Stealth Bomber goes Adaptto at 12kW

[biknut]

Thanks Allex, I've going to study this thread for a while.

 

[morati]

Allex, your Bomber is incredible. I'm jealous!!!

 

[SamM]

What is the price of the Adaptto Maxx-E controller?

SamM

 

[Allex]

Did PM you about the price.
Thx Morati

 

[ridethelightning]

really great thread allex.
very helpfull for people who want to take it to the next level

 

[stompatompa]

Very nice build Allex!
The adapto seems very impressive, the Russians know`s their stuff. It`s definitely something to concider for the next build.
I just love the contrast you get with the Bomber in thesame picture as the two russian bikes

 

[Allex]

A 230km long trip from Moscow to Countryside. Testing out the new batteries
I meet up with the guys at 3:45
Thx ivanovlev for the video!
[youtube]IexI4chx9us[/youtube]

 

[izeman]

you did this monster trip with ONE charge?? massive ...

 

[Allex]

Well I only have 2300Whs so I would need to charge
But Ivanovlev has 4840wh so he can Easily do 240km in one.

 

[macribs]

Cool trip bro.
240 km in 1 charge, wonder what is the weight of his battery pack?

 

[Allex]

Yeah was quite fun!
Check this:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27911&start=150#p890179
440pks, 22s20p, 95v 60ah ~4840wh
Around 22kg of battery

 

[Allex]

Ok time to change that bad cell again.
I cut the nickel strip with Dremel, for me, this is the easiest and the safest way to do.



The cells are glued together with hot glue, how to remove one cell in the middle? Heat it up with Soldering Iron, no worries, it is dead and garbage material anyway.

View attachment 2

When you get it hot enough, the glue melts and you can push it out.



Make sure that the new cell has the same voltage as the rest of them in the parallel group and connect them all with Copper wire or similar.
Done! The pack is back in action again. Yes, I wish I had a spot welder.

 

[biknut]

Allex, I assume charging your battery pack is a lot more complicated than the stock battery? With this set up you don't use BMS?

 

[ridethelightning]

nicely done Allex. easy out, easy in

 

[Allex]

Cheers Mr Ride!

TV:
I sure am, I have the a BMS. Charging a battery is just as simple as the stock setup.
1. Plug in the charger to a socket
2. Plug in the other end to the bike.
3. Controller starts to count down minutes when it is ready and you can see it on the display.


Here is the main screen during a charge.


And this is the BMS working, I have a good overview of all cells and can instantly see which one is not well.
This hardware is really something!

 

[Samer]

HI Allex how many bad cell you had so far?

 

[Allex]

Two out of 280.

 

[madin88]

great job. i very like the neutrik powercon / speakon connector system as use for charging.
0-50kmh in 2sec is awesome. was this close before you got thrown off, or is there room for even harder acceleration?


Its a pity already two cells went bad after a few cycles. that does not speak for the LG HE2. Of course only if they got not damaged due to this bad ass spot welder.
did you check if those stinkers got leaky at the spots? pull off the nickel tab should show this. And do you charge to 100% 4,2V or a bit below, and what cut off voltage?

recently i had a conversation with a german battery manufactuer and i asked him why he only offers Sony and Panasonic cells, and not the LG HE2 or Samsung 25R for high power packs.
he answered the best cells come from Japan and the worst from China. The other asia manufacturers are somewhere in between. He have seen and got back many dead ebike batteries, but almost never packs with Sony or Panasonic cells and he assumes this is the same with the newer cells, but it also could be things have changed now.

in my cromotor bike i have a soldered 22s9p pack made of Sony VTC4. some of the cells got really hot when i was soldering the wires to the cans.
i was a bit afraid some could have beed damaged because of the heat, but after 60 full cycles and many cycles in the range of 40-70 to 90% without balancing the drift over the entire pack is still below 6mV (measured with Junsi Cell Log)
that shows the spreading and quality of those Sony cells is really outstanding.

 

[Allex]

Thx, powercon have two tabs and speakon four. This is why I decided to go for the speakon, more contact area - less heat if I solder negative on two tabs and positive on the other two compared to only one tab for negative/positive with the powercon.
That video is old now I was testing it with 100DC Amps, I have yet to make a video with 150 DC Amps there is plenty of room!

I did not see any leaks from the cells. I guess I will have to wait and see how the pack will behave from now on, I hope that this is the last extraction job. But Andrey delivered me a few more cells, he has been really helpful!

How much do VTC4/5 go for today?

 

[madin88]

thx for the info about speakon, i thought they are similar.
charge to only 90-95% (4,1-4,15V) will enhance lifetime so i would suggest you try this out.

the sonys are currently very expensive because of delivery problems from what i know. better wait till they become affordable again.

 

[\/ampa]

recently i had a conversation with a german battery manufactuer and i asked him why he only offers Sony and Panasonic cells, and not the LG HE2 or Samsung 25R for high power packs.
he answered the best cells come from Japan and the worst from China. The other asia manufacturers are somewhere in between. He have seen and got back many dead ebike batteries, but almost never packs with Sony or Panasonic cells and he assumes this is the same with the newer cells, but it also could be things have changed now.

in my cromotor bike i have a soldered 22s9p pack made of Sony VTC4. some of the cells got really hot when i was soldering the wires to the cans.
i was a bit afraid some could have beed damaged because of the heat, but after 60 full cycles and many cycles in the range of 40-70 to 90% without balancing the drift over the entire pack is still below 6mV (measured with Junsi Cell Log)
that shows the spreading and quality of those Sony cells is really outstanding.

At least these cells made not burn Allex ebike down.
I still cant understand why these cells are also in the shipping regulations as a hazard. For RC lipo its understandable but not for these cells or lifepo4.
Regarding Japan cells are all good. Nonsense. Sony 18650 cells had also problems in the past.
Samsung is from south Korea not China. Never heard of problems with these cells.
Maybe LG does not make good QC or the dealer who sell them scammed Allex or they made failures on assembling.

Soldering to the can especially to the negative cell connection degrades the cell depending on heat input so u will maybe only experience a shorter pack life. Nothing measurable in the first 60 cycles.

I would call your conversation partner not that bright. :lol: Maybe he just gets a big discount on these and than tells you something from the horse.

 

[madin88]

Regarding Japan cells are all good. Nonsense. Sony 18650 cells had also problems in the past.

can you provide more details about the problems Sony had?

Soldering to the can especially to the negative cell connection degrades the cell depending on heat input so u will maybe only experience a shorter pack life. Nothing measurable in the first 60 cycles.

if some cells really got degraded (in my case that must be the p-bricks on which i soldered the wires to the cans), why it should not be noticeable in some kind of drift over entire pack between cylce 1 and cycle 60?

I would call your conversation partner not that bright. :lol: Maybe he just gets a big discount on these and than tells you something from the horse.

what know how do you have with those cells or whats your job which makes you claim this?

 

[\/ampa]

Regarding Japan cells are all good. Nonsense. Sony 18650 cells had also problems in the past.

can you provide more details about the problems Sony had?

Safety is a further concern, but this applies to all batteries. A one-in-200,000 failure triggered the recall of almost six million lithium-ion batteries in 2006. Sony, the manufacturer of these cells, said that on rare occasions microscopic metal particles may come into contact with other parts of the battery cell, leading to a short circuit than can cause venting with flame.

Source: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_of_lithium_ion_batteries

Soldering to the can especially to the negative cell connection degrades the cell depending on heat input so u will maybe only experience a shorter pack life. Nothing measurable in the first 60 cycles.

if some cells really got degraded (in my case that must be the p-bricks on which i soldered the wires to the cans), why it should not be noticeable in some kind of drift over entire pack between cylce 1 and cycle 60?

Maybe because all cells got basically the same heat damage.

I would call your conversation partner not that bright. :lol: Maybe he just gets a big discount on these and than tells you something from the horse.

what know how do you have with those cells or whats your job which makes you claim this?

I personally had only real life experience with RC lipo, Lifepo4 and these 25R cells.
It could also be a possible BMS failure from these rejected batteries which makes the Japan cell batteries look for your conversation partner a little better.

 

[Allex]

Madin I charge to 4,17 and go down to 3,1 If I need to
Most of the time I recharge at 3,6 or above. But you are right, they will have more cycles if I charge to only 4,1 or so.

 

[madin88]

Maybe because all cells got basically the same heat damage.

No, definitely not. in each pack (i have 3 x 6s and 1x 4s), four cells from the p-group on which i soldered the wires to the can got 2-3 times hotter than all the other ones.
these are the groups i worry about, but by now they do not show any abnormality.

I personally had only real life experience with RC lipo, Lifepo4 and these 25R cells.

oh, thats why you defend for samsung :lol:
maybe those 25R are the better choice, but who knows?
the Sonys are known to be one of the best cells when it comes to cell drift and many owners will confirm this. thats why i like and recommend them :wink: