Spoke Washers? (redux)

[NorCalTuna]

Is it dangerous to run enough (aluminum) washer to mate a 6mm hole in a rim with a 4mm nipple? The wheel has dished spoke holes, and I'm imagining the aluminum washer deforming into the gap.

am I nuts?

thanks

 

[amberwolf]

Yes. To both questions. :lol:

If the washers were thick steel ones, then maybe it'd be ok, but aluminum washers are going to deform or worse they will just crack and split suddenly, and you'll be left with nothing holding your nipples.

The spoke that happens to will no longer be under tension, and the ones around it will now be increased tension. Their washers are then that much more likely to break, and then you quickly reach the point where enough spokes come off the rim to leave you without an actual wheel, and it will collapse, with you spilled on the road.


A similar but possibly less likely to fail scenario is if you had the spoke heads at the spoke flanges on the hub (rather than the nipples on the rim) being washered for size mismatch. But even this will still fail without steel washers; I used thin brass ones and did not even get the wheel tensioned much less trued and definitely not even on the bike yet before it began popping heads thru the spoke flange holes, destroying the spoke heads in the process.

See here for pics:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326088#p326088

 

[liveforphysics]

No aluminum.

Use stainless steel washers.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Use Brass washers. it's either a #8 or a #10 washer, I forget which, and it's a perfect fit.
The nipples are likely chrome plated brass, so the washer will deform at the same rate as the nipple, ensuring they maintain the same tension.

I've done this on a bunch of rims. the spokes need a little more attention the first 500 miles to keep them tight, but after they seat in fully, there's no trouble with them.

 

[John in CR]

Isn't upgrading the spokes to a larger size that properly fits the rim the correct solution?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Depends on the situation. If the hole is drilled for 12 guage, and he wants stronger, lighter, or better spokes, then probably not. Not much available in quality 12g spokes at the moment. None of the major spoke manufacturers areselling 12g. The Phill wood spoke threader doesn't currently offer a 12 guage die last time I checked, so threads have to be cut, not rolled. 14 guage usualy is the upgrade, as a quality 14g like a DT swiss is far stronger than the craptastical 12g that may wheel builders are forced to use.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I offer quality 12ga in whatever length is needed, so there are options.

I would agree that it is better to use the proper size nipple in the first place. I am assuming that he is using a motorcycle rim that is made for either 11 or 10ga.

 

[vanilla ice]

Wouldn't something shaped like this be ideal.. I have a pack of the brass washers if I need em for a lace but this seems better.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Yeah, those would be better than just plain washers. What are those, grommets?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Wouldn't something shaped like this be ideal.. I have a pack of the brass washers if I need em for a lace but this seems better.

Those do look better. can you get a spoke wrench on the flats with one of those on it?
whats the name and sorce of thise? I might try them next time.

 

[amberwolf]

They look like lacing eyelets for shoes or leatherwork, before the tool is used to crimp them down around the hole in the leather.

 

[vanilla ice]

Amber is right.. that is leather in the background. I've never tried it, don't have any, just seen them and thought the shape made more sense. You can get the flat brass ones for like a dollar for fifty from McM.. I got to see how much these are.

 

[NorCalTuna]

To fill a little more info in, my front hub is fork specific and has 14 ga holes. My wheel is 6 mm, as it's uhh, a moped wheel. Thats why I'm stuck with the little nipples. I like the bushing Idea, I like it a lot.

I wonder if there's some little part from mc master carr...

 

[johnrobholmes]

Is the nipple hole 6mm on the rim? Sounds like 12ga spokes would be better suited for the rim. Drilling out your hub .3mm is much safer than using washers in this case. I have done this quite a few times, I lace up moped rims into weird stuff quite often. Let me know if you need any resources or help.

 

[NorCalTuna]

I appreciate that JRH! I'm thinking I'm going to pull the project out of the LBC as they're unwilling to even entertain drilling the hub... I'll post some pics and talk to my fab guy and see what the weather brings. The other thought I had was having larger nipples made up.

 

[The Stig]

THREAD DIG!


I need washers to put between 12ga niples(4.95mm OD under the head) and an aluminum rim that will be drilled out to 5mm at the angle the spokes will be laced. The rim is double walled so the washers need to have an OD of 8mm or less to fit past the first wall of the rim... (I doubt it would be better to drill out the outer wall of the rim)

Either I hunt for the ideal hardware store brass washer/auto store aluminum washers in the area or I get proper rim washers real fast... I just want the strongest, lowest maintenance rim, for low cost. noise and weight aren't of much concern.


Any sources for specifically 12ga rim washers in the north east or Boston? Or anywhere for that matter?

 

[The Stig]

here are some potential candidates. The finish washer on the right is a bit bigger then the hole in the outer wall of the rim. Both washers have an ID that's a bit too small

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding sizes of washers, #6 is just small enough to not have typical spoke heads pass thru them, but not small enough to actually use--under tension the heads will deform the washers and pull thru anyway. They *might* work for some spoke nipples though.

#8 would probably be too big for the nipples, and is definitely too big for the heads.

#4 might be small enough for the heads but I think they'd still be too big.

#2 is probably a perfect fit, but I haven't found either #2 or #4 locally to try them. I dunno if the odd# sizes exist but if they do maybe they would work even better.

(I tried the #6 on a Crystalyte HS3540 hubmotor, using the Grin Tech Sapim spokes, because the flange holes on the HS are HUGE and can pass the whole spoke head right thru them. With the washers it's a little better, but I can only lace the wheel with the heads out on the flange, not heads-in like I wanted to for a "wider stance" of the spokes for what should be better side-loading ability.)


Oh, also, stainless washers bend pretty easily, so I'd recommend heavy duty ones, like the Grade 8 or something.

 

[The Stig]

hmmm... I think I ended up using #10 SAE washers because the inside Dia of them is 5.5mm and the shafts of my 12ga nipples were 5mm. The wheel is built and looking good, MAC hub, 100mm Wide rims, 12ga spoke in a 1-cross pattern and crossed over from left to right. All black!

 

[amberwolf]

Yeah, if you have really big spoke nipples then using those washers for the rim sounds good.


In my case I'm not worried aobut the rim (couldn't fit washers inside the holes of the doublewall anyway), but rather the head end at the spoke flange on the rim.

 

[The Stig]

yeah, I wasn't sure what spoke head meant.

I was just over at your other thread, and yeah some of those washers under the spoke heads look a bit iffy.

Maybe you could double up on this type of countersunk washer. That way you would still maintain the same bend in the spokes leading up to the head, but you would still have thicker material holding onto the spoke heads.

 

[speedmd]

http://www.chickencycles.co.uk/index.php?cat=22&sub=83

they got them and the mating nips !

cheers

 

[The Stig]

I think we were talking about the spoke heads (hub end) not the nipples?

 

[speedmd]

Hi Stig

Got it, the first item on the link I attached is for the swagged head end of the spokes. Sold in lots of 500.

cheers!