Sales of electric bicycles lose momentum - LA Times

[sk8norcal]

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/18/business/la-fi-smallbiz-electric-bicycles-20101018

When gas prices spiraled toward $5 a gallon a couple of years ago, electric bicycles were wheeling off showroom floors as fast as their motors could move them. The pace has slowed somewhat since then, despite growing interest among Southern California merchants, cyclists, commuters and manufacturers.

"I'm more than considering one," said Marques Warren, who took an electric bicycle for a test ride at year-old Hollywood Electrics last month and was "thrilled." The only hitch: the $3,100 he needs to buy it.

The bikes' upfront costs are expensive, "but when you look at the numbers long term, it makes sense," said Warren, who recently moved to Los Angeles from Seattle and said he has been spending more than $100 a week on gas commuting to and from his work at a beverage and events company in Hollywood.

"Electric bicycles are an untapped market, especially for commuting," said Stephen Wittels, who in May opened the Pedal or Not electric bicycle shop and guided tour service in Santa Monica.

Wittels is one of at least half a dozen small-business owners who have opened electric bicycle stores in Southern California in the last 12 months.

Although they are true believers in electric bicycles' potential as fun, inexpensive and environmentally conscious transportation, few of these new retailers expected the economic slump to be so stubbornly protracted.

Two weeks ago, Currie Technologies in Chatsworth, one of the country's oldest and largest electric bicycle manufacturers, added its name to the list of new shops. It opened its first Izip retail location in Venice to "prove the viability of this kind of store as a standalone business," Currie President Larry Pizzi said.

These bikes vary in price from $400 to $7,000 and can move at least 12 mph, with further speed depending on the size of their motors, battery packs and the weight of their riders. They are similar to regular bicycles, giving riders the option of pedaling under their own power or with an electric assist.

In California, they are not considered motor vehicles, nor do they require operators to have a driver's license or registration. Riders must be 16 or older and wear helmets.

Whisper quiet, they can usually travel about 20 miles on a single charge, said Ed Benjamin of Fort Myers, Fla., chairman of the Light Electric Vehicle Assn., a nonprofit organization that tracks electric bicycle manufacturing.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Give it a year...fuel prices will spike up again.

 

[MrBoots]

I still can't figure out why decent-quality production ebikes cost so much. My ebike cost me a total a third of the price of the bike quoted in that LA Times article. Mind you, I've upgraded every single component on an already-decent hybrid bike platform. On top of that, the performance of my ebike would just blow away these bikes and its gone strong for a year. I understand the cost of convenience, good engineering, integrated design and reliability but these manufacturers really need to bring the prices of these bikes under $1500.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

The Republicans are gaining control again. Gas prices will rise.

 

[Lessss]

I still can't figure out why decent-quality production ebikes cost so much.

Storefront rent
wages
Profit margin
Piss poor economy
income purchasing power falling
wages falling

 

[vanilla ice]

I always thought it was the low production numbers that kept the prices high.. WIth the cheaper pedal bikes or even motor scooters they build much more of them at a time right?

 

[Anonymous]

why doesn't someone put together the cheapest way to get to 10kw? hub or nonhub?

 

[Anonymous]

why doesn't someone put together the cheapest way to get to 10kw? hub or nonhub? if done for under $1,000 you can forget about these crap 200w bikes

 

[jmygann]

why doesn't someone put together the cheapest way to get to 10kw? hub or nonhub?

I would go for a legal 1Kw bicycle first

10 Kw is a motorcycle

the existing hub motors may have already arrived at the best price

 

[Anonymous]

nah..50kw's a motorcycle, 10kw's definitely still bicycle territory in my books :wink:
When you say 1kw already at best price, do you mean the 9c / bmc / x5 series? or are you also referring to the cheap ebay 1000w knockoffs?

why doesn't someone put together the cheapest way to get to 10kw? hub or nonhub?

I would go for a legal 1Kw bicycle first

10 Kw is a motorcycle

the existing hub motors may have already arrived at the best price

 

[neptronix]

I think people found out that those companies in LA are selling junk!!!
Seriously.. i had two eBikes from a company in LA that cost $1800 at the store.. bought them for $500 each.. had to fix a lot of stuff as it was basically generic Chinese components on a walmart bike.

Gas prices, better energy density, and faster speeds will sell pre-built eBikes.

The good news is that awareness is growing, and ES keeps getting new members..

 

[jmygann]

When you say 1kw already at best price, do you mean the 9c / bmc / x5 series? or are you also referring to the cheap ebay 1000w knockoffs?

the 9c / bmc / x5 series

Not sure we will see any better at that price

 

[John in CR]

I still can't figure out why decent-quality production ebikes cost so much.

VCRs cost over $1k when they first came out. Early adopters always pay a premium. I agree with you though that the prices are hideous, but look at the prices of quality bike...just as obscene. That will all change, and the market leaders will be those who step in with high quality and a great price. Toyota didn't get where it is by selling their cars for a higher price. Considering the price of a car and it's materials costs, R&D, and engineering effort, there's just no reason for great ebikes not be available for less than $1k in the near future. Ebikes are just too simple for this not to happen.

 

[dogman dan]

Decent quality in a pedal bike is often at least a thou. But moderate quality, better than wallbike and with a bottom end tunable front shock should be doable for $1500 retail when sold at a big chain store. But once you put that bike into a small retail outlet like a typical bike shop, no way can it sell that cheap.

If a good battery is $600 mail order, and a good motor kit is $500 mail order, and a moderate quality bike is $350, that is $1450 right there. Add some CS after the sale, and no way is it going to ever be $1000 for a quality ebike. Particularly, CS on batteries is always going to be quite costly. And you will also have shop time spent on the occasional cut wire or loose plug.

But if Ebikes get REALLY adopted in the US, you might see a bit better bike, or a bit bigger battery for $2000 in a ready made bike. Personally, I do think a bit too much is being spent on fancy looking designs, rather than making a simple mod to an existing frame. (solid rear rack or mounts for frame battery) Fancy frame styles are not worth an extra $1500 for the bike.

 

[Anonymous]

I think a universally agreed upon setup, that can maintain over 2kw peak, 1kw continuous as a good starting point will draw in the crowds.

I think a direct drive might work just as well, it's just there's nobody out there with enough money to sell it for the right price.

currently, a 5305 + 12 fet controller + battery = 1300USD. that's way out of most people's budgets. it will give a possible output of 5-6kw, and is definitely great for the enthusiast.

What if we used, say, a cheaper battery, 12ah SLA's, the extra weight will also remove 600USD for the battery.
so that's 700USD shipped.

the controller cost and direct drive motor cost, ^ that's the barrier to break.... if there's any cheaper way of building these, the ebike could be used by everyone.
The best price for a complete kit is 500USD, motor, controller, battery <<< that's the price to beat. Even if we used measly 5ah batteries, it would be a 'tester' sample



cheap = dc brushed + SLA + simple components.

less cheap = dc brushed + lifepo4 + simple components.

with an ebike, and currie drives costing 54USD per order, why don't we use a major controller with this, use the extra money

 

[liveforphysics]

1000$ is very possible to make a very nice ebike for yourself.

$100 9c hub.
$60 12fet.
$220 44v 10ah lipo battery.
$100 rc charger and supply.
$500 for the bike/throttle/wires etc.

But you cant do these prices as a shop (yet), because it leaves no margin or the labor costs of customer support to idiots.

A shop needs to sell for at least 50% higher than that to make ends meet, or sacrifice quality of the bicycle platform.(which most do)

 

[John in CR]

Dogman is a good example of why the prices are high. He's a pedalist and despite being a bargain hunter he thinks $1000 for a good bike is okay. It's not ok, it's way over-priced for what it is and the small amount of raw materials involved. The difference between a $200 big box store bike and a $1000+ bike is a few pounds of small parts that are not reasonably worth 80% of the price. The prices are only as high as they are because pedalists willingly pay it. The general public simply will not. With big box stores already selling bottom of the line electric bikes for $300-$400, there's no reason to think that solid bikes won't get below the $1k mark. That 4th digit will be a road block to very broad adoption, because in the public's eye "It's just a bike + a small electric motor and batteries." I'm in complete agreement with that viewpoint.

Another way to look at it is compared to other 2 wheel modes of transport. If you can get a gas scooter that is much more vehicle than a legal ebike in all ways, then a higher price for the bike isn't logical.

I look forward to the day in the near future that ebikes like the A2B are $999 or less with lots of different bikes and brands to choose from.

John

 

[USAEBIKECO]

My customers tell me all the time price is everything. They also want to buy from someone local if they are going to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars. They also need someone local to service the bikes if needed.

The electric bike industry is still unknown to about 80 percent of consumers. They just dont know electric bikes exist. Electric bicycles are a brilliant idea. But how do you sell in a market where no one knows your product? It's difficult. I am just in awe how Optibike sells ebikes for $10k+

I hope with republicans in charge gas goes back to $4-$5 a gallon. It does not bother me at all.

 

[Lessss]

Optibike sells ebikes for $10k

They sell one bike a year and they call the business a success.

 

[dogman dan]

I don't think it's Ok for bikes to cost as much as they do. But I know that's how it is. Suspension fork prices in particular are outrageous. All my bikes are bought used for a fraction of their original cost. I've never bought a new car in my life, only tools are bought new pretty much, and food. I give my money to real people, not the overpricing manufacturer.

But there is a difference between a nice bike and a really good one. One ride on my $800 retail price giant and you're sold on that price bracket of bikes. Till you take one ride on my $1500 retail price specialized. I swear I almost have to wipe the cream off the seat when I ride that specialized. It's just sooo cush.

But not everbody has my junk hunting skills or the time to do it. The used bike shop guy gives me a call when something cool hits his shop now. But regular joe is generally stuck with buying new, from wallmart or the bike shop. And ends up with $3-$400 at least into a decent entry level bike. For sure not that many are up to lacing thier own hubs.

But the prices over $2500 for a good ready made ebike are nuts. Too much fancy frame design eating the money I think. And yes, most ebikers are motivated by lack of funds, and even $1000 is too much. But they are also often dissapointed with the range and speed of a really cheap 24v lead powered bike. So the really cheap bike often is a self defeating cycle that leads the customer back to the car.

A2B is a good example of a bike that could potentially retail for $1000 someday. But not till production runs get much larger. Meanwhile, wanna bet china has copied it already, but the version they'll sell for much less will be much lower quality, and feel like it when you ride it.

 

[FMB42]

It's all about supply, demand, mass production, and price, IMO.

Electric bicycles make up a very small percentage of the vehicle market and, as such, are mass produced in extremely small numbers (total vehicle percentage wise). This lack of demand and mass production continues to price ebikes "out of reach" for the average consumer. Large scale ebike consumer demand is also greatly hindered by the "user unfriendliness" of most battery powered vehicles of today (people, in general, are very much used to "gas and go" or "plug and play" consumer products rather than the "charge and then go or play" usage that high current demand rechargeable and/or non "replaceable" battery powered products require.

The answer (IMO) to this complicated e-vehicle "supply, demand, mass production, and price" equation may, in part, entail a wide spread "swap and go" battery infrastructure of "E stations" that would allow electric vehicle operators a quick and easy means of replacing their depleted batteries on demand (just as internal combustion vehicle operators do when they "fill up" at a gas station). These "E stations" would, of course, place a greater demand on our electrical power generation infrastructure which would, in turn, place a greater demand of both existing and alternative energy sources.

 

[Anonymous]

Looking at the prices of controllers 2 years ago, and today, this is slowly happening, I calculate a 20% decrease in costs, it's cheaper, but not that cheap yet, good point

It's all about supply, demand, mass production, and price, IMO.

Electric bicycles make up a very small percentage of the vehicle market and, as such, are mass produced in extremely small numbers (total vehicle percentage wise). This lack of demand and mass production continues to price ebikes "out of reach" for the average consumer. Large scale ebike consumer demand is also greatly hindered by the "user unfriendliness"

 

[Dave Sloan]

The best way to get electric bikes on the market is to let the consumer choose his/her options and then charge a fee to assemble the unit. A lot of the trades people in our area do this with home upgrades. They layout the options - get the consumer to purchase and have deliver the package and then come by and install the package. When I talked to a bike shop in our area - they agreed that it was too expensive to carry inventory on a lot of items and because of the wide range of options - they have gone to the you order we install policies.
The one factor that is scarce is the instructional videos on assembly of electric bikes. In the construction industry these videos are quite common. Most of the videos that I have seen are the slap on the wheel and away you go. Most of us know what works - I think that a lot of the wiring and battery mount discussions sometimes keep a lot of people from getting into Electric bikes. When most of these kits arrive the wires have to be cut and the battery is always a hassle to mount.
With the new slide in battery on the rear carrier this becomes much easier - but does not give many upgrade options. I am surprised that a similar frame mount battery is not available to add power/running time to the equation. Who is going to buy a bike that they cannot upgrade or add onto if they want to change their riding requirements. The cost goes up quite a bit when you have to start from scratch again.
I know that the only way that I can justify an electric bike is by the saving in gas - I have biked to work for four summers and have more then saved the money to the tune of 4000 dollars. I have spent over 2500 dollars on electric bikes of which most of the cheap models now sit idle in my crawl space - if only I had the option of upgrading back at the start. What am I to do with these useless LA cells and DC brushed motors that make such a racket!

 

[veloman]

I think a universally agreed upon setup, that can maintain over 2kw peak, 1kw continuous as a good starting point will draw in the crowds.

This is a scooter/moped. You need to draw the line at about 1000w for an ebike. Anything over that and it's not a bicycle.

Of course there are some of us (myself included) who still want an ebike with tons of power, which is really nothing more than a low power motorcycle masquerading as a bicycle. But this is not good or legal for the masses.

Ebikes with 500watts do fine at taking away the excuses people would have against bicycle commuting (too far, hills, sweaty, too slow). When you start using a motor that is 1000w+, it begins a cycle of more power - more battery - more weight - more cost - and LESS BICYCLE.

Generally speaking, I have no problem with the current US federal laws on ebikes of 750w and 20mph. I'm sure you can go 23mph while riding responsible and not get stopped by police. And my 450w motor pushed me up hills at 2-3 times the speed of normal cycling.


The reason ebikes are not popular is due to the culture of the car. The average person doesn't want to go 20mph on a bicycle when they can go 40mph down the same road in a sheltered car. In cities, normal bikes prevail because they are so simple and hassle free, and you don't need electric power to go a couple miles where it's mostly flat.

Ebikes will ONLY come back and grow significantly if gas prices go above $5 a gallon here in the US. The bottom line is (in order)

Convenience
Safety
Speed
Money
Style

Car will always be king in the US.

 

[oldpiper]

IMHO, ebikes AND e-cars will take off only when the driving range (read: battery capacity and/or recharge/swapout) problem is fixed. Once that's done, and e-cars can be looked at as good enough for being the only car type in a household, ebikes are going to be considered for daily commutes. At the present, with all those heavy internal combustion automobiles, trucks, and 18-wheelers on every road around, an ebike is still safe only on a limited subset of routes, cutting adoption drastically.

Cameron