Replaced hall sensors. Two of them still not working.

[SkyCaptain]

Hi all.
Any ideas please please please.

(My question is near the bottom,,, so you can speed up and shoot down there if time is scarce)

Motor, Clyte 5304
Had been working perfectly.
Stopped working.
Deduced it was the motor,( by trying other motors on the same controller)
Then confirmed two hall sensors were dead.(made up a plug, with 6.5 volts, and used my multimeter doing it the way it is described on here,,,,thanks guys)
But actually, while checking them, it was not that clear to me. Should they drop down to Zero volts as I slowly turn the wheel? or just drop a bit?
Anyway, two of them had not fluctuation at all.

Bought three new ones for $30 AUD lol,
replaced them, in the same orientation, and I believe I got all the wires the correct way around.
Put motor back togother, and it seems that two of them are dead again,or still not working

So, to be clear, I worked out that two halls were dead so I replaced all three with new ones.
Now, after replacing, it still seems like two are dead again.


I have checked that each wire going to the hall has continuity, between the where the hall plug goes into my speed controller, all the way up to 3cm away from the halls.
(the final bit of wire goes under the big coil)
But each of the five wires going to the halls does not seem to have a break in it, at least all the way until the last 2 or 3cms worth.


So, any ideas? Seems kindah funny I have two halls down again, like at the start when it first broke ther was also two dead halls.
Does anyone know if I can put new ones in again, and this time around run the wires to the hall sensors over the big motor coil wires? (instead of how it is now in original form, with the wires tucked under the motor coil wires)
Is that a good idea?
The wire on the halls was only about 4mm long, so I cut the new halls down to the same length.
Maybe the heat from soldering the wires on?
I did it pretty quickly and good, but I did stuff around and have to had to have a few goes at on or two of the wires.

Can I test the sensors without re assembling my motor each time?
Like, should I be able to power up the halls with my tester, and then swipe a magnet past the halls?
I did try that, and could even get a response from the working hall.
But when I put it all back together, I could see that at least one of the halls was working.
(just a pain to keep putting the whole motor together each time just to check my hall, which don't seem to be working lol)


Question,,,,,,I guess, the best help would be to know how to test a hall out of the motor.
Do, I just power it up and swipe a magnet past it?
That way, I can test the three I removed, and also the three new ones I just installed.
Should it drop to zero volts when I swipe the magnet?

I did check with the local shop who repairs these motors, and it was going to cost a fair bit of money which I don’t have to get it fixed.

Actually I am that sad and dejected by this whole mess I am seriously considering selling all my clyte motors, because they are the only brand I have failures with.
My GM's which are much older are still going very strong.


Anyway I no complain.
Just sad I can’t seem to repair her.
And have no idea how or what to look for next.
So, I take that back about selling my clyte motors.
Please, someone help, Obi one, are you there?
I don’t want a pickle, I just want to ride my clyte bicicle.


Thanks.

 

[heathyoung]

Check continuity from the end of the wires to the hall sensors.

To test hall sensors, you need a pullup resistor from the positive +5v to the output of the hall sensor. 10K ohms will do. (They are open collector outputs)

Measure your voltage on the output of the sensor, they will go from full battery voltage to close to zero volts when you brush a magnet past them.

Soldering heat is unlikely, they are usually pretty tough (unless they are off-brand chinese junk).

I LOATHE hall sensors, and now run sensorless.

 

[dnmun]

wow, like anyone would understand what an open collector is, or a pull down resistor.


how did you test the hall sensors originally? talking in generalities doesn't help anymore than talking like you are an electrical engineer. just what did you do to test them? be specific.

 

[SkyCaptain]

Thanks Heath for your help and info.
Yep will check the last part of the wire,right to the halls.

I dont understand what a pull-up resistor is.
I am not sure I would even understand if you explained it lol.


Ohh, one other thing, when I cracked the motor open, there was this "wax like" stuff on the magnets and all over the place.
But it is mainly on one half of the motor only. About 1mm thick nearly.
Is this because when it gets warm the wax stuff melts, and then when I stop it all runs to the bottom?
I dont think this is the reason she aint running.
And on the day it broke, I didnt get it even warm

Also, when I replaced the halls, i just pushed the inside part of the motor through and out from the cog side,,, and I left the cover plate on the side which has the wires exiting to the controller.
I left that cover on to save trying to get it past the wires.
And the halls are on the other side, so I can get to the halls very easily.
But is there anything behind that cover on the other side that could be making my 2 new halls not work?

To test the halls in the bike with motor complete, I made up a plug and powered up the red and black hall leads going into my motor with 6.5volts dc.
Then, I put my multimeter on volts reading, and put the black multimeter lead onto the black hall lead, and then the red multimeter lead onto the coloured wire of the hall.

Then I spun the motor slowly, and looked for a change in volts.
One of the halls sort of jumped around a bit, like from 6 volts down to 5volts,,,but the other two halls did not show any change. That is how I decided they were not working.
then I took my motor to stealth bikes, and he did exaclty what I did to test the hall, and even used my powersupply and plug,(just used his multimeter),, and he told me that two of them are dead, and I should replace all three.
So, I bought three halls off him for $30 lol



Thanks again.

PS, Heath, how does sensorless run? Do you have as much torque off the line? and is it still smooth?
I cant afford a controller, but it does sound like a good way around my issues.

 

[dnmun]

that is not a test of the hall sensors. from what i could deduce in your comment, you could not use what you did to determine if the hall sensor worked or not.

if you do not wanna use the controller to test them then go buy lyen's tester. of course it is too late since you already took out the original halls anyway.

 

[dogman dan]

Be sure the wire to the halls is ok, could be shorted in the axle, or messed up at the plug end or something.

Fairly easy to short them soldering them. Dang tiny things. I had Lyens solder some short wires to my last batch of halls, which helps a blind old man a lot.

Lyens tester worth it's weight in gold, but a loose very strong magnet is also very handy if testing a bare hall sensor.

 

[heathyoung]

wow, like anyone would understand what an open collector is, or a pull down resistor.


how did you test the hall sensors originally? talking in generalities doesn't help anymore than talking like you are an electrical engineer. just what did you do to test them? be specific.

Yeah sorry about that. I was an electrical engineer, but discovered that there was more money in computers

Like others have said, just putting a voltage across the halls and checking the output wire will do nothing - the idea of a hall sensor is to short its output to ground - but to do so, there must be a voltage across its output wire (the purpose of the 10K resistor between +ve (red) and hall output (green).

The 10K resistor 'pulls up' the hall sensor output so the hall sensor can short it back down to ground.

A sensorless controller will have less starting torque, but I have found I use a lot less energy on some motors with odd hall sensor configurations (GM - ever tried to use those halls for a speed signal?)

 

[full-throttle]

Hey Sky, where abouts in Melbourne are you? I've got hall testers and other stuff. Maybe can give you a hand.

PM me

 

[SkyCaptain]

Hi Full Throttle.
Yep, just sent you a PM, thanks.

Was funny, because I was just coming here to the PC, with the intentions of asking just that.
To see if anyone might be able to check it out in person.

Thanks, will wait for your reply to my PM.

 

[SkyCaptain]

Hi everyone.

I thought maybe there are still some more things I could look at or test in the meantime while I work out a time to catch up with "full throttle" who has kindly offered to have a look at it for me.

I did the test with the phase wires to make sure they are not shorting. I am sure they are not shorting.

Ohh, one other thing, when I cracked the motor open, there was this "wax like" stuff on the magnets and all over the place.
But it is mainly on one half of the motor only. About 1mm thick nearly.
Is this because when the motor gets warm the wax stuff melts, and then when I stop for the day it all runs to the bottom and dries?
I dont think this is the reason she aint running.
And on the day it broke, I didnt get it even warm
But what is this wax stuff only on one half of the motor?.

Also, when I replaced the halls, I just pushed the inside part of the motor through and out from the cog side,,, and I left the cover plate on the side which has the wires exiting to the controller.
I left that cover on to save trying to get it past the wires.
And the halls are on the other side, so I could get to the halls very easily.
But is there anything behind that cover on the other side that could be making my 2 new halls not work?



Also, I managed to re test the halls. This time using a 5k ohm resistor.I hope the results are still valid to some extent, because I was advised to use a 10k resistor.
It was so exciting, I really enjoyed doing it.

So, testing the new halls that are in the motor now, I got these results. Can anybody advise me what to do next, does only one need replacing? or all three?
I applied approx 8.3volts for testing, the power supply I noticed driffted in voltage a bit durring testing,,,either that or my mutimeter drifts. I did the tests twice all the way through just to be sure to be sure.

Anyway, GREEN hall went from "0" to -"6.3" to "8.3" volts.
Yellow Hall went from "6"to "8"volts (never to Zero volts)
Blue Went from "0" to "6" to "8" volts

So, is it just the Yellow hall I have an issue with?




Also I tested the 3 halls that I removed.
Two of them went from 8 volts to to Zero volts when I swiped a magnet past them. And one of the had No change at all.
And one of them I cant remember which one lol would stay on Zero volts if I held the magnet over it.
I will throw these ones away.

Okay look forward to hearing some thoughts.
Thanks everyone.

 

[Philistine]

If it is any consolation Sky Captain, I have been trying to replace the hall sensors in my 5303 for the past three months (I rarely get enough uninterrupted time to give it a proper go), but I must have had four or five attempts. The clearances on the X5s are tight, and so you wouldn't be able to place the wires over the windings, you need to go under the windings to get clearance against the cover like they are done originally. My problem is everytime I get them in there, I have ended up just being short of clearance with the epoxy I have placed over the halls, and they have then rubbed on the side cover and blowing them. It has driven me to near tears. You shouldn't be paying $30 for 3 halls sensors though, where did you get ripped like that? You should be paying a few dollars for each one. You can get them from places like Little Bird Electronics, or digikey. Little bird are fast and Australian based.

Best of luck mate. Phil.

 

[SkyCaptain]

Hi all.
Thanks for answering that Phil.

Still would be good if somebody could chime in regarding my other questions about what hall to replace?




Anyway, GREEN hall went from "0" to -"6.3" to "8.3" volts.
Yellow Hall went from "6"to "8"volts (never to Zero volts)
Blue Went from "0" to "6" to "8" volts

So, is it just the Yellow hall I have an issue with?


Now, another update, I decided to just change the yellow for fun anyway, but while picking the glue out from around it, i re tested it and it started to work. So, I put motor back together and rode it, but it died after half an hour. So now I will deffinately replace the yellow hall.

Should the hall when tested in the wheel go from zero to 8volts?
Or is it okay if it goes 0 to 6 to 8 volts? It is like every 3 notches of the wheel as a spin it makes a change on the hall.
Does that all sound correct?


Thanks. Would be nice to get this thing up and running soon.

 

[Spicerack]

Is it just a bad solder connection or a break in one of the wires going to the yellow hall? Resolder it and maybe use new lengths of wire for the yellow and see how you go. I guess if you have new halls sitting on the bench chuck one in....if you got some cheaper ones now!