Report from Interbike 2012 Las Vegas

Personally I enjoyed that whole read and thank you for posting it. I think one of the main reasons that this forum is so DIYcentric is because the mass market has lacked for so long. It looks like your company is trying to change that and I commend you. E-bikes should and will be a huge part of our transportation future and it is going to take some quality mass produced bikes to do it. I appreciate your insider view of things.
 
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interesting... hot girls and ebike in the same picture

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I don't think a company outsourcing $10k, or even $100k worth of components can afford the QC that any major company like apple of HP can. I'm sorry, but if I were these companies I'd offer a bulletproof warranty on their battery packs because they're going to fail way more than american consumers are used to and it will tarnish all ebike's reputations if the warranty isn't super quick and efficient.

10% of my lipo packs have failed. Two of my ping BMS's have failed. And these aren't failures a young company on a small budget can really predict. These tend to happen a year into the products lifespan after daily use. Not something you can easily test for. IMHO, they should be building into the price a 50% failure rate on the battery components. I mean, honestly, the big dogs are offering warranties lasting a decade, and there is no reason these ebikes shouldn't last the same. Yet, you can be sure they won't.
 
Yeah it will be interesting to see how the battery packs hold up on all these bikes. They just need to have to make it past the warranty period...on most ebikes that is a year.

I think ebikes are very hard to sell without a ebike store nearby to support them. People will post negative rants etc when stuff fails after a few months. And it is highly unclear if these name brand bikes will hold up after daily use...especially battery packs. I cant even imagine someone buying a turn key ebike off the internet....it sounds like a headache in the making.

And educating all these bike stores on how to fix ebikes could be a pain.

I have a friend who is in charge of ebike repair in blazing saddles, and he says that something is always breaking on these name brand bikes (currie, stromer, a2b)...he says on average a bike wont make 3 rent outs without something needing serviced. He was walking around interbike with me just trying to find a vendor who not only offers reliable bikes but who also can send parts when they need them. It seems a lot of these e-bike companies have a hard time providing parts when stuff breaks.

Robert,

I also enjoyed reading your input.

It really sounds like you guys are doing it right.

I would like to test ride a bike but when i emailed you guys a few months ago it sounded like you didnt have any dealerships in LA or SF yet.
 
Green Machine said:
They just need to have to make it past the warranty period...on most ebikes that is a year.
Actgually, no. they need to have them last well beyond the warranty, and into the period fo the bike's life where other things that are critical begin to wear out, too, to the poionot someone would be considering a new one anyway.

If they don't, then people's perceptions of ebikes are not going to be one of dependability, whihc is what is needed to really make them popular for commuter and grocery-getter replacements, which are the thing that many people would be uisng a car for instead.

If the point is to have them replace cars, get cars off the road, then they msut be perceived as reliable and dependable for much longer than any warranty, just like most cars tend to be, with regular maintenance.

If the point is simply to have ebike companies make money and not lose it on replacing defective parts, then sure, they can be *just* reliable enough to make it past the warranty and then catch fire or have the wheels fall off or whatever, ;) but that doesn't help the long-term sales, either. It might help a young startup company get going, but it might also doom them, if everything lasts till just past the warranty and then poeple begin experiencing failures of whatever type.


Many companies in the PC business used to have really long warranties, 3-5 years, sometimes more, for most parts in most devices, because the parts were so reliable that they could afford to replace a few here and there.

When they shifted parts manufacturing to cheaper places with less QC, and then shifted unit manufacturing to such places as well, many more problems cropped up much sooner (often immediately upon use) and instead of fixing the problems they simply began shortening the warranties, until many items are down to 30 days or 90 days, occasionally a whole year if you're lucky, and some of them don't even cover all the parts in the unit (some parts have no warranty at all!).

It makes devices cheaper to make and support, but it doesn't help the reputation of the manufacturer. As an example, at one time HP was one of the best brands you could get for anything they made, but I wouldn't have recommended them at all by the time I was ending my PC repair career in 2007. Sure, they were doing it to be price-competitive, but it also lost them market share for consumers who needed something reliable, not something cheap and disposable. The same is true of jsut about every manufacturer, at some point in the last decade or so, if not before.

I still have various devices from 20 years ago that still work perfectly, other than havign had to replace primary batteries in a few of them, and reduced capacity in the secondary batteries for laptops, pdas, etc. But I also have stuff made in the last few years that is jsut about garbage in comparison, often given to me by frustrated owners after they replaced it with yet another new disposable unit.

To make ebikes (and any EV) something people would want to replace an ICE vehicle with, they must be *at least* as dependable and reliable as their ICE counterparts, for *at least* as long. Even if the warranty only lasts a year...most of the units should be designed, manufactured, and tested to last without problems for at least several times that length. If they don't last, why would anyone want to pay that kind of money for them--they usually already have a car they can rely on jjust as much or as little as such a capricious device. ;)


If you want to make them as cheap and disposable as possible, it doens't matter. But that isn't going to entice most people to replace their commuters and grocery-getters with them.
 
Great stuff AW. My mom works for HP. Worked actually. Shitty place to work actually.

She was shocked when I told her just how bad HP and compaq's quality has been. Everyone I know with an hp or compaq has problems with their laptops. Mine is a shitty cheap $250 unit I rarely use. And when I do it tends to overheat. Compiling python code in a hot class room? Over heat. blah. totally disposable.


And I've been thinking about the latest ebike I'm building. I want to make it reliable. I want it to last. And I realized, if I do it right, it could last a decade. Hell, it could last long enough to hand it off to my kids. Just replace the batteries every decade, and maybe upgrade the controllers and motors if it's desired.

Meanwhile, in twenty years the most loved ebike companies will still have bikes on the road that will be built in the next five years. For the same reason vespa is loved, people won't flinch at paying twice as much for their products. The ebikes I'm seeing today look great, but seem to fit into the disposable product category. You aren't going to get another battery for these bikes that will fit in the compartment unless the company still finds it economically feasible to make the batteries. Same goes for a lot of the other components on them.

I honestly don't know the right way to do an ebike company. It's hard to be profitable in today's "I DEMAND CHEAP JUNK" consumer market with a quality, built to last product. People don't think a bike will last a decade or at least don't care enough to spend extra for a bike that will. I think stealth is probably doing it right. But they got in the market early enough to nab that coveted "premier" product spot. In ten years there will still be stealths on the road that were made today. They're made well enough, and look easy enough for a DIYer to upgrade the components. Hell, in ten years I might be using a broken down stealth that I rebuilt myself.
 
There's a very interesting RFID card-key you keep in your wallet, and then just swipe your wallet to start the Grace-One bike in the fourth video down from the top of this page, Its at 1:10. If the rear hub is direct-drive, it could even short the hub to make it cog horribly, rather than just not power it. Perhaps not as effective as a good lock (A large thief could still pick up the bike and walk away), but an interesting option.
 
Going to start saving my money for one of those beauties. Looks like 2013 is going to be a good year. 8)
 
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