Stealth/Raptor/Vector/home build

[Lurkin]

So the ebike bug has bitten hard, now on the pursuit of more power.

Debating the next move... really interested in something with power more comparable to a motorbike, given it will be used for a 80km commute each day.

Current bike is 250w and takes 1 1/2 on mostly bike trails to get home.

Intention with the next one will be to road register it here in Victoria, Australia and use it as a means to cut down the above time to work.

Obviously work will need to be done to ensure it can pass engineering (to get registration).

So far the pros and cons are:-

- the more established the bike producer, the more finished the bike can be/ easier to interpret product offering
- the more finished the bike is on arrival, the sooner compliance/riding it can commence
- the more established, the higher the price
- the less established, the more options available but the harder/longer it will be to finish the bike
- the more power, the increased chance of fire but the size of the grin is proportionate

Leaning towards a Vector frame of the three in title, vs buying a dirtbike, gutting and electrifying. Concerned the later option will be too hard without the ability to fabricate and weld/loads of electronic engineering experience. For the same reason, was consider a hub motor for simplicity rather than the other type that is mounted in the frame (not sure on the name, not a midmount but usually mounted in the same spot the petrol engine was removed from linked via chain).

Would be really interested for anyone's input into making this choice, particularly if you have attempted to register it/legalise it, and if so, particularly if it was done in Victoria.

 

[Lurkin]

Registering is too hard and is out.

Buying a finished product like the stealth is also out, due to inability to control cost, lump sum of $ required and lack of learning enough (wouldn't want to take it apart).

That leaves custom frame, downhill frame, Vector Frame, Raptor... Raptor is probably out due to cost. Downhill frame is probably out due to inability to easily store batteries/remove them...

Custom frame is out due to lack of workshop and expense.

Sooo.. looks like Vector frame it is.

Cheap fork located - RST R-One for AUD200. There are lighter options out there, but not for the same price....

 

[ziltoid81]

If you want it as cheap a possible but with great usability i would go for vector, mxus, mini-e, 25r.
If you want to commute, the mini will do the job.

I bought a raptor and regret it...to expensive and the vector is narrower and got way more room under the bb.....but mistakes are there to make them.

 

[Lurkin]

Haven't really gotten past investigating frame options. Build is limited by cashflow currently, which provides more time for making the frame choice.

A guy a work has offered to weld me up a frame... but I doubt he can do it, even in materials at USD625, Yeah, the Raptor frame was a bit of a pipe dream - just too expensive for me. Its a shame because they seem to be a pretty good product.

Just not sure about a custom BB and whether pedalling is really a reality with the Vector frame. Still haven't ruled out a downhill frame. Still leaning towards Vector or custom build because they would have a nice hole for housing everything in (batteries, controller etc), but the downhill frame is likely to win on availability and expense.

Just seems like a false economy if I want to expand battery capacity etc down the track.

I probably need to start making decisions about motor choice/battery choice to be able to really determine which frame is ideal. I suspect it will be a lot of work and research and will still end up at Vector.

I'm just not too sure what power to actually go for. I currently have a 250w Bafang joke... but actually I like the fact it still involves pedalling (using PAS) and if I want a workout, it's just a matter of trying to overtake at >33k/h (assist cuts out). I don't know how this compares to a hub motor... whether the experience per watt is about the same or one is more powerful than the other.

I want a bit extra speed - perhaps max of 50 km/h so it doesn't cut out halfway through overtaking someone on the bike trail, as it's just frustrating for both parties - the other guy sorta looks across like "run outta steam buddy?" Frankly it's annoying and kinda dangerous. It either needs to have range of about 100km - 120km without recharging (home and back) or 50 - 60 kms (just to work and then recharge).

I haven't decided what battery type as of yet. My current set up uses 18650 from Em3ev - no issues whatsoever. Considering a bigger pack of the same. Being wooed by Lipo cells due to power/rate/price ratios.. but probably need to sit down and actually go through the numbers to make a decision. May make a summary thread of other threads on there to make it more efficient to find information on battery choice.

 

[macribs]

You say you have a bike already. Are you pleased with that bike? Maybe use it as a donor bike? Or are you looking to ie full suspension bike?

If you are lucky to find a useful donor bike secondhand you could contact Samd here at the forum. An aussie that does framework.
He will weld you up a batterybox to a used frame for sure. I think he has one more thread about his builds but this was the one I found now. Just PM him and see if he can help you out. If you are lucky you can get a useful donor for cheap with working wheels, suspension etc. And just place a hubmotor in the rear wheel. If you think about it you might not even need a welded batterybox. You could do a low cost build with batteries in a triangle bag for the frame.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=56712

 

[Lurkin]

I am very pleased with it. It does what it's meant to do - be a relatively legal retrofitted mountain bike.

It's not appropriate for butchery really, which is what would be required for more power. I would rather leave it as it is or revert it to being the nice (newish) hardtail that it is. Besides, I need a reliable commute in the meantime.

I'm aware of Samd's work.. I'm not too keen on a customised frame that's less/untested by others - it's the advantage of choosing to go Vector. If I was to have a custom frame, I would be designing it myself and arranging someone local to build it so I can control the quality and make changes if need be. (local as in round the corner, rather than same state).

But I'm not an engineer or a fabricator. Frankly, I've seen a number of occasions where someones managed to get make a frame that 'works' and looks nice, but is really not that good at what it does. This is where the R&D of testing frames/products really adds value. It's not a cost (time or money) that I'm that able or willing to take. I've been really hoping to avoid it. (I'm picky... it would get very expensive).

If I went downhill frame, I don't think I would modify the frame, I would have to find a workaround. No where near as convenient as using a Vector frame and unlikely to have decent battery capacity. I'm not a fan of batteries in frame bags.

Hence, I think the decision will be Vector in the long run. Seems like I've made a decision on the frame. I also like the capacity and access of the Vector frame for batteries.

Next stop, motor, controller, crank, crank arms, wheel/tyre choice decisions.....

 

[macribs]

I think you just answered your own question. You know what you want - order a Vector and be done with it.
Or you could look at this limited time offering from E-kross. Same frame/swingarm as Vector. But with 50mm stator motor laced in moto wheel. Exact the same as Vector.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=68054

Btw - the work of Samd pretty much guarantee a fully working well balanced bike. He does not alter the frame geometry when doing the welds. So if you have a good riding donor bike your e-bike version will also handle well and come to think of it sad is using a pro welder btw. http://ballaratebikes.com/

I think Hyena, aussie as well have one of the samd frames (bottom one). Ask him what he thinks of the build. He is a well know es member.

 

[Lurkin]

I think the frame decision has been made. Just need cash to be able to fund it.

It's not as simple as 'keeping the bike geometry the same'. It just isn't.

So much weight is being added, it will definitely affect they way the suspension functions and the bike handles due to the addition/redistribution of weight. Literally just adding weight to convenient/ideal positions doesn't make it a good idea.... It can often have unexpected results. Not to mention computer modelling for stress testing etc... This is exactly what I mean by the outcomes that result without proper R&D testing... It's possible to get something that work, but will it be comfortable? will it handle like a pig? how long will it last? is it even strong enough? etc. etc.

I'm not questioning his ability to carry out the necessary welding or create something reasonably good. As I earlier noted, I am familiar with his work and it's quality - it's not what I'm concerned about. It's the design itself and what evidence I can find of it being tested (and not something similar. Exactly the same).

There's value in a tried and tested frame that takes a shedload of luck to achieve with a custom built frame... which I don't want to deal with. I've actually been down this road before with different projects - it was monstrously time consuming, expensive and the result was only marginally better than just paying more and buying something. Frankly, it was disappointing.

I'm trying to find things that have been done before, well for a reasonable price. I need to make a decision about how much power I actually need, what weight (approx) it will need to move etc. before I can make a motor decision (whilst that does seem to be a damn good price, I currently know little about hub motors, let alone high power ones). That will determine everything else, i.e. batteries, controller, rims/hubs, etc. I want to go less than more if possible - otherwise I'm just carrying additional weight and reducing range.

 

[striker54]

Lurkin, have you seen this offer: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=68054
It's at a very good price, IMO.
It's the same frame as vector, but other seller: http://evelbike.com/.

 

[macribs]

Well your mind is set and we know Vector has made good sales. They have tested, ridden, modeled and done it all.
If you get like a mxus 3K or QS v3 those are like 300 $ motors. If you can stand lipo you can get a 20s4p (84v20Ah) for about 500$.
I think any cheaper for such a long commute you will have to steal the parts

 

[Lurkin]

Yep. Macribs pointed that out to me earlier.

USD990 = ~AUD1,277.10.

USD625 = AUD806.85

The motor therefore costs

USD365 = AUD470.85

I'm really not too sure..

I would be better off to buy more locally than from overseas, given the exchange rate is really against me at the moment. I'm not too sure what that graphs actually telling. I get that motor is higher wattage/capable of higher speeds....

I was thinking more along the lines of http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/electric-bike-kits/1500w-electric-bike-kit-20ah-upgraded-by-dillenger.html given thats AUD1,500 (translates to USD ~1162) including battery and controller.... I liked the fact the cells are 18650, but it might be little sort on capacity....range is more important than speed. the choice of frame revolves around attempting to get decent battery capacity rather than going monster power (for now anyway).

Not sure. I also get that it would better the long run not to do things by half measures.. how do I know what wattage = what speed? i.e. whats the best way to choose a motor? I know very about what attributes are desirable from hub motors. I was looking for something with direct drive for regen and not necessarily motor power at this stage. It doesn't say the weight of that motor anywhere on there...

Has anyone had one and tested it? How does it compare to a Mxus etc?

I'm worried that either:-
- I get a monstrous/expensive build which is hopelessly overpowered and just wasteful vs
- going underpowered (again) and having to redo everything again at a later date.

Weight:-
Frame - 11kgs
Motor - 7.5kgs
battery - 7 kgs
Controller, wiring etc - 2 kgs
Suspension 4kgs
Me 110kgs
Bag 5 kgs

So it needs to be able to propel 150kgs (331 lbs) @ cruise of 35-40km/h (~22mph - 25mph) with bursts up to 50 - 60km/h (31 - 37mph). Any more than that is likely to be a waste.

Any recommendations on the minimum size motor which can realistically handle that form of load? (or is that what has already been suggested?)

 

[macribs]

I don't know about 1500watt. Seems kind of small for hub motor. And the battery pack at 48v?
If it was crank motor running the gears 1500 w would work but I think you are heading for costly upgrades going for that.

Btw the QS v3 motor have about 6kw continuous and peak 10+kw.
And you can have them lace it in a mtb wheel.

For sure nothing I can think of come close to that motor regarding price to power ratio.
QS 3000W 205 (50H) E-bike hub motor
extra/V3 type

Price is around US$279.8
plus shipping US$211

REad more http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972

If you are trying to keep cost low get that cheap QS 205 that is actually as strong as the cromotor. (It is in fact the same)
Don't think about 18650 cells because price is higher. You can have 500$ batterypack 20s20Ah of lipo. Add 625 for frame. And 300 motor. Then use whatever parts you have on your current bike for parts. You said your bike is great working condition.
Have your battery made first and do the swap of parts in a weekend. You could get to 30Ah for another 150 $ or so. Enough for back and forth to work without charging.

If your current bike has the part you need you will get a kickass high performing bike for less then 1.500 $.
If you need some other parts get second hand for cheap.

 

[Lurkin]

This is not a rushed project where I need to scrimp and save by scavenging bits from my other bike. Taking parts off it is not an option because I'll continue to ride it until this is complete. Thus, there's no rush and pinching parts off it is not an option. It will give me time to save for quality parts and build it in stages each month. It will also provide time to research all the parts to ensure I'll happy at the end with the choices both of quality and compromise on price.

4000w is 16 x the power I have now (250w).

1500w is 6x the power I have now.

... its still a massive jump in power for me. It may actually be enough, I don't know how to work this out.

What I don't know how to work out is the relationship between weight, power and speed. I.e. we know the weight and power, but not the resulting speed. I must have to vary the speed by varying the input power.

The thought of getting a motor designed to be used with the frame is attractive. I'm just not sure how much power I need. Then the question will be how efficient the proposed motor is and the best trade off on price. Lastly, what controller works best with it.

 

[macribs]

Kind of contradicting yourself now Lurkin. You have dismissed several options due to the costs.
And suddenly money is no problem?

You have already been down the underpowered route. Do yourself a favor and make sure that will not happen again.
As I read your posts you are looking for well proven yet affordable solutions. Go for QS. Cheap and powerful.
A 1500 $ 1500 w hub with low voltage battery? Again not much power. And more complicated and expensive to add cells to a 18650 pack then to a lipo pack.

It is your choice which way to lean. But I recommend you reading this thread from post #1 and out. And read it like you read other threads. Maybe then you see what I mean.

And btw - what is really overpowerd? Do people need 300+ HP diesel turbo for daily commute to work? Cos not. But it is damn nice if you are hauling a camper, or trying to pass some smock on the road. You fear too much power? QS or Mxus 3K and quality controller + lipo is more powerful and will cost you far less then that tiny 1500$ package deal you found.

And it is up to you how hard you crank the throttle

 

[Lurkin]

I have more than once already to see if I have not communicated effectively, given you keep suggesting the same thing.

Nowhere in this thread does it say I am will to take parts off my existing bike. It says the exact opposite. It's only mentioned because information was requested about it.

Nowhere in this thread does it suggest I have an issue with money. It isn't a problem per say.

I have said several times that motor wise, I only want to purchase something that is sufficient to commute on as 250w is piss weak. I am interested in a frame capable of much greater power in case it goes in a different direction in the future.

I have other projects and goals I am funding currently. I could redirect funds from them to this, but I would prefer not to. Rather, it will be drip fed over time. Thus, theres no rush or shortage of funds - I just don't want to purchase things that are beyond my requirements for the sake of a 'special'. I also noted the Dillenger example of a potential deal on a lower wattage package which (if sufficiently powered) could be appropriate and economic. As previously stated, I want tested options, which are appropriate and of a reasonable cost. Note this doesn't say the cheapest option. Other options have been dismissed due to cost because I do not perceive additional value for the increase in expense. Vector/Raptor choice is an example of this decision. I'm envisaging this happening over 6 months odd, if it goes longer, it goes longer.

The hard question is: how much power is sufficient? I have already stated I am unsure of how to answer this question.

I fear spending too much on something well beyond my requirements - commuting on roads/bike paths to work which are mostly flat. It doesn't have the same requirements as many other forum users - being off road/up hill. They require much more power. There's also little point in having monster power and running out of juice halfway to work... Accordingly, I define too much power as it being capable of being beyond my needs and having to pay more to get it. It's overpowered because it wouldn't be used and is frankly a waste of money.

It doesn't matter how much I crank the throttle. Higher wattage motors are typically heavier to deal with more power = less efficient.

Further, the more power it has, typically, the more it looks like a motorbike. Given I'm not intending on registering this....

The decisions are going to be all over the place because there's a number of variables and they change as I come across more information, suitable to my situation. It's one of the main reasons for taking my time and this thread - to hash out what's really important and make the best compromise overall.

 

[macribs]

Sorry lurkin, I have interpreted you wrongly. My mistake. Language barrier as English is not my native tongue.

Yes you are right - what is sufficient? And will that remain static over time?
Probably sufficient is a very dynamic term, that will change over time. We all have a tendency to crave more - of everything in life. And that is a good thing as it keeps us pushing forward. 8)

A good frame is a good start and you can always update. But getting stuck with low voltage battery might turn out to be costly upgrade. And yes 1500 w is 6 times the power you have today. But how efficient does that motor run? Have you looked into that Leaf motor? It seems that one has gotten some fans here lately.

Or you could go more stealth with mid drive of some sort. Keep thing light weight.

 

[Lurkin]

I need to do some more work and figure out the best compromise.

Do you have any details of the Vector knock off from China?

I realise purists of Vector will be horrified at the idea of buying a weaker, rip off variant but given it's only going to be used for commuting, it could be ideal.

I have been considering using elements of Vector's design and going custom. Particularly to move away from Steel in the upper half of the frame to reduce weight. Really not the situation I wanted to get into but I'm questioning whether it's just too heavy for my usage. I would have less battery/motor/controller requirements if the whole thing was lighter...

Decisions, Decisions

 

[macribs]

It is mentioned in the Vector thread. Think price was around 400 $.
I checked the link now and it is gone from alibaba. So seems like scam.

Starts here at page 26
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=61259&hilit=chinese+scam&start=625#p1017746

It was someone who said he was gonna try it out. Send a pm and see if it worked.