtails come pretty handy because it gives you a lot more options to expand transport capabilities of your bike (low trailer with axle mount, heavy duty racks..). I ditch my fully because it couldn't even handle one full grocery trip. What good is an ebike if you can't carry stuff ? Not to mention the awful wobble during that one ride with the dog/kids trailer. Just awful...

 

[VictorNYC]

Now, for really serious FS - I gotta hold of this:
Cside.jpg
AWESOME!!! Literally floats over the roughest stuff...

This is precisely the bike I’m building now a Cannondale 1999 Super Raven V 1000 would you mind if I ask you a few questions about the suspension adapters and the limitations of the 46t and derailleur, having a *bit of analysis paralysis

The last time Ykick checked in here was almost three years ago.

If you can be more specific, maybe others here can address your questions.

Oh wow, hope he is ok?

Two questions only:
Are this the adapters I need to mount a new 26” suspension fork?
Cannondale Reducer Headset Integrated Headshok to 1.5’’-1 1/8’’ Tapered KP205 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQZ3FV6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fab_4HvAFb1DNPCWV
And I’m not really sure how to pick the appropriate BB/Cassette/Crankset combination or if even matters all that much when it comes to e-bikes? I wanna keep it simple and feature proof but I understand higher gears are need it on e-bikes so I’m kinda lost on whether I should try to keep the original Crankset 22/32/44 teeth - Cassette 9 speed, 11-34 teeth layout or just go smaller? And if the 46 teeth maximum chainring size it’s going to be a problem? I’ve done most of my homework but to be honest the drive system still a bit confusing to me

My first build, rear hub work city bike (Grubhub in NYC) so I don’t really need speed or power as much as I need range so going with RH212/Phaserunner/CA3-WP combination, already ordered a EM3ev 48V (13S5P) Jumbo Shark Battery with the XT-60 connections for ebike.ca, 2 Magura MT5 E, 2 Alex 26” ebike dm18 rims, 2 Schwalbe Marathon Plus MTB 26"x2.10" and currently hunting down the adapter for 180mm disks,

This is the bike by the way:

https://imgur.com/gallery/124DRDs


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[Balmorhea]

Oh wow, hope he is ok?

Anybody's guess. I hope he's doing fine and has developed other ways besides E-S to squander his time.

Two questions only:
Are this the adapters I need to mount a new 26” suspension fork?
Cannondale Reducer Headset Integrated Headshok to 1.5’’-1 1/8’’ Tapered KP205 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQZ3FV6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fab_4HvAFb1DNPCWV

Sure, if you're planning to use a fork with tapered steer tube.

Did you say what kind of motor you were planning to use, and I missed it?
[EDIT: Oh I see, a Nine Continent hub motor.]

Most people move faster on an e-bike than on a pedal bike, and use correspondingly higher gears (and fewer different gears). It's healthier for drivetrain durability to use the largest sprockets you can, that give you the ratios you need. Today's fashionable MTB gears with a single 32t ring in front are almost the worst thing possible for a streetgoing e-MTB. But those wide range cassettes can be appropriate if you use a larger chainring.

I think the best thing going right now for an E-MTB is Microshift Advent 8, with a 12-42t 8-speed cassette and clutched derailleur. It's inexpensive, durable, and much more tolerant of wear and imprecision than 10,11,12 speed systems. With a 26" wheel and a 46t ring (if that's as big as you can fit), that gives you a 100" high gear and a 28.5" low gear. At 90 pedal rpm, that's about 27mph in top gear, and about 7.5mph in low gear.

 

[VictorNYC]

Depends on speed an usage. Hardtail with 2inch+ tire work great up to 30-35kmph. Past 25mph fullies own the street ... until you need to carry stuff. Then hardtails come pretty handy because it gives you a lot more options to expand transport capabilities of your bike (low trailer with axle mount, heavy duty racks..). I ditch my fully because it couldn't even handle one full grocery trip. What good is an ebike if you can't carry stuff ? Not to mention the awful wobble during that one ride with the dog/kids trailer. Just awful...

I’d would be using it in NYC doing mostly short delivery trips, nothing heavy as I carry it in a backpack, under 25mph 750W since anything beyond that it’s just basically asking for trouble around here, between dumb cab drivers and idiots walking/jumping into the bike lines for no reason it’s almost impossible sometimes, to be honest I’ve been in 3 accident this past 2 years using cheap ebikes so I learned my lessons


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[VictorNYC]

Oh wow, hope he is ok?

Anybody's guess. I hope he's doing fine and has developed other ways besides E-S to squander his time.

Two questions only:
Are this the adapters I need to mount a new 26” suspension fork?
Cannondale Reducer Headset Integrated Headshok to 1.5’’-1 1/8’’ Tapered KP205 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQZ3FV6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fab_4HvAFb1DNPCWV

Sure, if you're planning to use a fork with tapered steer tube.

Did you say what kind of motor you were planning to use, and I missed it?
[EDIT: Oh I see, a Nine Continent hub motor.]

Most people move faster on an e-bike than on a pedal bike, and use correspondingly higher gears (and fewer different gears). It's healthier for drivetrain durability to use the largest sprockets you can, that give you the ratios you need. Today's fashionable MTB gears with a single 32t ring in front are almost the worst thing possible for a streetgoing e-MTB. But those wide range cassettes can be appropriate if you use a larger chainring.

I think the best thing going right now for an E-MTB is Microshift Advent 8, with a 12-42t 8-speed cassette and clutched derailleur. It's inexpensive, durable, and much more tolerant of wear and imprecision than 10,11,12 speed systems. With a 26" wheel and a 46t ring (if that's as big as you can fit), that gives you a 100" high gear and a 28.5" low gear. At 90 pedal rpm, that's about 27mph in top gear, and about 7.5mph in low gear.

This is the fork I was considering but it sounds like if I pick the straight tube I no longer need the adapters right?

BOLANY 26/27.5/29 inch MTB Bicycle Magnesium Alloy Suspension Fork, Tapered Steerer and Straight Steerer Front Fork (Manual Lockout - Remote Lockout) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XC67VF8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fab_XrNAFbYRN7ZQ0

And this is the motor

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-kits/rh212/rh212-high-voltage-kit.html

I was considering a MAC but this gives me slightly more range and I’m still be able to pedal home if I run out of juice but no regen brakes

And I should probably mention I do like to pedal, it keeps me in shape AND it keeps me warm during the winter month’s


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[Balmorhea]

This is the fork I was considering but it sounds like if I pick the straight tube I no longer need the adapters right?

BOLANY 26/27.5/29 inch MTB Bicycle Magnesium Alloy Suspension Fork, Tapered Steerer and Straight Steerer Front Fork (Manual Lockout - Remote Lockout) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XC67VF8/

No, you’ll need a different adapter. A reducer headset is probably the easiest way:
https://www.ebay.com/p/1700124638

If you have your pick, there’s no real reason to go with the straight steer tube version unless you might want to swap it to another older bike someday.