Stupid Question: Can I solder 18650 cells?

fredfire said:
Why not use hobbyking lipo packs? It seems to be a very good alternative and much cheaper. The only problem with these is that they catch fire.

My origonal goal was a 36 Volt pack with about 5-6 AH that could be discharged at 15 Amps contuniuous.
What I actually got was a battery pack from SuPower Battery:
http://www.batterysupports.com/36v-37v-42v-6400mah-64ah-20a-lithium-ion-liion-battery-pack-p-378.html
36 Volts (nominal), 42 Volts Peak
Continuous Discharge rate: 20 Amps
Capacity: 6400mAh (full capacity)
Weight: 1.1kg
Dimensions: 50 x 188 x 70 mm (Thickness x Height x Length)
Volume: 658 cc
Construction: 10S, 2P, 18650 cells with internal BMS, no charger
Cost: 178 US Dollars

Out of curiosity I looked at HobbyKing for an equivalent LiPo solution. The closest thing I found was "ZIPPY Compact 5800mAh 10S 25C Lipo Pack":
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21387__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_10S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html
36 Volts (nominal), 42 Volts Peak
Capacity: 5800mAh (full capacity)
Continuous Discharge rate: 145 Amps (25C x 5.8 )
Weight: 1.3kg
Dimensions: 45 x 162 x 82 mm (Thickness x Height x Length)
Volume: 597 cc
Construction: 10S, 1P, cells, no BMS, no charger
Cost: 99 US Dollars

The LiPo is much less expensive but it has no BMS.
It has less capacity and this was the highest capacity pack that HK had on offer.
It weighs more but has slightly less volume. There are those that would argue that it needs a hard case.
While the discharge rate is nothing short of incredible, I am not building a welding machine.

Maybe I got the figures wrong or there is a better example but I do not see an advantage to LiPo.
 
LiPo rating of 25C is grossly over-rated, the general consensus on E.S. I believe is you quarter that number. So 6.5C.
There is the risk of fire too. Not something for a casual, low power ebiker. Hardcase, I think its better to go with non-hard case so you can feel whats happening (heat) and see whats happening (puffiness). The only reason the hard cases are popular is because they are so cheap compared to other lipos. In reality, for a set of lipos compared to li ion I think the price is about the same, when it comes to hard case.

The potential for fire is too great to risk burning your house down and risking the lives of others for a hobby.
You live in an apartment, renting and live by yourself.....is fine.
 
markz said:
I'm still confused, $140 is a lot to spend on just a tab welder. Plus another $40-$60 for some used car batteries. So $200, thats like a 15Ah worth of battery cells!
I just dont know how much heat is too much, and to what degree does the battery actually degrade.
Check out the Keplerr battery build for the best way to solder a pack. I did it but saved my change for a couple of months and got a JP Welder. THAT is the way to go if buying new batts. I will soon start a battery build thread with battery designs and layouts. Also check out the welder thread and Damians youtube builds. All done with a welder. From my perspective investing in a hobby welder is the smart way. The chance of trashing good batts is nearly eliminated. IF your using salvage batteries I'd say go kepler method. He's been happy, but last I read he also ordered a welder from JP.
 
BTW the most talented Lipo guys stay away from Zippy. Go Turnigy or Multistar, that's the best advise I've gleaned from reading 100's of threads and posts.
 
I see what you mean, 56V 4Ah for $220cdn.
I remember seeing that before. Charger is $110

http://www.homedepot.ca/catalog/outdoors-outdoor-power-equipment/172303+4292882330?searchterm=ego

Warranty and return policy, right down the street.

Comes in 2, 2.5, 4, 5 and 7.5Ah.
http://www.homedepot.com/s/EGO%252056-Volt?NCNI-5
 
LewTwo said:
tomjasz said:
Would you mind linking to the pack? Can't find it...
Here you go ...
36V, 6.4Ah, Lithium ion Li-ion Battery Pack
Dimensions: 50 x 188 x 70 mm (1.9 x 7.4 x 2.8 inches), Weight: 1.15kg (2.53 pounds), Max. Continuing Discharge Current: 20A
http://www.batterysupports.com/36v-37v-42v-6400mah-64ah-20a-lithium-ion-liion-battery-pack-p-378.html

Thank you so much! That is what I have been looking for, for years. I was hoping to get it with 3500mAh cells, but 3200mAh cells would work. On my bike, that would get me 12-15 miles, and I need about 10 each way.

Any idea specifically what cells he is using?
did you receive the pack? Everything in order as you expected?
Does it have a BMS, it kinda looks like it, but it didn't say.
What is the actual weigh?
What charger did you get with it?
 
If the listing doesn't specify a particular battery it's likely a lowball price. No charger. Upgrades from the Chinese battery, the low ball price, add to the cost.
I'd see if Luna wouldn't build your pack.
 
chas58 said:
Any idea specifically what cells he is using?
Good question, but I do not know. I am not curious enough to cut the pack apart to find out.
chas58 said:
did you receive the pack? Everything in order as you expected?
Yes
chas58 said:
Does it have a BMS, it kinda looks like it, but it didn't say.
Yes
chas58 said:
What is the actual weigh?
1070 grams
chas58 said:
What charger did you get with it?
The charger does not come with it. I ordered a 2 Amp charger from from SuPower as well. It is only weighs 85 grams including the mains lead (model number listed on it is XMS-L10S20). The charger is terminated with a male 5.5mm coaxial DC power connector. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector


One thing to note is that the battery pack comes with unterminated leads (14 AWG). As I plan on using XT60 connectors I was expecting to have to change the connectors anyway. I have not done that yet. SuPower does offer to terminate the pack with the connector of your choice. I expect that there would be an extra charge for that service but I did not inquire about it. Otherwise all I can say is the construction and build quality look to be excellent.
 
I do not know why people who are in the business and sell stuff on a regular basis, do not list the basic information as to what type of cell they are, or discharge rates.
It just boggles my mind.
Its like a dealership or used car dealer who dont put on the ad whether its 4x4 or 2wd, or auto or manual, or gas or diesel (trucks).
I saw a posting for a house for sale, and it had very limited information on the realator listing website that one every realtor uses in Canada, mls.ca

So for this cell, its probably some el-cheapo, no-name cell.
 
The only way to know the build quality it to open it up. I did that with my supplier and confirmed it was a good build. SuPower have been good for supplies, but I'm not interested in the coin flip with Chinese cells. When I order from my supplier I can specify any battery. A shrink wrap build is the least expensive and includes a low end charger.
 
tomjasz said:
I'd see if Luna wouldn't build your pack.

I've already asked
- Luna won't build my pack.
- EM3ev would, if they ever get the cells in stock. They have been checking for a while now. I'm thinking they might have higher capacity (3500mAh) cells this winter or spring.

BMSBattery and SuPower sell quality 3200-3500mAh cells. I just can't tell if they would build a pack with them.

Bottom line - a 10s2p pack with 7ah would be the perfect commuter battery for me. I'm just waiting until the cells become more popular and I can find someone who builds one.
 
chas58 said:
BMSBattery and SuPower sell quality 3200-3500mAh cells. I just can't tell if they would build a pack with them.

ASK them to quote the cell you want. BTW what is the exact configuration and which cell do you want? I can get a quote from my builder and find you a reseller to go through.
 
SamD or myself can have this batt drop shipped to you. Disregard the price. Price will be based on the cell you want. It's an example. This one, I believe is 10s3p. I'm building my own based on this design but to green to do it for someone else.
 

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chas58 said:
Bottom line - a 10s2p pack with 7ah would be the perfect commuter battery for me. I'm just waiting until the cells become more popular and I can find someone who builds one.

After reading your build thread, and seeing you have the skills, I have to ask, why not buy a welder like the JP and build your own little custom packs? If you are like me and going to continue riding to would pay for itself in one build, two at the most. AND you then have the experience and knowledge to repair and get the most out of your investment. After all this thread WAS about soldering and building.
 
wineboyrider said:
Has anyone considered tool batteries 2 greenworks gmax batteries gets you 8 ah ?
http://www.greenworkstools.com/gmax40v/gmax-40v-batteries/g-max-40v-li-ion-2ah-battery/#product-tabs1
The total lack of any specifications kind of precludes any comparison .
http://www.greenworkstools.com/gmax-40v-lawn-and-garden-tools/gmax-40v-batteries/4ah-40v-battery-29472/#product-tabs1
OK, at least the second one actually has a weight so you get that 8 Amps for a cost of 5.2 pounds (2.4 Kg).
That is more than twice what we have been looking at.
 
wineboyrider said:
Has anyone considered tool batteries 2 greenworks gmax batteries gets you 8 ah ?
For near the same price you can get a decent batt with 29E Samsung and no PIA case for tool plugin. Unless you have the tools to use too. if not I don't see the advantage. Having cracked a few open now the BMS are really cheap and not repairable.
 
tomjasz said:
chas58 said:
After all this thread WAS about soldering and building.
I think it got off track as building a single battery pack seems to be somewhat less than practical.

However I did consider the idea of building a 'pressure contact' pack. I even came up with a design based #6-32 brass screws, 1/4" aluminum bus bars and acrylic insulators. I decided it was too large, too heavy and way too much work. I could probably cut down the size and weight but options are still limited without things like a good machine shop, injection molding and metal stamping .... basically not worth the effort.

I have the 3D DWG model files in case anyone wants to pursue the idea further but they are a bit large to upload here.

DIY Battery Pack.pngBottom Sub Assembly (3d).png

.... before anyone asks: BricsCAD running under Linux.
 
tomjasz said:
chas58 said:
BMSBattery and SuPower sell quality 3200-3500mAh cells. I just can't tell if they would build a pack with them.

ASK them to quote the cell you want. BTW what is the exact configuration and which cell do you want? I can get a quote from my builder and find you a reseller to go through.

My bikes are stealth, light (25lb w/o battery), low current (10-14a), and swift (23-25mph); this pack would fit it perfectly, assuming it is:

36v ~7Ah ~1.1Kg 10s2p capable of comfortably doing a steady 20a with quality cells (3500-mAh, INR1865035E, Samsung; or NCR18650GA, Panasonic or similar).

Realistically, I would want a small 10s2p pack for commuting (charging at work) and a larger pack (3p or 4p) for longer trips.
 
The Panasonic is available. I'm waiting for a quote for 10s2p

10s3p 29E, 8.7aH around $250 drop shipped from Manufacturer.

They could be designed with BMS allowing parallel setups.
 
Long-time reader of Endless Sphere here. Decided to post a positive comment about purchasing from SuPower because they went the extra mile for me. Hopefully my experiences will also be useful for other newbies like me.

Summary: SuPower (http://www.supowerbattery.com) were helpful and went the extra mile to ensure the battery was delivered to me despite Fedex issues.

In August I purchased a 10S3P pack with Sanyo NCR18650GAs. These are new ~3.5Ah cells with more than enough punch for my modest lightweight 500W setup.

(I claim this is still my first ebike ... If you ignore the fact that since 2012 I've had fun deliberately over-volting a 350W geared motor until it gave up, and then later replaced the flammable LiPo with a 'free' GMax battery, but hey, at least the same controller and the bike frame live on 8) ).

This pack is ~10Ah, lightweight and overspec'd for my current needs... but I figure that my next motor will probably be larger so its useful to build in a safety margin and besides the cells will last longer if treated carefully so its useful to have some headroom in both capacity and continuous discharge. (I'm still in shock in how much battery technology has improved in the last 18 months - amazing how much capacity & current per $ is now possible using safe chemistries.)
SuPower does not include their cell brands on their website. However their email rep (Lillian) costed out several possible specific builds and specific batteries via email.

I kept the English sentences simple and was careful to confirm all of the details. Typical email turnaround time was 24 hours. I requested genuine XT60 connectors and asked for a the opposite connector to be included (they actually included two - both free; wish I'd also asked for some heat shrink wrap too). I went for a slow 2 Amp charger (sufficient for my needs; and again if I treat this battery gently maybe it will be usable in 3 years. I paid $321 (battery+charger+$75 shipping)via paypal and the assembled pack and charger were shipped with a Fedex tracking number. The pack looks like the following except I have charge and discharge leads -
http://www.batterysupports.com/36v-37v-42v-105ah-30a-1000w-lithium-liion-ebike-battery-pack-p-459.html

Postal problems: Unfortunately due to a family emergency I was out of the country when Fedex tried, but failed, to deliver it because they required a signature. After trying to deliver a few times, it was then held at the local Fedex office, then Fedex decided to send it back to the shipper. At this point I returned and was able to trackdown the package however the Fedex would not release the package back to me. My many many daily phone calls to Fedex were unproductive. Fortunately, after emailing Lilian, SuPower was able to release the package and get it pulled from the Memphis storage area to be redelivered to my house (this time without requiring a signature). Fedex charged ~$110 for a package to be released from its International holding area. I paid this fee using Paypal to SuPower and they immediately paid Fedex. They did not charge me for their additional time required etc. And... hurrah... yesterday it arrived.

The battery arrived well packaged (bubble wrap, box-within-a box, extra paper padding) and has already been tested on the bike :D

I don't have a testing rig (just a multimeter; yeah yeah ..will probably at least buy a cheapo wattmeter sometime for the bike someday) and sorry ... I'm not going to teardown the battery to check the construction. At 50% capacity the main battery voltage gave a 0.3v rise compared to open circuit when charging at ~2Amps. The charger was very warm - I wouldn't want to leave it un-ventilated - it hit 126F / 52C after an hour.

I've been very pleased with SuPower's level of service and would recommend them. They went the extra mile to help select an appropriate pack and customize it, and ensure the battery was re-delivered when external factors conspired against me. They also emailed me to check the delivery when the tracking number finally showed that it had been delivered. I'm just very very glad I went with a supplier that was already recognized on E.S., rather than a too-good-to-be-true ebay seller. The possibility that my new battery pack might have been sent back to China and to disappear forever seemed a remote but very real possibility earlier this week - which is probably what would have happened if the original seller had not intervened.

So I encourage you to 1) stick to sellers that have a good track record on E.S.
2) Be prepared to go explore custom builds beyond a seller's web listing - Use email etc to find out what they can build for you and at what cost.
3) Handle the logistics of package delivery better than I did if you're not going to be around to accept the package.
 
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