Regards to controller

[clausng]

Hi All,

Firstly I would like to say hello to everyone in this forum as I am new to the E-Bike scene. (From: Singapore)
I recently bought a QS205 V3 3000W(Speed version) + controller package which I intend to install in on my rear wheels.
Therefore I am here to seek some advise from some of you guys here on which setup and controller to go along with my QS205 v3 hub.
I was given a list of controller to pick from to complete the deal with the china seller.

Below are the desired spec I am looking at:
Desired max speed on level ground: 100KPH
Desired max range at what cruising speed: 80KPH
Preferred bike wheel size: 18 or 20Inch rear driven hub motor
Brake type of motor wheel: Disc
Rider weight: 80Kg
Terrain: Most of the time flat ground or maybe 10 degree slope

As of now I have yet to decide how much voltage I will be using either 72/84/96v

But here are some recommendation from the seller to me.

Kelly Controller:
For 72v:
KEB72601
KEB72801X

For 96V:
KEB96251
KEB96301

Some other available controller are : APT96600

I been reading up a little that Adaptto Max-E will be pretty much do the job, but since my deal was a package deal by QS Motor Agent, I was given a choice to pick whichever controller I want and top up accordingly.
Therefore I need you precious recommendation on which to use to get the desired spec I need.

Lastly, will there be a great improvement to do a Delta Mode Setup using QS205 V3 3000W

If anyone of you ever use Kelly Controller + QS205 V3 3000W setup don't mind can you share your setup for a reference.

Thanks all hope to hear from you soon.

 

[clausng]

UPZ! is this the correct section to ask?? Sry new here.
If this is the wrong section, can anyone kindly tell me which section is the correct one.

 

[amberwolf]

Patience.

(not even 20 hours elapsed from first post to impatient bump post.)

 

[clausng]

Ok noted, I just want to make sure I post the right thing at the right place. Sorry about that

 

[clausng]

Any suggestion anyone? Kinda run out time seller awaiting for my reply dam it.

 

[MadRhino]

Different builders and riders will have different opinions about the best choice of controller for that motor. Also, one can have various criterias like: Price, weight, size, heat... And all this according to where it is to be mountd on the bike.

My choice is an 18 fet 4110, plain square wave Infineon based controller. I use it for its size, weight, and low resistance. Modified to feed high power, only one out of three or four will be reliable. That is the extra price we pay for power in a small format: Having to buy and mod many, and frying a few to have one that is good. Once you have a good one, it will survive pulling 150A battery current, feeding well above 25 Kw phase, and charging 24s RC lipos to 105v... Daily.

Yet I see in your post that you have purchased the motor with a controller already. It is probably safe and reliable, but big and heavy. Do you really want to get into spending time and cash to optimize and build lighter ? If so, there is a lot more to it than f***ing with controllers, this game can triple the time and cash that you will spend on your bike.

 

[clausng]

Thank MadRhino appreciate it a lot. I bought a package deal which was pretty awesome as they sell me at lower price on QS205 v3 3000w but in order for the deal to happen, I would need to purchase kelly controller along with it, Else there will be no discount given on the QS205 v3 hub itself.

Therefore now I would need to make a decision, to either purchase a kelly controller along with hub motor or just get the hub motor itself at the non discounted price.

Two option I am left with:

1. Purchase QS205 v3 3000w + Kelly controller = Discount will be given on Hub Motor
2. Purchase QS205 v3 alone = No Discount given


This there any similiar controller "18 fet 4110, plain square wave Infineon based controller" within the kelly controller. Or should I just a pay a little more and just buy the QS205 v3 hub and move on to purchase a controller out of the kelly's range?

Or maybe is there any matching controller brand that some can recommend?

 

[Sunder]

I don't want to be a negative nelly, but do you know what 100km/h feels like on a motorcycle? It's not like 100km/h in a car.

You haven't mentioned what kind of frame you're going to be putting it into, but if it's not a purpose built motorcycle, this could be the last thing you ever build. EVER.

See this bike below? It's a Honda Cub. It's purpose built motorcycle, and out of the factory, it can do about 80km/h. There's a pretty large fan club for modifying these things to go faster. But the general consensus is that anything over 100km/h, the bike is not structurally sound. That's with decent wheels, thick forks and frame, proper suspension, good brakes designed for that speed etc.

Now, think about your frame. If it looks like a Honda Cub or is better built, then by all means, please go ahead. I'd love to see the result.

If it started off with pedals, then please reconsider. I don't want to hear that Singapore has banned all electric bikes, because some guy built one that went 100km/h and killed himself.

 

[clausng]

Thanks for your feedback... firstly i dont need build something over 100kph.. secondly is the same concept if a person buy a motorbike that could go over 200kph it doesnt means that he or she have to ride it at that speed and start killing everyone. Just like you dont see lambo driver speeding constantly at their peak.

I will share with you on the frame once everything is ready. Right now i just seeking advise on the controller. I dont think is good to side track things here. If I explain the frame, someone gona ask me about the brakes system, by the time i finish explaining the brakes system someobe gona ask me about wheels.. and this will never end.

Just hope to find a suitable controller, thats about it.

 

[Sunder]

Okay, but if that's your attitude, I really hope you have a very, very big budget, or your "100km/h, and 80km range" targets are very, very negotiable.

To give you a good recommendation for a controller, we need to know how many turns in the motor you selected. There appear to be at least three windings that I can see:

72V in a 26" wheel:
390 rpm 60 km/h
650 rpm 68 km/h
830 rpm 85 km/h
https://fasterbikes.eu/en/motors/165-qs-205-50h-v3-extra-typemotors.html

You said you wanted to target 100km/h max, so we need to convert that from 26".

The circumference of a 26" x 50mm tyre is 2.07m
The circumference of a 20" x 50mm tyre is 1.73m

Therefore, the same motor in 20" wheel would go 1.73/2.07 or 84% of the speed

72v in a 20" wheel:
390 rpm = 50km/h
650 rpm = 57km/h
830 rpm = 71km/h

If 72v can get you 71km/h (assuming sufficient current). Then 100v would get you pretty close to 99km/h. So none of the controllers in the table will do it. They only go up to 72v. You need to look at the KEB 96XXX range.

You need approximately 6kw to get a mountain bike up to 100km/h. That's measured at the rubber. Motors tend to be about 80% efficient, so you need a controller that can handle at least 7.5kw. 7500w / 96v = ~78amps.

The KEB 96251 can handle 250a, so it would be plenty of power, no need to go the KEB 96301.

So if you're happy with around 90-95km/h, then the KEB 96251 would be the way to go. If you insist you must go 100km/h, then you may need to look further, or get a different motor with a higher winding speed. Or, if you go a larger wheel size, this will be less of an issue.

Man, I am looking forward to seeing this if you're really serious about this. I just get the feeling that by the time you do the maths, you might find this is out of your budget to do safely. I'd rather think that you'd lower your speed targets, than skimp on quality of safety parts when the time comes.

 

[MadRhino]

...
Two option I am left with:

1. Purchase QS205 v3 3000w + Kelly controller = Discount will be given on Hub Motor
2. Purchase QS205 v3 alone = No Discount given


This there any similiar controller "18 fet 4110, plain square wave Infineon based controller" within the kelly controller. Or should I just a pay a little more and just buy the QS205 v3 hub and move on to purchase a controller out of the kelly's range?

Or maybe is there any matching controller brand that some can recommend?

I would take the Kelly that the seller does recommend for your choice of motor and target speed. I would use it as a backup until I have a reliable 18 X 4110 on the bike, then sell or trade the Kelly.

Sunder is right, except for the Honda Cub that I would not ride even if it was given to me.
You will need to spend a lot to build a bike that is a good ride at 100 Kph. A stiff DH racing frame, top of the line suspension and brake components, geometry mods, custom wheels, etc... I have built a street bike that is reliable and handles perfect well above 100 Kph, cost me 10 K $ and a lot of work. A hint: Don't build 26 wheels to speed on the streets, 24 is much better, and smaller even better if you have nice pavement. For me and the rough streets here, 24 X 3.0 is the best by far.

 

[clausng]

Ok thanks rihno, in this case i think i will just buy the USD$399 controller that he recommended while looking for a 18 X 4110 controller.
Was given a USD$90 bucks off the hub motor when purchasing along with a kelly controller FYI...
Unless it is not practical to save a USD$90 in this way then I would just buy the hub itself LOL...

Let me know your take on this. appreciated.

 

[clausng]

Thanks sunder as well.. I will go consider again

 

[MadRhino]

... while looking for a 18 X 4110 controller.

A few 18 X 4110
When I built my last bike, I had fried 3 by the second day. One of them litterally exploded in the living room of a friend. The fouth is still on the bike after 15,000 Km of daily abuse, and I would bet it's gonna double that mileage.

That is why I say: Take the Kelly, so you can ride your bike every day by the time you have a reliable high power 18 X 4110. All my bikes are built with a strict standard, so most parts can be swapped very quickly. Build with diagnosis and servicing in mind, all the time you will save later is well worth the extra time spent building.

 

[clausng]

Okay, but if that's your attitude, I really hope you have a very, very big budget, or your "100km/h, and 80km range" targets are very, very negotiable.

To give you a good recommendation for a controller, we need to know how many turns in the motor you selected. There appear to be at least three windings that I can see:

72V in a 26" wheel:
390 rpm 60 km/h
650 rpm 68 km/h
830 rpm 85 km/h
https://fasterbikes.eu/en/motors/165-qs-205-50h-v3-extra-typemotors.html

You said you wanted to target 100km/h max, so we need to convert that from 26".

The circumference of a 26" x 50mm tyre is 2.07m
The circumference of a 20" x 50mm tyre is 1.73m

Therefore, the same motor in 20" wheel would go 1.73/2.07 or 84% of the speed

72v in a 20" wheel:
390 rpm = 50km/h
650 rpm = 57km/h
830 rpm = 71km/h

If 72v can get you 71km/h (assuming sufficient current). Then 100v would get you pretty close to 99km/h. So none of the controllers in the table will do it. They only go up to 72v. You need to look at the KEB 96XXX range.

You need approximately 6kw to get a mountain bike up to 100km/h. That's measured at the rubber. Motors tend to be about 80% efficient, so you need a controller that can handle at least 7.5kw. 7500w / 96v = ~78amps.

The KEB 96251 can handle 250a, so it would be plenty of power, no need to go the KEB 96301.

So if you're happy with around 90-95km/h, then the KEB 96251 would be the way to go. If you insist you must go 100km/h, then you may need to look further, or get a different motor with a higher winding speed. Or, if you go a larger wheel size, this will be less of an issue.

Man, I am looking forward to seeing this if you're really serious about this. I just get the feeling that by the time you do the maths, you might find this is out of your budget to do safely. I'd rather think that you'd lower your speed targets, than skimp on quality of safety parts when the time comes.

Hi Sunder, based on your calculation "need a controller that can handle at least 7.5kw. 7500w / 96v = ~78amps." am I right to say that any controller that can produce 100amps above will do the job regardless of brands?
Or maybe someone enlighten me thanks.

 

[Sunder]

Had a few PMs from Clausng. Long and the short of it, he's getting the motor wound in a Delta layout, which will make it 830rpm @ 72v on a 20 x 2" wheel. Thats just shy of 80km/h, but might keept the cost of the controller and battery down.

Have asked him to post pictures/videos when he's done.