"Spontaneous" Combustion of Li Ion Cells

YoshiMoshi

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I'm a bit paranoid with lithium ion cells and don't want to charge or discharge them unattended, like when I'm several miles away from them.

What causes cells to combust? Obviously short circuiting and overcharging. If I have a cell not charging or discharging, is "spontaneous" combustion possible. Meaning like an overcharged cell doesn't explode until several hours afterwards, so even if it's not charging or discharging it can explode later on?

I've also seen power tool packs explode on YouTube in the back of someone's truck unattended in a fire safety video. I don't know if storing batteries in an enclosed metal box (a vehicle) can result in combustion because it gets really hot in the summer?

I think storing cells not charging or discharging in a dry cool place s relatively safe thing to do and should not result in combustion?
 
Nice article detailing the many possible failure modes and safety factors:
Grin’s perspective of Ebike fires

The interior of a metal box in summer can exceed the safe max temperature of lithium cells for sure. A car can reach ~200F inside, but around 150F is where thermal runaway can happen with a lithium battery.

Lithium cells are inherently dangerous if the quality of manufacture or pack assembly is low, the chance for a random explosion is never zero, but for low quality packs, it's a lot higher what it would be for high quality packs.

Certain chemistries of lithium batteries are WAY less likely to explode in any condition, like lifepo4. Of course, none of these are installed in your common ebike unless you bought a rare Chinese ebike.
 
I'm a bit paranoid with lithium ion cells and don't want to charge or discharge them unattended, like when I'm several miles away from them.

What causes cells to combust? Obviously short circuiting and overcharging. If I have a cell not charging or discharging, is "spontaneous" combustion possible. Meaning like an overcharged cell doesn't explode until several hours afterwards, so even if it's not charging or discharging it can explode later on?

I've also seen power tool packs explode on YouTube in the back of someone's truck unattended in a fire safety video. I don't know if storing batteries in an enclosed metal box (a vehicle) can result in combustion because it gets really hot in the summer?

I think storing cells not charging or discharging in a dry cool place s relatively safe thing to do and should not result in combustion?
A complete short circuit decomposing or even igniting the electrolyte, is usually the biggest risk when it comes to lithium-ion cell destruction.

In most cases, treating the cells decently will never result in such failures.
 
Unit pack power & friends ignored all kinds of warnings to increase the safety of their designs before the hammer came down on them. Including on here.

Not surprised that the lawmen intervened TBH, these crappy batteries can do a lot of property damage!
 
I recall one reputable poster on ES , had a new , unused , lipo pack (RC) , spontaneously combust whilst resting on a bench with other similar packs !.. No explanation ever found.
“ Dendrites” is a failure excuse often proposed .
Yikes.

So what is the best and safest way to store cells? Given that some can spontaneously combust for no reason?
 
I recall one reputable poster on ES , had a new , unused , lipo pack (RC) , spontaneously combust whilst resting on a bench with other similar packs !.. No explanation ever found.
“ Dendrites” is a failure excuse often proposed .

I had a RC lipo go off on me from being abused during shipping. Luckily i got smoke out, not fire.
 
I have my bare cells stored outside in a BBQ grill at the 30% state of charge required for shipping (3.4V/cell). I have seen some of them hold close to that voltage for years (since 2021). I don't know if 30% charge is enough to go into thermal runaway, but these cells have vents, so I would hope they vent before they get too hot,

I store my batteries at 30% too. Likewise, batteries hold their charge, but I do make sure the BMS doesn't drain them,
 
Yes, the little 4s RC lipo pack was just sitting there for at least a month on a table with each pack spaced apart about 5" after I checked a new shipment of 20 packs for balance. It was in our fan ventilated guest house that no one but me entered, so I know for a fact that they were undisturbed. I was just lucky that I didn't trust any RC lipo pack until I've used them for some cycle, which is why I had the packs spaced apart, and thermal runaway isn't too big a deal with just four 5ah cells as long as there's ventilation for the smoke.

LFP explained that what must have happened was a tiny bit of grit or whatever got in one of the layers during manufacture and eventually it lead to a microscopic reaction creating a short or local temperature change that led to thermal runaway. While my event was quite rare, my research turned up other such incidents, so it's not unique. No doubt most lipo fires are due to human mistakes and/or charger failures, but the "I've had lots of lipo packs and nothing ever happened, so they must be safe." attitude is one that can get you killed. I still have several kwh of lipo, but they're stored or unattended while on a bike in a place where they can do no real harm, but especially considering their relatively short life I won't be buying any more.

Note that this is a repeat of the info, the original post was several years before but I didn't find it in my quick search (i stopped when I found this one).
 
I'm a bit paranoid with lithium ion cells and don't want to charge or discharge them unattended, like when I'm several miles away from them.

What causes cells to combust? Obviously short circuiting and overcharging. If I have a cell not charging or discharging, is "spontaneous" combustion possible. Meaning like an overcharged cell doesn't explode until several hours afterwards, so even if it's not charging or discharging it can explode later on?

I've also seen power tool packs explode on YouTube in the back of someone's truck unattended in a fire safety video. I don't know if storing batteries in an enclosed metal box (a vehicle) can result in combustion because it gets really hot in the summer?

I think storing cells not charging or discharging in a dry cool place s relatively safe thing to do and should not result in combustion?
There are a lot of failure mechanisms that can lead to a cell catching fire. Not all of them occur right after some noticeable abuse. For example, a cell with an internal short circuit can sit right at the point where the exothermic reactions cause just enough heat to keep things “smouldering” internally until a different density area is reached, or a different level of electrolyte is present, and suddenly the reactions flare up and you get full thermal runaway (fire, smoke, possible cell bursting).

Common? No, incredibly rare. But the (literally) billions of cells that don’t catch fire aren’t talked about. 🙂

The lowest temp I’ve ever seen for runaway is for LCO chemistry cells (typically “LiPo”) and that’s about 130°C internally. The ”standard“ round cell li-ion chemistries, NMC and NCA won’t go into runaway until wayyyyyy over 200°C. I’ve brought standard chemistry round cells to over 100°C hundreds of times without problems. Pouch “LiPo” cells are different, some are pretty low quality cells...stay under 60°C and assume a fire can happen at any time.

But for most li-ion cells it all gets started at about 75°C where the electrolyte starts to decompose and generate excess gas. Any heat just from those reactions is easily dissipated unless the cell is being brutally discharged and overheating. So this “low” temp is no problem, except for the additional damage/aging this causes.

As the temp gets higher and higher you get more reactions occurring like the plastic separator between positive and negative melting at 105°C-115°C. Once that happens you can get an internal short circuit and the exothermic reactions get going. If the heat from these is not dissipating quickly enough then the temp keeps rising until the thermal runaway (decomposition) temp of the cathode material is reached and the cell catches fire.

Sooooo....a hot box or car shouldn’t cause a cell fire unless there’s internal damage or connected electronics (BMS, whatever) gets fried and causes current to flow and heats up the cell. But we can’t see inside our cells or easily detect impending shorts so the general advice is to avoid higher temps. Keeps the cells from aging faster too.

Overcharging can cause enough damage to, maybe, possibly, cause a fire some time later. Again, verrrrrry uncommon. But not impossible. The vast majority of fires occur during charging, use, or abuse. Not hours later. So always stick around during charging.

Internal defects can lead to a fire with some vibrations/shocks. Incredibly rare with quality cells from one of the big manufacturers. Can definitely happen with crappy “commodity” LiPo’s or round cells from the smaller China factories.

Cool storage (in a non-flammable location) is good as it lowers risks and extends cell life. But it can never be counted on to eliminate the tiny, tiny, TINY chance that the cell could go into runaway sitting there. But ALWAYS assume you’ll be the one-in-a-million to get a fire. The odds are tiny but the consequences are huge.

It’s like seat belts and air bags. We don’t have them because we know we’re going to crash. We have them for the tiny chance we might crash and because the consequences of the crash can be huge without that protection.
 
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I have my bare cells stored outside in a BBQ grill at the 30% state of charge required for shipping (3.4V/cell). I have seen some of them hold close to that voltage for years (since 2021). I don't know if 30% charge is enough to go into thermal runaway, but these cells have vents, so I would hope they vent before they get too hot,

I store my batteries at 30% too. Likewise, batteries hold their charge, but I do make sure the BMS doesn't drain them,
They can certainly go into runaway but there is MUCH less energy available for the reactions so they will be milder and at a lower overall temperature.
 
Yikes.

So what is the best and safest way to store cells? Given that some can spontaneously combust for no reason?
30% charge level or so.
Room temp or cooler.
Ventilated, non-flammable container+location where huge volumes of incredibly toxic smoke won’t be much of a problem.
Sealed container = pipe bomb.
Separate all packs so one on fire can‘t ignite all of them. Remember, cells and burning ejecta can be flying everywhere.
 
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I have my bare cells stored outside in a BBQ grill at the 30% state of charge required for shipping (3.4V/cell). I have seen some of them hold close to that voltage for years (since 2021). I don't know if 30% charge is enough to go into thermal runaway, but these cells have vents, so I would hope they vent before they get too hot,

I store my batteries at 30% too. Likewise, batteries hold their charge, but I do make sure the BMS doesn't drain them,
The lower the SOC, the better for battery lifetime (calendar life) and the better for safety.

It's for 2 reasons: the amount of available electrochemical energy is lower, and the cathodes become much more stable.

I believe I've shared a paper in this forum at some point, but at 0-5% SOC, the decomposition temperature for NMC811 materials is around 900C :)
 
I believe I've shared a paper in this forum at some point, but at 0-5% SOC, the decomposition temperature for NMC811 materials is around 900C :)
I looked around but couldn’t find your post mentioning a paper that would cover this. Do you have a link?

I ask because AFAIK the decomposition temps for the high-NI cathode materials like NMC811 aren’t very dependent on SOC. At any SOC level you start to get exothermic oxygen release at some point above 200°C and by 300°C that cell is in a lot of trouble.

The temperature-of-reaction of the material in runaway can certainly reach 900°C but that’s typically, IIRC, for higher SOC’s…hence my confusion. Thanks!
 
I've mentioned it before, but I keep my assembled packs in a galvanized foot locker. The lid latches securely but is loose enough to allow venting. You can get them on Ebay. I do have loose cells around that I keep at 50% just in cardboard parts boxes sorted by capacity. Remember people, 18650s have been used in laptops for many many years with no issues and most of those are left plugged in all the time.

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True, but the charger is disconnected (no current flow) in probably all of those laptops when charging is done.
They cycle after hitting 100%. The pack drops to 95% and the charger turns on again until it reaches 100% then turns off again. Rinse and repeat indefinitely. It surprised me we haven't seen more instances of the charger or pack BMS failing.
 
They cycle after hitting 100%. The pack drops to 95% and the charger turns on again until it reaches 100% then turns off again. Rinse and repeat indefinitely. It surprised me we haven't seen more instances of the charger or pack BMS failing.
Ahhh….forgot about that. Thank you.
Might be a long time between the “topping off” cycles (depending on the cell) but it still keeps the cell at a very high SOC which is never good.
 
Hmm...how full do laptops keep their cells?

I checked once a loooong time ago, on an old HP laptop, but I have long forgotten what readings I got, and things may have changed since then (at least 15 years ago?).
 
Hmm...how full do laptops keep their cells?

I checked once a loooong time ago, on an old HP laptop, but I have long forgotten what readings I got, and things may have changed since then (at least 15 years ago?).
4.15-4.2v, depending on the brand.
 
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