Somebody help! (Re: battery for Tidal Force 750X)

Stotheu

Stotheu

1 mW
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
14
Hi everyone. I have a Tidal Force 750x that I bought off someone a year ago. It runs great, but I would like to purchase a second battery just to give a little extra range. Doesn't need to be anything major. My question is, what is the most minimal battery I could hook up to the battery 'B' terminal ? Ie. Could I use a 36v 10 amp battery?

I'm pretty sure the guy told me it was a 1000 watt motor and not 750 watt. The original battery charger shows a 36 volt rating. That's pretty much all I know.
Once again, I am simply looking for a battery that I can put in my back pack and basically get me home after the hub battery is depleted.

Go easy on me...I'm new to all of this. :) Thanks
 
about the discharge rating, it is actually managed by the controller, motors are a "brainless beasts", they eat and push what the controllers send them so you need to know how much amps your controller can push at peak and continuously and then use a battery that would stand that rating not stressed for the cells, and with a BMS with similar or more ratings (to feed the controller with all the power it can manage).

As long as I know that controller take 30A peak, so you should use any 36V battery that can push 20A continuously and 30A peak minimum.

If you are gonna use 36V lithium-ion battery, with standard NCA / NCM cells, you should get around a 36V 12Ah or more, to have a not stressed battery with that controller and motor combination
 
Thanks for the help. Would you happen to know where I could go online to find out the specs of the controller? I found this online, does it make sense to you?
"If you have a Tidalforce 1,000 watt motor, then you'll need a battery that can output 27.7 Amps maximum since that is what the motor will draw. (1,000W/36V=27.77A). If you have a 10Ah battery then you'll need one that can output 2.7C."

I think my bike is 1000w, but I will email the guy I bought it from to make sure. If this is the case (1,000W/36V=27.77A), what happens if the battery is only 36V, 10 amps?
 
http://www.electrikmotion.com/S750 Tidal Force.htm

As the specs and performance the good battery to work in any condition is a 15A continuous 30A peak rated one.

36V 12Ah (amps-hour) would be the minimum recommended for any purpose in your ebike.

If you use a 36V 10Ah or less lithium-ion battery for you build, it will be a little stressed , and that means heat and bad efficiency.

If you use LiFePo4 cells you can use 8Ah - 10Ah

the important thing is that your controller is 36V so you must use a battery with 36V nominal voltage (as 10s lithium-ion 18650 packs)
 
Thank you so much.

I took a look at the manual and Under the battery section it says:

Battery configuration: 30 Nickle Metal Hydride 'D' cells wired in series
Nominal voltage: 36 volts
Operating range: 42-29 volts
Nominal capacity: 8.3 amp-hrs

Last question,
will the controller (that has 5 red lights that show the battery level), be able to still acurately read the new battery that will most certainly not be Nimh. Rather, it will be lithium.
Thanks...
 
Amazing! I can't thank you enough, and thanks for the quick responses. I'll keep you posted on how it works out. I'll be getting a 36v, 15 amp battery for $400 with charger from a guy who owns an ebike shop. Once again I'm just looking for a battery that will give me a bit more distance so that I can get home. I don't mind peddling, but this particular bike weighs a ton!

Thanks again.
 
Can you tell me which terminals are positive and[/img] negative? Please see pic. The male end

http://www.amazon.ca/Power-Extension-Cable-IE320C13-IEC320C14/dp/B001BLTDNM/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434070269&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Power+Cable+Extension+IEC-C14+Male
 
Just a little heads up on the Tidalforce. The battery state of charge indication is not calculated by the dashboard itself. There is a cable that comes from the original Tidalforce hub battery (or OEM B battery) that provides the signals for the state of charge. With the extra battery you are adding on, you will not get a state of charge indicator. You will also need to install a jumper to tell the motor to use a non OEM B battery that doesn't provide signals from the it's BMS.

https://sites.google.com/site/continuousforce/home/tidalforce/everything-tidalforce

It's not a hard thing to do at all. The B battery selection button on the dashboard will also not work. When you connect the second battery, the throttle will be active all the time. If you trace the wires, you will see that the A and B battery connectors are in parallel on a bus. You might want to buy a battery that has an on/off switch built into the BMS.

Have a good time with your bike. The Tidalforce is old technology and a huge motor but it was way ahead of it's time. It uses technology that most motors / controllers don't use even today.
 
mamcinty already provided the link to TF Google forum.
Why to bother with battery B when you can get rid of hub Nickel battery /archaic chemistry/ on your TIDAL FORCE. All it takes is to install jumper in console.
Just make sure TF is shut down and even better all connectors disconnected before placing jumper.
My TIDAL FORCE step-through reached 27,000 kilometers last winter on Lithium built from A123 20Ah pouch cells.
In terms of reliability you cannot get much better than TF. Saw my pictures inside TF motor at around 25,000km ???
Just do ES search.
Yes , my TF is my winter commuter in harsh Alberta winters.
Of course FALCO /5-phase design/ and EPLUS /3-phase design/ are much more efficient due to FOC controllers.
But I love smoothness and rock solid feel of TF /7-phase design/.
All of three ebike drives had been design by the same design studio in USA.
 
Looks like I'm officially having a problem guys. It looks like when I USE TO turn my key all 3 lights (turbo, cruise and regen) would light up, like a system check of some sort. Then I would press the 'A' button for battery A and off I go. This is no longer happening (3 lights are not lighting up after I turn the key) and even tho the battery A lights up and charges fine, nothing happens when I press the throttle? I unplugged everything for 15 minutes to reset the system but nothing. I had to ride home, when I got in I charged up the battery to full, tried again...no 3 lights and no throttle but I could see that the battery was fully charged. I then unplugged all connections again for approx. 25 minutes, and when I plugged it back in I did see the 3 lights flicker momentarily but then nothing once again. Does anyone know what might be going on here? Almost seems like the system check is not initiating?

(I have had no issues up until today. I should mention that I was using a secondary battery in the Terminal 'A' (I just unplug it when its dead and switch back to the oringial hub battery A once its dead). I was using cruise control, and then had to stop. when I tried to start again...there was no power.)

Please help!!!
 
PROGRESS: SO...I managed to figure out what the problem is. Either the positive or negative wire is faulty where the battery 'A' cable connects to the motor in the rear hub. When I jiggle it i get power or if I twist it slightly I get power and throttle works. When I release it, it goes back to not working. I'll see if I can get the guy at my local RC shop to solder on 2 new ends. Hopefully that will perminantly solve the problem. I will keep you all posted. And thanks to everyone who offered their support. I truly appreciate it.
 
Hi guys, question. I would like to add a new twist throttle to my bike, is there one that you can suggest that is simple and easy to connect? When I look at the schematics it appears that there are four pins on the inside of the controller that are allocated for the throttle cable. The reason I am going to a twist throttle is because I recently put in rapid gear shifters and my handlebar is getting pretty loaded up with levers and I have to extend my form a little further to reach the throttle.
Here are the schematics for the inside of my controller. Thanks

https://sites.google.com/site/continuousforce/home/tidalforce/everything-tidalforce
 
Hi everyone. Basically I can charge the bike no problem, and I can ride it for approximately 10-15 mins or so before all 5 lights on the controller begin to blink and all power is cut to the motor. I then turn the bike off and turn the key, then turn key back on and select batter 'A' and then I'm good to go but then if I throttle for too long ({5-10 seconds continuously) the problem repeats with lights blinking and no power?

I have also nocited that the power on a full charge doesn't feel the same either...not as much power as before, and sags a bit I think...but then there are times where it feels fine.

(OTHER THINGS TO LET YOU KNOW just in case)
There is a second battery i was using as well which (before this 5 lights thing started) would have the power cut every 20 mins. and then I would turn off, on and back to riding. This would happen every 20 mins but I could at least ride for several hours until the battery was dead...this secondary battery was not as strong as the built in hub battery which can jump to 48v for turbo. ---This issue with the second battery happened long before I got the above problem with the 5 blinking lights...and I could live with that.

and lastly because I had noticed that the rear Anderson connection was melting due to the heat when switching to turbo, I changed the Anderson connection to something that could handle higher votage, and there were no issues. ---Once again this was changed long before these 5 blinking lights started.

So in short...I can still use the bike but the 5 lights start blinking and power cuts and then I have to keep reseting and being very gentle with the throttle in order to get back home so as not to trigger the 5 lights blinking.


SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP!!!! and sorry for the novel. I am new to this stuff. Thanks
 
Hi there, I hope you are doing well! I just posted to the forum regarding a problem I am having with the power cutting and all 5 lights blinking. Here's what I wrote, hopefully you can help. Thanks.
------------------------------

Hi everyone. Basically I can charge the bike no problem, and I can ride it for approximately 10-15 mins or so before all 5 lights on the controller begin to blink and all power is cut to the motor. I then turn the bike off and turn the key, then turn key back on and select batter 'A' and then I'm good to go but then if I throttle for too long ({5-10 seconds continuously) the problem repeats with lights blinking and no power?

I have also nocited that the power on a full charge doesn't feel the same either...not as much power as before, and sags a bit I think...but then there are times where it feels fine.

(OTHER THINGS TO LET YOU KNOW just in case)
There is a second battery i was using as well which (before this 5 lights thing started) would have the power cut every 20 mins. and then I would turn off, on and back to riding. This would happen every 20 mins but I could at least ride for several hours until the battery was dead...this secondary battery was not as strong as the built in hub battery which can jump to 48v for turbo. ---This issue with the second battery happened long before I got the above problem with the 5 blinking lights...and I could live with that.

and lastly because I had noticed that the rear Anderson connection was melting due to the heat when switching to turbo, I changed the Anderson connection to something that could handle higher votage, and there were no issues. ---Once again this was changed long before these 5 blinking lights started.

So in short...I can still use the bike but the 5 lights start blinking and power cuts and then I have to keep reseting and being very gentle with the throttle in order to get back home so as not to trigger the 5 lights blinking.


SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP!!!! and sorry for the novel. I am new to this stuff. Thanks
 
I own a M750X as well that has had a similar symptom of cutting out(shut down key, wait, restart, go again) like that. I haven't used the bike for a while due to that and not understanding the cause. My suspicion was that my A battery was starting to go bad with one or more cells degrading. It might also have been from the battery overheating. I'm not sure if the A battery has internal thermistors that cut out when it gets too hot, but that is possible as well. I've read that attempting a diy rebuild in very questionable for that and other reasons. It's the only battery I have and I've recently started to look into getting it rebuilt or just going to a B battery instead.

I heard there is someone that has successfully modified the A hub to Li-ion cells, but have not been able to track them down yet. He uses silver wire in the process somehow. Apparently there is a boost in range with this mod. I'll report back if I can find him.

Hopefully some more experienced e bikers can chime in here. Or maybe somebody knows who the Li-ion modifier is.
 
Thank you very much for the reply! The thing is, I had purchased the secondary battery that I would use once the hub battery was drained and that worked fine for a several months but now the issue with the bike shutting off and all lights on the display blinking are now happening with the secondary battery as well? Which makes me wonder if it is The controller?
 
I'm an old hand with Tidalfforce. I'm not really clear about what your configuration is... I am guessing that you have a non-TidalForce battery plugged into the B connection of the power bus. Hopefully you have completely unplugged the front hub battery from the power bus so it is not getting used to power the bike, and just left the data connection in place.

When using this configuration, the only purpose of the front battery is to send the keep-alive signal to the dashboard through the data connection. That is little demand on the battery, so it can live a long life this way, even when it can't power the bike anymore. However, after 10 minutes of not detecting any power drain, it will time out and shut down. Pressing the "A" button before it times out will restart the 10 minute countdown. Just keep pressing the "A' button periodically and you can run continuously until the aftermarket pack is drained down, although it becomes a bit of a nag to do that.

You can completely eliminate the front battery and wheel by putting a jumper over a pair of pins on its connector on the dashboard, you'd have to google that as I don't remember which pins. Is the TidalForce forum still around? You will get better answers there than you have gotten here - like the link to a 5k hall throttle to replace the 10k pot throttle, or the recommendation for a 20a continuous battery pack, when you needed one that can deliver 60a continuous.

So a few other things from what I have read in this thread - the controller is actually in the rear wheel with the motor, and the dashboard is more of a wiring hub. Turbo mode does not increase voltage from the 36v battery to 48v, it increases amps from 30a to 60a. A TF motor will shut down when supplied with more than 45v; I used to run 12s LiFePO4 to stay just under this limit.

-JD
 
You are absolutely bang on! I am using a battery that is a non tidal force battery and so I am not able to actually get a battery reading. Initially what I was doing was unplugging the battery A And then using a battery that is a nontitle force battery and so I am not able to actually get a battery reading. Initially what I was doing was unplugging the Front hub battery and connecting my second battery into the terminal. This works fine for a while but then I began to get the same blinking lights and mortar shutting down even with my second battery while plugged into the front terminal which is terminal A.

BUT... Yesterday I did that jumper thing and bypassed terminal a and am now using terminal B and the bike is working fine and is not shutting down.! I am still not able to read the battery but the truth is this battery lasts for approximately 3 to 4 hours which is far longer than I typically ride especially when I'm with my son. This will work for now as the motor works perfectly fine but ultimately I will investigate getting a new display that can read the battery. Do you have any suggestions? I'm new to this but my understanding is that whatever new display I get would have to somehow plug into the data communicator from the title force motor which I fear the connection may be quite old. I'm really not sure?
 
Stotheu said:
BUT... Yesterday I did that jumper thing and bypassed terminal a and am now using terminal B and the bike is working fine and is not shutting down.! I am still not able to read the battery but the truth is this battery lasts for approximately 3 to 4 hours which is far longer than I typically ride especially when I'm with my son. This will work for now as the motor works perfectly fine but ultimately I will investigate getting a new display that can read the battery. Do you have any suggestions? I'm new to this but my understanding is that whatever new display I get would have to somehow plug into the data communicator from the title force motor which I fear the connection may be quite old. I'm really not sure?
Click to expand...

Great job on sorting out the jumper! :mrgreen: That is the best solution IMO, and you can feel relieved that you weren't having a problem, the front battery was simply timing out as it is programmed to do. With the jumper installed the front battery is completely disconnected, so you can make the bike 35lbs lighter by replacing the front wheel with a regular bike wheel. Note that doing so will make the bike less balanced/sure-footed, although more agile.

You will not get the dashboard's battery meter to work with an aftermarket battery - it is controlled by the proprietary BMS (battery management system) in the front hub battery via its data cable, but that data cable was disconnected to install the jumper. The other data cable, the one from the motor, needs to stay plugged into the dashboard to get throttle signal etc but does not measure battery. However, an aftermarket meter is easy to install, and it does not use that old TF data wiring at all. Most of the people here use a product called a CycleAnalyst.

Since the battery is lasting for so long, you may not need a meter to monitor it, assuming you charge it up between rides. More data is always nice though, so if you do want a meter, I would recommend a CycleAnalyst In the CA-SA version. Click here to see the eBikes.CA product page. This "SA" (standalone) version comes with a shunt (the part the measures volts/amps coming from the battery) that plugs into the power wires between the battery and the TF motor. You would need to install connectors on either side of the shunt that match the power plugs on your battery, and that is Everything you need to have it measure your battery usage.

If you also want to use the CA as a speedometer, it comes with a magnet the mounts on a wheel spoke, and a cable with a sensor that counts each time the magnet goes by. Installation is as simple as wire-tying the sensor to the front fork. Note that the CA is a versatile device with all sorts of extra connections you will not need on the TF, like a throttle connection coming from the shunt, and a lot of other connectors on the display, but they are optional and the CA works fine with them hanging loose.


Are you able to run the bike in Turbo mode at this point?

-JD
 
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