Sandy shows vulnerability of electric vehicles
- Thread starter bigmoose
- Start date
Sancho's Horse
1 kW
I buried some anti-microbial fiber-optic from Germany. Pretty nasty stuff. Very soft, expensive, hard to push (and very easy for current pushing machines to eat into mechanically). You guys use it in your sewer systems. Most insulators get eaten by something...eventually. I think this stuff was guaranteed for 50 years from microbial compromise. This, however, will play a role in the future. Hard to get a straight shot through most cities for more than a few feet, unless using existing outdated and need to be replaced piping is your thing. However, new pipes will be coming to some big cities in the US. There will be all kinds of nifty stuff that can be added to the utility wire mix which gan give nifty uh...capabilities. I believe we are waiting on further exploration of those capabilities, and for parts of the existing system to crap out/need replaced. This stuff always lasts longer than they expect though.
arkmundi
10 MW
This has got to be one of the all time greatest threads on ES. I mean lets mix up reference to our fossil fuel dependency with giant huricanes fed by warming seas, people in dire straits as they fend for their lives in an electricity and gas starved region, and add in for good measure a dose of survivalism and place on top a rosy red cherry of good humor. Lol 
Lessss
1 MW
Burying cables is not more disruptive and expensive as long as it's part of a logical planned systems integration package. Cable TV, phones, sewage, electricity etc ..
The ground is going to be dug up for the water pipes anyway so if the cable for tv phones and electricity are laid at the same time it's actually cheap because the costs are being shared.
Unfortunately that would require REAL planning which north america just does not do.
Just image the profits a city could make if they paid for all that up front then licensed that delivery infrastructure to competing bidding companies.
The ground is going to be dug up for the water pipes anyway so if the cable for tv phones and electricity are laid at the same time it's actually cheap because the costs are being shared.
Unfortunately that would require REAL planning which north america just does not do.
Just image the profits a city could make if they paid for all that up front then licensed that delivery infrastructure to competing bidding companies.
Gordo
100 kW
Is it? I built a 100 subscriber buried CATV system 42 years ago. The buried, tar coated, cable cost 10% more than aerial. The installation was much quicker, simpler and less costly. No spinning the cable to the messenger from pole to pole, no clamps and straps installed after climbing the pole. Flopping cable in a ditch is many times quicker. No annual pole rent paid to the utility company. The same excavation was used for sewer, storm drain, water, power, telephone and CATV. None of the services have failed to date. The only additional cost for power cable is the plastic conduit it is run in. The on going cost of servicing aerial utilities is many time that of buried services, as the fault rate is far higher. The cost of specialized vehicles, the number of people required and the down time is far greater for aerial repair service, than buried. Think of changing a transformer on a pole, with a much higher failure rate, to changing one in a kiosk? In 42 years, I have received one service call to repair a buried cable damaged by a resident driving a ground rod for a Citizen's Band Radio base station, through the center of the CATV cable. It was very easy to talk the local plumber through isolating the damaged section and providing temporary service to the affected customers, 200 miles away. Try getting a plumber to climb a pole vs standing on the ground 
Punx0r said:Burying cables is much more expensive and potentiall disruptive, though
Sancho's Horse
1 kW
Dig a ditch in New York City, eh? Good luck. The way they do it now is generally a shared expense thing, and using directional drilling. They will pull in one big pipe, and then as groups are willing to pay rent (yes rent) for pipe space, the owner will allow those utilities to pull in smaller pipes with their particular utility provided they work well together with everything already in the pipe.
It definitely is close to on par expense wise in rural areas, especially if you are pulling off of diffuse aeriel infrastructure, and you have clay soil. Put a spool on the bulldozer modified to pull a 5-6 foot deep plow blade (depending on what type of line), and cut it in. Small runs just use little ditch witch trencher. If you already have the aerial infrastructure in place though, it is just easier to attach another line, swing it over to where it is needed and done. Cheap, fast, and already ingrained. Once you have so many lines coming off of a particular aerial investment, unwinding that line becomes pretty expensive and very slow. You have to bury all the line to the houses/businesses, bury the main line, and dig the hole during the day and usually at night you switch over to the new line one by one. Lots of copper/fiber gets wasted. Lots of man hours to figure out each individual circumstance. Sounds easier than it is, and if you have a new house/business, connecting can take far longer and far more money, which they usually have the property owner eat.
They already put in extra pipes at big building sites if they have foresight (which they usually do...it is funny how losing money develops foresight). I know you are going to say they are setting around saying, "why pay for it now when we can charge big bucks later." Generally not happening as much. Too much potential liability, so the corruption comes with rent prices. They have also tried burying cables with big train pulled plow blades. Unfortunately, even buried deep, they find that the weight of the trains will eventualy create mechanical damage compromising the line. Any way you face it, the problem is tricky, slow, and even has some of the old school guys debate the merits of burying the lines.
It definitely is close to on par expense wise in rural areas, especially if you are pulling off of diffuse aeriel infrastructure, and you have clay soil. Put a spool on the bulldozer modified to pull a 5-6 foot deep plow blade (depending on what type of line), and cut it in. Small runs just use little ditch witch trencher. If you already have the aerial infrastructure in place though, it is just easier to attach another line, swing it over to where it is needed and done. Cheap, fast, and already ingrained. Once you have so many lines coming off of a particular aerial investment, unwinding that line becomes pretty expensive and very slow. You have to bury all the line to the houses/businesses, bury the main line, and dig the hole during the day and usually at night you switch over to the new line one by one. Lots of copper/fiber gets wasted. Lots of man hours to figure out each individual circumstance. Sounds easier than it is, and if you have a new house/business, connecting can take far longer and far more money, which they usually have the property owner eat.
They already put in extra pipes at big building sites if they have foresight (which they usually do...it is funny how losing money develops foresight). I know you are going to say they are setting around saying, "why pay for it now when we can charge big bucks later." Generally not happening as much. Too much potential liability, so the corruption comes with rent prices. They have also tried burying cables with big train pulled plow blades. Unfortunately, even buried deep, they find that the weight of the trains will eventualy create mechanical damage compromising the line. Any way you face it, the problem is tricky, slow, and even has some of the old school guys debate the merits of burying the lines.
arkmundi
10 MW
It should be said, in full context of ES'er appraisal of Sandy, that the first thing coming back online after the storm was the NY subway. Considering the extent of flooding and dependency on mega-volts of electricity, this is rather remarkable. Rather extensive foresight, planning and implementation. All those gasers out there complaining about the long lines filling up, should reconsider their mode of transportation.
I don't know for sure, but I bet there's more involved in buried 500KV transmission lines than pushing a PVC-coated cable into the earth...
We also know 100% that the various utility companies do not co-operate in burying their services at the same time. We're talking about crossing paved urban areas here, not Farmer Giles' corn field. Gas, electric, water, phone/catv - they all dig trenches in the road separately. I assume just to wind me up personally!
We also know 100% that the various utility companies do not co-operate in burying their services at the same time. We're talking about crossing paved urban areas here, not Farmer Giles' corn field. Gas, electric, water, phone/catv - they all dig trenches in the road separately. I assume just to wind me up personally!
jkbrigman
10 kW
Punx0r said:
Brilliant, that they knew what pulley to hook up to and drive with the bike.
Sancho's Horse
1 kW
Never seen buried transmission lines put in, just ones in service which usually involved some concrete. The people winning engineering awards are doing exactly as I described with steel pipe, filled with XLPE pipe (usually with a lengthwise ribbed pattern on the inside to aid in pulling/blowing wire), and XLPE jacketed wire and yes that includes sharing space with fiber/phone, and leaving spares. The air helps center the wire as it is pushed, provide a little help overcoming friction, and when a pig (a piece of foam) is blown through, it clears out debris/water prior to feeding the wire. I haven't heard of much PVC being used, mostly the cross-linked poly-ethylene (high density, and easily extruded to length). Direct bury of XLPE wire happens all the time, even transmission, but mostly just service lines. They just have to be to depth. Here is an image bank from OSHA featuring buried transmission lines:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/electric_power/illustrated_glossary/transmission_lines.html
Mostly tunnels for transmission in cities, but that is old tech. Improved cable fault location technique makes maintenance less of a problem. I am assuming if it is going to be done they would be using current tech. Google image gives a good cross-section of some of the old and new approaches. Oh, and alsohttp://electrical-engineering-portal.com/types-of-cable-installations-in-electrical-network.
All very expensive though. Only worth it if combined with a further enhanced smart grid and fiber runs. Not ready for primetime in my opinion. A few more years, and build some greater sensing/intelligence into the lines/grid and we have a limited winner. Not now though, unless we want to waste future opportunities.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/electric_power/illustrated_glossary/transmission_lines.html
Mostly tunnels for transmission in cities, but that is old tech. Improved cable fault location technique makes maintenance less of a problem. I am assuming if it is going to be done they would be using current tech. Google image gives a good cross-section of some of the old and new approaches. Oh, and alsohttp://electrical-engineering-portal.com/types-of-cable-installations-in-electrical-network.
All very expensive though. Only worth it if combined with a further enhanced smart grid and fiber runs. Not ready for primetime in my opinion. A few more years, and build some greater sensing/intelligence into the lines/grid and we have a limited winner. Not now though, unless we want to waste future opportunities.
sk8norcal
1 MW
[youtube]TKOwsV7umhc[/youtube]
Actually just the opposite!
You couldnt get gas, my electric vehicles were the only ones running! I was charging them off my generator which I had to run anyways. I tried to help as many people as possible in this, but in a way it felt good to be right. I keep 1000 gals of diesel for my generator here, and have for years....people said i was nuts. The same people called me during the storm asking if they could buy fuel from me.'
--John
You couldnt get gas, my electric vehicles were the only ones running! I was charging them off my generator which I had to run anyways. I tried to help as many people as possible in this, but in a way it felt good to be right. I keep 1000 gals of diesel for my generator here, and have for years....people said i was nuts. The same people called me during the storm asking if they could buy fuel from me.'
--John
Gordo
100 kW
John,
If there is one thing I have learned in my life is that everywhere we have lived, there are those the locals call nuts. I seek out all the nuts and have never been disappointed.
I have yet to meet a nut who was not several times more interesting and usually several time more intelligent than the "normal people." I've been striving hard to be labeled a nut, but haven't made it yet.
If there is one thing I have learned in my life is that everywhere we have lived, there are those the locals call nuts. I seek out all the nuts and have never been disappointed.
I have yet to meet a nut who was not several times more interesting and usually several time more intelligent than the "normal people." I've been striving hard to be labeled a nut, but haven't made it yet.
johndjmix said:
arkmundi
10 MW
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you shouldn't be. 
Gordo
100 kW
I think you are a nut and there is others who say the same don't worry conversation does happen behind your back [/quote]
You made my day
How many volts do you apply to a chicken to get it to start laying eggs?
[/quote] You made my day How many volts do you apply to a chicken to get it to start laying eggs?
I think 170v will do the trick.Gordo said:Arlo1 said:I think you are a nut and there is others who say the same don't worry conversation does happen behind your back
How many volts do you apply to a chicken to get it to start laying eggs?
Love it -). Seems like this time It worked out. (The 1000 gals of fuel is mainly for my telcom facility). We were the only facility online for the whole 7 day power outage. We about doubled our business, and was able to led fuel to locals in need. This time I have the last laugh -). Im not building a bunker underground or stockpiling food, although, it was scarey to walk into stores and find no food, and gas stations with no gas. Especially if you have kids or elderly.
--John
--John
Toshi
10 kW
johndjmix said:
8) Good on you for being prepared. Good call on the 1,000 gallons of diesel, too.
dingoEsride said:
Not true. This 30 kW NG Kohler, for instance, will do 120/208V 3-phase happily, and will even kick out 44 Amps at 277/480V! http://kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4171.pdf
dogman said:
Ah, the universal problem with generators: Getting fuel for them in times of crisis. Diesel, as John picked, is one option. Natural gas, often half the cost per unit of energy, is another. (Gasoline isn't an option, since it can't be stored for long periods of time.)
My plan to solve my personal crisis time power and transportation issues is to have a big dual fuel NG/LP generator and an alt-fuel vehicle (or vehicles) of some sort. A dual fuel generator can run off NG if the NG distribution grid is up and LP from an on-site tank if NG isn't flowing. Spec it out large enough and it'd have no problem supplying, say, 10 kW EVSE, in addition to the baseline house/HVAC loads. So with this setup one could keep one's EVs on the road, a la John above.
Alternately, one could also use the NG itself from the grid along with the electricity from the generator to run VRA. What's a VRA, you ask? VRA:CNG-powered vehicles::EVSE:EVs. With a VRA, which is basically a fancy compressor, and a generator one could refuel a CNG-capable vehicle indefinitely. (Much more on this CNG-vehicle + generator + VRA idea here.)
After living through these past few post-Sandy weeks of limited communication, power, and fuel I'm motivated to design my future arrangements such that I'm never in this position again.
50yearoldebiker
10 W
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2012
- Messages
- 96
" Sandy Shows Vulnerability of Electric vehicles " ?
I gassed up my Mercury Sable as Sandy was approaching & parked it in the Garage.
After the storm blew through I hit the road on my E-Maxi MiPower E-Bike , it was a little dangerous but not as bad as commuting to NYC on my 1967 HD Electric Glide which is what I did back in 1983-5. I checked in on friends & family, rode down streets cars couldnt make it through around trees & power lines , ran errands & took care of business. I rode 107 miles on my E-Bike first 2 weeks of Sandy & put 10 miles on the car, actually I still have over 3/4 of a tank left since the fill up the night of the storm allmost a month later.
I did have my electricity throughout the storm my town is an incorporated village with it's own Power Plant & we didnt lose power & we were lucky in that aspect as 90 % of Long Island was without power for a couple weeks or more so I was ableto charge up , but a generator wouldve charged my bike or a Solar Panel set-up . My Electric Vehicle showed to be a valuable tool not a Vulnerability .
I gassed up my Mercury Sable as Sandy was approaching & parked it in the Garage.
After the storm blew through I hit the road on my E-Maxi MiPower E-Bike , it was a little dangerous but not as bad as commuting to NYC on my 1967 HD Electric Glide which is what I did back in 1983-5. I checked in on friends & family, rode down streets cars couldnt make it through around trees & power lines , ran errands & took care of business. I rode 107 miles on my E-Bike first 2 weeks of Sandy & put 10 miles on the car, actually I still have over 3/4 of a tank left since the fill up the night of the storm allmost a month later.
I did have my electricity throughout the storm my town is an incorporated village with it's own Power Plant & we didnt lose power & we were lucky in that aspect as 90 % of Long Island was without power for a couple weeks or more so I was ableto charge up , but a generator wouldve charged my bike or a Solar Panel set-up . My Electric Vehicle showed to be a valuable tool not a Vulnerability .
jkbrigman
10 kW
Hello All who have responded to this thread who are in the "Sandy Zone". Can I get a summary from any of you there, what would you say are the important preparedness lessons from this event for those of us who use EV's? (bikes, motorcycles, cars)
I've read this thread carefully and I keep up with new postings, so I'm aware of the information posted so far: gas stations with no gas. Grocery stores with no groceries. No electricity. And I've seen the postings from the gentleman with the 1000 gallons of diesel.
What were the most fragile things to fail, and how quickly did they fail after the storm? (I'm thinking electric power.)
What about gasoline for your ICE cars? Were you able to stretch out what you have in the tank? (via walking, regular bike or ebike?)
What "small" things could you have done, in preparedness, to have made this experience more manageable or bearable?
What "large" things do you plan to do in the future?
What things that you already did to prepare (or maybe even accidentally did) turned out to be valuable?
Do you know of anyone in the affected area who may have had solar (PV or SHW) who has been able to generate their own power?
(BTW: I'm in the southeast US and sent food, clothing, potable water jug, two gas cans, extension cords and my own portable up to be distributed by the Red Cross. I have been very concerned on a humanitarian basis as well as a preparedness basis. We get hit all the time by hurricanes and flooding here so we are no stranger to these kind of events.)
To those in the zone: Thank you for communicating out to us and sharing your experiences, especially your successes!
I've read this thread carefully and I keep up with new postings, so I'm aware of the information posted so far: gas stations with no gas. Grocery stores with no groceries. No electricity. And I've seen the postings from the gentleman with the 1000 gallons of diesel.
What were the most fragile things to fail, and how quickly did they fail after the storm? (I'm thinking electric power.)
What about gasoline for your ICE cars? Were you able to stretch out what you have in the tank? (via walking, regular bike or ebike?)
What "small" things could you have done, in preparedness, to have made this experience more manageable or bearable?
What "large" things do you plan to do in the future?
What things that you already did to prepare (or maybe even accidentally did) turned out to be valuable?
Do you know of anyone in the affected area who may have had solar (PV or SHW) who has been able to generate their own power?
(BTW: I'm in the southeast US and sent food, clothing, potable water jug, two gas cans, extension cords and my own portable up to be distributed by the Red Cross. I have been very concerned on a humanitarian basis as well as a preparedness basis. We get hit all the time by hurricanes and flooding here so we are no stranger to these kind of events.)
To those in the zone: Thank you for communicating out to us and sharing your experiences, especially your successes!
Toshi
10 kW
jkbrigman said:
Power went out even before the brunt of the storm hit for some unlucky folks. The outages were immediate and widespread with the wind and falling trees.
I stretched out a tank of gas in my wife's Prius for two weeks. I was able to bum rides home from work a few times and rode in twice on the e-bike, but it wasn't a practicable option the first week due to debris on the side of the road and streetlights out.
The one largest thing I'm doing is to install a standby generator (NG, probably) when I build a house. No question about that. I'll also ensure I have at least one alt-fuel car-sized vehicle to use, whether EV (with home charging via EVSE and the generator) or CNG (with home refueling via VRA, the NG line, and the generator).
I don't know anyone who has non-grid tied solar, and anyone with grid tied solar was SOL while the grid was down. It's not a viable backup power option, IMO.
dingoEsride
100 kW
Toshi said:
You've read me wrong, that was a statement written in the original article that I was disagreeing to, we here run mains at 240v so there are plenty of gennies that supply the same