Start up speed problem.

[alsmith]

Controller- 18 FET Lyen Edition; 36V 15Ah LiFePO4 (two)
Crystalyte 5303 front hub motor.

I'm just after a little advice /pointers please- I have a problem that seems the reverse of what you'd usually see.

I've had a problem for a couple of years where the bike doesn't properly respond to the throttle when first switched on. It did sometimes give up to full throttle but this seems to have stopped now. This didn't seem to happen for the first 6 months or so.
It gives what seems to be very little power (sometimes nothing, sometimes about 20%) when first switched on. The power slowly builds up and usually after about a mile there's full throttle available as normal.
The only thing that sometimes seems to help is unplugging the battery, then reconnecting it when it sometimes gives a bit of power, sometimes just the same as before is connecting/ reconnecting. It used to occasionally make full power available when doing this, but not now.
I hadn't asked earlier because I thought it might be related to the 45A powerpole connectors (although the controller is set to a 30A maximum) and I could hear the crack of the spark when connecting the battery and even see where arcing was affecting the contacts (36V 12Ah LiFePO4).
However I just changed all of those connectors to the physically much larger Powerpole SB50's which use the same connector as the 75Amp PP7 connector and checked all of the connections and I'm still getting the same thing- low power for the first mile or so.
I've also just fitted a new battery (36V 15Ah) and the same is happening.

I recently opened the controller to fit the wheel lock Edward Lyen gave info about and while I had the board out I had a look but couldn't see anything that looks like it's been damaged while in there.

Ed Lyen gave some things to try (disconnect CA, change throttle, disconnect 3 speed switch, disconnect cruise control) but no joy.

Any ideas?
Thanks

 

[dogman dan]

No power and never changes would make sense. Any chance this is happening when it's cold? The the battery warms itself as you get going?

That's the only situation I've seen the same kind of thing on my bikes. But I was seeing this in january, a battery chilled to about 20F by riding on the front of a bus for 8 miles. Then poor power for the first mile, followed by some improvement as the battery thawed itself just a little better.

 

[wesnewell]

I'd check the easy stuff first like phase and halls for good connections and proper operation. Next I'd look at the caps.being weak or bad solder joints.

 

[John in CR]

Sounds like a weak connection or wire somewhere in the main power wires. Symptoms don't sound like those typical of a bad phase. Check the easy stuff first, but it could be anywhere from inside the battery all the way to a dry solder connection on the controller board.

 

[alsmith]

Thanks guys. I'll try the dry joint theory first, it sounds as if that could be the problem.

 

[alsmith]

I got onto the bike today and went nowhere when the throttle was opened.
I've checked the batteries are charged, checked wiring for loose connections, disconnected the CA, disconnected the cruise control- no joy.
When the throttle is opened after switching on the CA reads up to 30-40 Amps for a second but it quickly settles back down to no current without the wheel turning.
I can start the wheel moving by hand but it feels rough like a phase not working. Iv'e only only ran it for a second or two then stopped but it won't turn on the throttle again.

Is there anything else worth trying? I was hoping to put off doing the controller until the weather gets bad, but it seems the bike doesn't want me to wait.

 

[dogman dan]

Starting to look like something cooked. Do the usual tests for bad halls, controller shorted fets etc.

 

[alsmith]

Controller out, nothing looks burned or broken. I've just dug out Lyens tester and going to read the destructions then check the halls.....

 

[alsmith]

Quick question before I start- it's not in the Lyen manual but I assume that the controller should be switched on and be connected to the battery and motor for testing? Or can the motor or wheel be tested unconnected to anything? I know that the throttle will be unconnected but I don't want to add add to any problems....

Thanks

 

[alsmith]

Just got through checking. No lights at all on for the FET checks. I checked the extension cable from the motor to the controller- OK.
Then I looked at the small 5 pin plug on the cable coming out of the motor- it seems that's the source of the problem. The wires onto the pins were twisted and a few broken at the joint to the pins. The cable holding grip was not screwed on and the screws had about 5 mm to go before they would have gripped the cable, it was only held in place by the black shrinkwrap covering the connector so they have eventually pulled loose.
I probably added to it when taking the cover off, but hopefully it's the problem.

Anyhow, has anyone got which colour wire goes to which pin? Only 2 were left with wire on with color to id the connections (black and pale blue). The colours floating loose are.

What's the name of this type of connector? I think pin 2 is the black, 5 is the pale blue. It looks a good one but the pins and spacings are small- does it get changed to a different type by owners?
Are the crystalyte 5300 hall colours a straight match to the colours used for the Lyen 18FET controller ( black-black, red-red, green-green, yellow-yellow, blue-blue) via the connecting cable that has all grey wires?
I'm hoping that this hasn't shorted and damaged the hall sensors or the controller.

edit
Found a pic of the connectors. What are they called? thanks

 

[dogman dan]

Bet that's been your problem. Intermittent poor halls connections.

 

[alsmith]

Bet that's been your problem. Intermittent poor halls connections.

I hope!

Ed Lyen (thanks!) sent a link to the wiring of that 5 pin plug - and thanks to ebikessf.com who have lots of useful info about connection colours/types.

 

[alsmith]

After repairing the wiring the tester shows one phase (green) not working- possibly caused by the loose wires.

Any recommendations on the best kind of puller (10" diameter hub) needed to get into the motor? Would a 2 leg be ok, or is a 3 leg much better? (Sadly I used to own one that I used on clutches and drum brakes but no longer.......)

I'm sure I've seen a guide to changing the halls so I'll have a hunt around for it.

edit- struggling to find a puller of that size- any suggestions? I'll try the local car shops to see if I can hire one big enough.

 

[wesnewell]

I've removed a couple of covers. I just used some big screwdrivers around the edges. Can't remember if I used 3 or 4.

 

[alsmith]

Thanks, I'll give it a go.

 

[alsmith]

I just got an email from Crystalyte Europe about wiring from the motor to the 5 pin hall connector. My motor has been wired incorrectly from new with pin 4 and pin 5 wires the wrong way round.
I suppose I now know why I ended up trying the different phase connection to get it working.

I've got as far as getting one side cover off and need to split the rotor and stator to get to the halls. I had a quick try but it's got a good hold. I'll get a better go at it later.

 

[alsmith]

I got the stator out after a couple of tries. I found if I stood on the rim it came almost out but the magnets kept a good hold - but if you hold the rotor as it comes out and continue pulling as the stator is coming up it pulls away quite easily! The halls are well hidden under an off white adhesive so I can't see which colour wire goes to which hall. Time to dig them all out!

 

[alsmith]

Thanks for your help!

I've eventually got the halls changed and the motor is working again It took longer than I'd though because I checked every connection during the repair and changed the bearings- both had corrosion on the inside faces and were a loose fit in the housings (wire side inner face, other side was the outer face).

Unfortunately I'm getting the same problem of lower power on start up which lasts for the first mile or so. After checking every connection during the work it seems that the source must be something in the controller. It's strange because I would think that problems would come after components heated up. I couldn't see anything that looked like a dry joint while it was open but does anyone have any suggestions before I get the board out and resolder every joint- or particular areas to focus on when resoldering?

 

[Drunkskunk]

This sounds suspiciously like a throttle problem to me.

But I recently had a problem with a controller that had corosion on some connectors. Everything tested fine but it's wouldn't run the motor. I had a hall/throttle/motor testor and it showed everything was good, but still the motor wouldn't work.

Part of the problem was corrosion under the main phase wire Anderson connector crimp. It would pass voltage but not enough current. I might never have found that one except I decided to try new conenctors. replacing the connector solved that part of the issue.

For the rest of it I soaked every connector in Margarita mix. The low grade citric acid ate off the corosion, and a good rinse in rubbing alcohol cleaned it up just fine.

 

[alsmith]

I think I've now tried everything to get to the source of this ages, trying swapping things over, different components, different batteries, changing halls, rewiring, not connecting cycle analyst, cruise control etc but still get this problem (motor runs on less than full throttle for the first mile or so, gradually picking up pace. Sometimes the motor barely turns, switching off and back on gives the lower power so I can ride - maybe 10mph).
I emailed Ed Lyen before christmas and waiting for a reply but the only thing left that I can think of that's left is a problem with the controller- maybe a dry joint. I haven't changed it from the original settings but reprogrammed it with these at Ed Lyens suggestion.

So I think its maybe time to try prayer.... maybe resoldering the bits that might cause this issue - any hints on where to try?

Any further suggestions welcomed, or which areas of the controller to look at? In other words - HELP

 

[alsmith]

The bike died a few days ago
An occasional jerk from the wheel when the throttle applied, but nothing else. It was extremely hard to push, with a resistance from the motor whether turned on or off, and whether the battery was connected or not. I had to push home in two goes, with a few days rest in between- spondylosis and myalgia absolutely aching like crazy.
It was still running slowly (low power) for the first mile or so following the hall replacement in November.
I ran the Lyen tester- the motor checks out as ok. The problem is identified by the timing leds. One is permanently lit, with 3 coming on at a time, at one of the positions one led is lit more faintly than the others. One of the phase (green) wire spade connectors has obviously overheated- it looks blackened by heat and the cable connectors insulator has melted. It hasn't shorted out against anything. The circuit board itself doesn't have any obvious signs of problems.

I emailed Ed Lyen a couple of days ago (awaiting reply) because I really need this to be reliable, and running a 5302 crystayte with your 18fet controller at 36V shouldn't be stressing anything- I would have expected it all to be reliable which is what I need. Hopefully he can identify and sort out the slow running problem as well as anything that's happened to the FET's.

 

[alsmith]

The controller should be with Ed Lyen now for repair (sent 21st Feb)- testing showed a problem with the FET's.
I would have replaced them myself but this is the ideal opportunity to get him to trace the cause of this low power startup for the first mile I've had from almost new.

Also the female spade connector on the green phase wire was blackened with the insulator almost totally gone- what's left is burned black- it is totally blackened on the inside part of the connector itself,and the small brass sprung part that makes sure that the male connector connects properly is loose inside the connector (I've not been able to get a decent pic of it) noticed when comparing it to the other connectors. I'm not sure if this is a cause or a symptom though- probably just a symptom though.

I know Ed Lyen is always busy but I'm hoping he gets a chance to look at it quite quickly and he can find/sort the problems- I'm lost without the bike!

 

[alsmith]

Just a quick post to say I got my controller back today.

Big thanks go to Ed Lyen (again!) who did tests, video'ed a run showing the working controller, along with other help!

I think that the root of the problem was a faulty female spade connector! All connectors had been looked at but seemed ok at past checks but this time the connector was darkened with a blackened insulator. There is a separate sprung part inside the large connectors that is meant to ensure proper contact is maintained- looking closely at it revealed that the sprung part was loose and rattling around when moving the connector.
I've never looked at those things so closely!