Serengeti Panther Scooter Won't Run

[aelb771]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate some help here. I’ll try and be as detailed as possible, so pardon the long post. I picked up this Serengeti Panther scooter on Craigslist the other day for a steal (only paid $80). It does not run. Apparently the scooter never worked even when it was first delivered (less than one mile on it), so the company refunded the original owner’s $800 in full.

I’ve never had an electric scooter before, and thought it might be fun to tinker with. When I have the wall charger plugged in, the LED light on the charger is green (it flickers red/green if I have the ignition turned to on). If I leave it plugged in and the ignition on, the headlights and the instrument panel will spontaneously turn on every 20-30 minutes. During SOME of these episodes, the battery meter will shoot to Full. I can then run the throttle for a few seconds, the rear wheel will spin (slowly), and the scooter will completely die again. Again, this will only happen when the wall charger is plugged in and the ignition is turned to on, it won’t happen if unplugged.

Based on my limited reading the last couple of days, I’m guessing it’s either the controller, the charger, or the battery. If it’s the battery, I’ll have to switch it out to SLA, since Li-Ion is too expensive. I’ve read of some people doing this. But to be honest, it seems like a moderate amount of work to have to hook up four 12 volt batteries together, especially since I’ve never done it before.

If it’s the charger, it looks like I can get one shipped from China for pretty cheap, it just might take a while to get here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Bi...6b1653e&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=370907313939

But the fact that it intermittently gets power makes me think that it’s not the charger. Could it then be the controller? Should I try ordering one of these and see if it fixes the problem? http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers48volt.html
Would there be any benefit to upgrading to a 1000W controller, or would this cause damage to the motor?

I also read something about maybe the hub motor being out of phase? It’s in the comments to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CI78nblMQ0

I know there are safety switches that prevent acceleration if the kickstand is down, or if the brakes are being depressed. So I thought maybe it could be a short circuit in one of those…but that would probably only explain loss of acceleration, not complete power.

Thanks in advance for any insights!

 

[Dauntless]

Milou hasn't been around for awhile, he put some serious work into trying to get one someone gave him going. He mentioned working with Amberwolf on his, don't know if the Wolf remembers anything.

This thing started out as a $3,600 scooter, can't believe it would have sold at that price if they did work right. The price fell to $799. I did a bunch of research on it because I was just dying to experiment on your problem bike, but they never became available around me. My old links don't work anymore, but they had a battery problem. The factory would send a new battery that would have the same problem. They would then have the owner send the keys and issue a refund, so all these tinkertoys were sitting around waiting to be played with. It was killing me I could never score one.

There were theories that the controller had some ground short that was draining and destroying the battery, etc., but there were some that were working just fine. When it worked the owners loved them. There was some strangeness about a lock over the keyswitch that I never saw a picture of so I don't know what to say. I also wonder about the key, if the old owner made a copy to see it after his refund, would it work? Some people described quite a fob on their key, others were flat.

People insist this is the same bike, haven't seen either one so I can't say. http://shopsmartplanet.giftsuperstore.net/i/234079/fully-electric-500w-moped-scooter.htm

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/serengetilithiumelectricscooterparts.html

 

[dnmun]

open the battery so you can see why it has swollen up like that. measure the cell voltages on the BMS pcb where the sense wire plug socket is soldered to the pcb. list the 16 cell voltages here.

 

[aelb771]

I actually have the original keys. There's a cover over the ignition slot that can be locked. You then use the octagon shaped portion of the key to unlock the cover.

I think the picture makes the battery look more swelled than it is. The blue plastic casing is cracked and is just spread out a little...making it look swelled.

I was reading this post about testing the ECU: https://turbobobbicycleblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/electric-bike-troubleshooting-part-2/
I also found this on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Bhbuy-Electro...20&sr=8-1&keywords=brushless+motor+controller

I just bought a multimeter...is there an idiot proof way I can test the controller with it?

 

[dnmun]

sure, why waste your time examining it. what would cell voltages tell you anyway. you are gonna go to lead acid so no need to waste any effort on an old dead battery.

 

[aelb771]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound dismissive. To be honest, I've never opened a lithium ion battery before, but I heard it can be dangerous...is there any specific way to do it so that it's safe?

 

[SlowCo]

dnmun and others helped me out when I was struggling with my battery pack. Maybe my thread on it gives you enough confidence to try and open your pack:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=66456

Good luck.

 

[aelb771]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll do some reading on the basics of how to check voltages. Hopefully I can try and narrow down the problem.

 

[aelb771]

Quick update guys, I was getting ready to open up the battery back this weekend and check each individual cell, but thought I'd check the pack voltage first. Maybe I did it wrong, but it looks like it's showing 48V. Should I still open it up and check each cell? Just thought I'd get your input first (especially since there's a possibility I could cause a short when testing).

Edit: I've also checked the charger, and it's putting out 55V. And I checked the voltage at the 10 gauge Red and Black wires that plug into the controller: 48 Volts. So this leads me to believe that the problem is at the controller, or somewhere further along. I took apart the controller, and didn't see anything obviously blown, (but again, I'm a newbie). I cicrcled the only part that looked maybe a little bit funny. I also tested the controller according to this guide, and it seemed to check out ok. http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/BlownMosfets.pdf

 

[aelb771]

One more update: I'm measuring 47V all the way at this red and yellow wire that connects with the ignition switch. Could the fix be as easy as replacing the ignition switch?

 

[Voltron]

Possibly, yes, it could be that simple. There's at least 8 or 10 spots where a bad connection can make the system act like it's in its death spasms. Or something that should get disconnected that isn't essential to the motor running,like a light or anti theft or something shorting out. And yes, you should still check all the cells... One of the groups could be at really high voltage, and another one real low, leaving the total look right that you see at the meter. That's the point of balancing if you haven't checked that out yet.
Or maybe just take the motor out, build a new high voltage battery, put it on a fun frame and go crazy on it.



I had more fun per dollar on this one than I could have imagined when I got it as a breaking down Extreme 600 scooter. When that pic was taken there was at least 6000 miles that I put on that motor and cheap ebay controller.. 4 rear tires worth!

 

[aelb771]

Thanks for the advice, I'll still check the individual cell voltages.

Could I connect the red and yellow wires together just for a second and see if the scooter starts? Or would that somehow break it?

 

[Voltron]

It will probably make a large spark if you're seeing that voltage across it..watch your eyes and fingers. Just an fyi from my goofing around.. sometimes you think you're going to just touch some wires together for a second, and the spark welds the wires together enough that its hard to yank them loose, esp with a burned finger and a big purple blob in the middle of your vision! And usually one those kinds of scooters, there's a whole other wire that is the signal that tells the controller to turn on. But sometimes not either...

edit... also re. the battery...you shouldn't have to split it open... thats what the multi colored wires coming out are, they're taps to each of the cell groups to check the voltages and balance them. But study up and don't drink too much coffee (or just enough so you're alert but not shaky.. it's a fine line ) before you go probing around with your meter. It's REALLY easy to short circuit stuff with the tips, right when you're peering in real close to see better.

 

[aelb771]

Sorry for another stupid question. I unplugged the two ribbon cable from the BMS. Can I check the individual cell voltages by touching the probes between two pins at a time? (ex: black/white, gray/purple, blue/green, yellow/gray from the next cable, etc)

 

[dnmun]

what does it mean when you say you measured 47V all the way to the plug with the red and yellow wires?

is there 47 V on the red wire and 47V on the yellow wire? is there 47V between the red and yellow wire at the end in that plug? which is positive if so.

there is no reason to take the controller apart. use some silicone thermal paste on the back of the heat spreader if you have some when you put it back together.

does the yellow wire go to the controller and the red wire to the battery? that plug goes into the switch?

 

[Voltron]

Yes...follow them back to the cells, figure out the order, make a little chart (it's really hard to remember them all), and when you probe...don't poke the pins...touch the little tab that holds it in the plug.. less likely to touch too many at one time there. You might be able to probe them back at the cells too.

 

[dnmun]

if he has 47V on the output of his battery there is no reason to worry about that now because the BMS is functional. i wonder why he cannot charge the battery if his charger is putting out 55V so maybe he has one cell so high that it is at HVC but from what i understand he cannot make the motor turn. it should run if there is voltage on the output of the battery to the controller but this red and yellow wire is the unknown and if it goes to the switch then it could be open circuit in the switch so he is not getting controller circuit current if the yellow wire carries the controller circuit current. just not clear where the wire goes.

 

[aelb771]

The red and yellow wires plug into the ignition switch. When I took this picture a few minutes ago it was measuring 39V...but it's really weird, when I first plugged in the battery, I was getting 26V at those red and yellow wires...and it's been steadily climbing and is at 44 V now

 

[dnmun]

so there is no way to know what they are connected to?

there is a red and yellow wire inside the controller. is the switch plug connected to them?

 

[aelb771]

Not really...they disappear into a mess of cables that ultimately goes back to the controller.


Yes red and yellow are plugged in at the controller. There are two plugs coming from the controller that are unplugged, but I can't find anything that connects with them.

 

[aelb771]

Just to clarify, the problem isn't just the motor not turning, I don't get any power at all...(no headlights, dashboard lights, etc). The picture I posted with the headlights on is something that just happens spontaneously when I leave the charger plugged in. Everything then shuts down after a few seconds.

 

[dnmun]

disconnect the battery and then check continuity between the red and yellow wire in the plug and the red and yellow wire in the controller since you have it open.

 

[aelb771]

Ok I'll check the continuity. One other thought: When I have the charger plugged in and the ignition turned on, the DC/DC converter makes a ticking noise. Is that normal? Even if the DC/DC converter is broken, would that cause the motor to lose power as well, or just the lights, etc?


Edit: It looks as though the red ignition wire is continuous with the thinner red wire, and the yellow ignition wire is continuous with the thick red wire.

 

[aelb771]

Here's a video I just shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yatFOoS2cq4

Everything died before I was able to run the throttle. Sometimes the throttle does actually work, but the wheel turns really slowly. I'll try and catch it on another video.

Again, the dashboard lights up like this only when the wall charger is plugged in, and the ignition is on. It doesn't happen when the wall charger is unplugged. And it just happens randomly...all of a sudden everything will turn on, and then it shuts down a few seconds later.

 

[dnmun]

ok that is because the battery is out of balance so now you can go check the cell voltages, you should find one or more close to the LVC.