Switching batteries from series to parallel? SOLVED

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Anonymous

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Hey all, i'm looking for an easy and elegant way to switch a bank of 3 SLA batteries from series to parallel and back. I've got a 36v drive system and a 12v solar charge controller. I know i can use a few DPDT switches to do it, but is there a more elegant way to do this with a single switch without resorting to relays? Is there anything on the market that will allow me to do this without needing to gangbar multiple switches?

Thanks!
 
There is no safe way with switches or relays that I know of.
Suggest a switch board.
An Anderson plug on each battery.
Plug each into a series patch panel of three receptacles to load.
Or a parallel set from solar.
 
I found a 4 pole double throw switch rated for high current so I ordered it, gonna see if I can get it to work that way.
 
Just keep in mind:

--a switch that can handle high currents is large If you don't mind that, doesn't matter (but many expect small handlebar-mountable switches for this sort of thing, and they rarely are). I'ts not as bad as if you needed to be able to switch under load, or have it be a circuit breaker, but still.... ;)

--a switch that is small probably can't really handle the currents (mgiht for a while, then fail just when you need it most, like a hillclimb; depends on the currents, switch/contacts/etc).

--unless the wiring is accident-proof, switching the batteries the wrong way would put the full series voltage back into the solar system, if you don't have an automatic or pre-wired way for the solar to be connected only in parallel mode, and never in series.

(it's not likely that accidentally swithcing them to the paralllel mode while connnected to the controller would cause any problems, other than the controller wouldn't work until siwtched to the series mode).
 
Rig up a pair of adapters using Anderson power poles. this "switch" will last a long time, and cost only a few bucks.

Plug into one adapter, you make the series connections, plug into the other, its parallel.

Guys come here with questions like this constantly, want to use a switch or a relay. Like 10 seconds to unplug and re plug is going to take way too long or be a big hassle. It's not with the proper adapters to plug into, using a plug that can handle many cycles.

If you prefer 4mm bullets, make your adapters with those. You are right though, those spade connections can't do many cycles without getting loose. Solder those ends to the f terminals for a permanent connection.
 
That would work, but this needs to be switchable from the cockpit so i can toggle my bank on demand for climbs, which is pretty much the only time i'll need assist. I plan to charge in parallel and when i need power i'll switch to series. On downhill and flat i'll pedal in charge mode and once i start to climb i can hit the switch and go.
 
in the past on my 2008 Mongoose ebike, i have used 3x TYCO EV200 contactor to make the serie parallel.

this was good for up to 500A :twisted:

I was switching from 12s to 24s... 12s to charge and 24s for use.

It worked very nicely!

For your own reference I MADE A POST ABOUT THAT I THE PAST :wink:


432 x 18650 cells... 210km range.. yes and it was in 2008 !

SERIE / PARALLEL SWITCH for High current & high voltage


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7240&start=0&hilit=serie+switch


file.php


1947i.jpg


1947c.jpg


Doc
 
And IMPORTANT:

to make sure that both state of contactor can not be at the same time i have used a switch like this to make a delay the coils between energize and release of contactor to about a short circuit of the serie contactor that could still be active when the paralell cntactor energize.

This worked well for the 12 000km that bike have

pect_0601.png


Doc
 
The switch i ordered has a center off position, it's supposed to disconnect everything. I'll check it with my meter when i get it in my hands and find out if it'll work. I thought of using a boost converter as well but since this setup is sort of temporary i don't want to overengineer it.

Once i build the full system i'm going to have a 12v SLA bank charging one of two lipo packs alternately and the other will power the drive motor. When i get this far with it i plan to use some sort of 'smart' system using a raspberry pi or other pic/soc hardware and a power driver board to control relays, actuators, pumps, fans, servos or whatever and interface to my phone via bluetooth. It'll do basic stuff like manage charging and battery switching by both power usage and temp. I'm thinking of doing cells in the holders with space between and on-demand cooling fans on the packs. Eventually when i have enough sensors and such i can play with more advanced features like giving it AI, computer vision, voice control interface, remote driving capability so i can drive it up steep hills unloaded from my phone, and even an autopilot'self driving mode.

Used to be that kind of stuff was like some sci-fi fantasy not too long ago, but pretty much all those code libraries for that sort of stuff is available open source. Last year or so i was playing with some of this stuff and was amazed that it took 23 lines of code to write a standalone program that used the webcam to detect multiple faces in real time and place a crosshair on each target. A few more lines of code and a day of training and it was able to recognize me and deny access to my laptop for my coworkers by the webcam. Eventually i added a voice engine that used the google API as an assistant/AI chatbot and even figured out some tricks with it like video biomonitoring for heart rate, breathing, and eye movement. With a low resolution camera, 128 pixels wide, and a convolution layer feeding a haar cascade i got sub-millimeter resolution for depth by flow tracking regions that show pixel convergence or divergence. This gave me full six channel control of the mouse and four joystick axes with just head movement, and then i added blinking and mouth gestures for extra channels. In all, it enabled me enough control to play Fallout 3 with just subtle head motions of 1cm or so, blinking for VATS, winking for weapon select and such. It was a pretty cool experience once i got used to the interface, i could basically stare at the screen and make what soon became unconscious motions to exercise my will in the game, after about an hour of slaughtering ghouls just by staring at the screen and willing it, it felt like telepathy and i could actually play better than i can with my stupid nerve damaged, mangled fingers.

Eventually with my smart system i could basically use the same AI to control the trike as well, have a camera that does the flow tracking on my face and controls whatever functions i want the same way. Think underseat steering is cool? I'm thinking of doing lean to steer using the camera and other tricks like heartrate, cadence logging, and data point collection that i can sync to a cloud server running an analytics engine and deep learning AI and maybe a genetic algorithm that can suggest ways to increase efficiency based on my riding habits. I know it's kind of extraneous and not really practical for most, but i'm a geek and it'll give me a fun way really refine my AI kung-fu.

But for now, i'll try the switch.
 
Wanna come down to Phoenix for a bit and make me a MIDI controller like that, that will read my body movements and stuff?

I can *barely* play teh keyboard and I can mutate noises with a guitar, but I can do it less well every time I get back to it. I've dreamed of something like what you've done for years.... but I suck at all the stuff needed to create the interfaces. :/
 
Well, I gave you an answer for the need you asked for,, switching to charge at 12v. Is this 12v charging happening while you ride?

If so, then what you need is not switching, but a voltage converter. or 36v charge controller, or both.
 
dogman dan said:
Well, I gave you an answer for the need you asked for,, switching to charge at 12v. Is this 12v charging happening while you ride?

If so, then what you need is not switching, but a voltage converter. or 36v charge controller, or both.

Charging will happen when i ride pedal only, like for descents and flat pedaling, like if i want to get to the next town from me, it's a 25 mile descent with about 5 miles of flat. For that section i'll be in charging mode. On the way back, most of the climb is pretty shallow across the valley, so i'd use mostly pedal power, occasionally switching to power to rest momentarily, or assist with the trailer load over short rises near bridges and culverts and then back to solar till i reach the 5 or so mile climb over about 2000' that gets me back.

Like i said, i need to switch on the fly so i can turn on pedal assist momentarily when needed for climbing and then going back to pedal and charging for flat pedaling and long(10-50 mile) descents.

Amberwolf, do you already have midi gear? From there it's basically just controlling the channels using a small python script utilizing the CV2 computer vision and PyGame libraries. Do you do python already? If so this should be simple, import your libs, initialize the camera, make a main loop, and with in it just capture a camera frame, push it into a 'face and eye' HAAR cascadce,(Haar cascades are like spreadsheet graphs that contain probabilities of what a face could look like) and assign it an ROI, or region of interest. Here you can also assign a ROI for the eyes and use math to compare the rate of change of the outer roi and the two inner eye roi to figure parallax which gives you depth from a 2d camera. The rest of the routine is easier than depth, just take the variable that contains the top left corner of the ROI value and add the ROI x and y size values divided by 2 to the ROI corner value and feed this variable to a midi channel or as a virtual joystick and calibrate the values as needed.

Google "python face detection tutorial" and check out the code examples and such, it's really basic beginner level code to do the whole loop, you can even copy and paste most of it. Beyond that, it's not too much harder to just use what's there by using the data from the variables that the ROI uses to control things. Just choose a variable like X axis pixel position, do whatever conversion math is needed (convert pixels to inches of screen, or multiply by some factor to adjust sensitivity), store the result in a new variable, and use that variable as a level for a midi channel or an analog joystick position (which most midi/synth software will accept as a channel). To get a faster response, lower the resolution of the camera, it doesn't affect accuracy but it sure does speed it up. That's how i get it to run Fallout 3 on Linux while simultaneously running my webcam capture and a joystick hardware emulator, on an obsolete laptop.

Also, if you want to do stuff like this, use linux. Forget windows, when i try to do these kinds of things in win the API chokes and it just goes into the usual windows kernel panic. Linux can handle the multithreading better and manage instructions properly.
 
I just use a parallel and series harness. Takes all of 10 seconds to switch them out for charging and riding.
 
Rusty Mustard said:
Amberwolf, do you already have midi gear?

Just a bit...my "studio" thread is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72867

Most of your response glazed my eyes over :oops: because I don't understand most of the terms/etc.

But I'll try going over your reply again, and see about making a thread in General Discussion about the topic, or just doing it in my "studio" thread, so we don't derail your bike thread(s). :oops:


(I only even ever learned anything at all about computers and stuff because I couldn't (still can't) play very well, and had to learn to use computers/etc to fix my music to be something others might actually want to hear, something closer to what I hear in my head...but I've never gotten really close to that, even so.)


I've attempted to learn programming of various types over the years, and I've never gotten very far, other than when I was a kid and learned BASIC on a VIC20 and Apple][ , and a little later 68xx assembly at DeepFry...er...DeVry. But other than the basic concepts of program, subroutines, etc, I have a fair bit of trouble conceptualizing anything newer than that, and haven't even managed anything as simple as "hello world" types of things. :(

Gimme a pile of junk and I can build a lot of useful things out of it, but I'm not so great with numbers and words and command lines, etc. Gets confusing real fast.
 
Okay, i've got my switch in the mail and it all works, the 4pdt goes from series to parallel and a second switch isolates the charge controller.

I soldered terminals on all the old wires just to test the circuit, and now that it works i'm going to score black, red, and 6 other colors of wire, some multi pin connectors and some better terminals at the switch ends so i can make a clean wiring harness to bring the switches into the cockpit.

Guess this means i should probably consider building some sort of dashboard or control panel.

Amberwolf, don't worry too much if you don't understand it yet. Do you have a linux machine set up already? If so, you should install python and play with it a bit. Even if you're on windows you can still learn python but you'll need the power of linux to make it do advanced stuff beyond what windows can handle.

So, get python and if you're on linux, then get gedit if you don't have it already, and i also recommend terminator for a terminal as it gives the ability to open multiple sessions on a single window. If you're on windows you'll probably want to download some sort of open source python ide.

Then as long as python is installed, you can just use the text editor (gedit or notepad) to write a script in plain text and then run it in the terminal.

If you've done basic then python is sort of like that but easier IMO. There are no line numbers, nested stuff is indented, and the whole thing is easily readable without all the excessive syntax gibberish of other high level languages. It's interpreted, so while it runs a bit slower than a compiled or native assembly code, there's no compiling needed, just write the script, save it, and as long as it's saved to disk you can run it directly just by calling it as a script.

These days, most of the hard stuff is already done in all the libraries and engines that are available for python. Doing what you want to do might be as simple as a single line of code calling to the midi library and telling it to send variable X to midi channel 1 and y to 2 from the face recognition thing which you can basically copy and paste from the sample code.

Don't be intimidated by python, coding has gotten way easier since back in the day and now most things you'd ever want to do are a a library load and call a function. There's millions of lines of code in the backend of the libraries, and that's what makes it so simple and powerful because you're basically just issuing macro commands in the code. You tell it "launch a window"(in proper syntax of course) and the window handling library does all the heavy lifting. Then the REAL cool thing about it is once you call a function, you can actually store that whole line as a variable. For example, if i wanted to use google's voice recognition, i could make a class variable and assign it the name of , say gvr, like this,,,

Normally you'd do something like

google.listen (parameters);
Every time you want google to listen to your voice, recognize it, and return a text string containing the parsed audio's transcription from their API. You'd need that line every time unless you store it as a variable itself.

gvr = google.listen (whatever paramters you choose)

Now once you've done this, the whole line can be called just by saying 'gvr' instead of the whole thing. This really lets you turn function calls into VERY easily readable program code. Imagine instead of calling it gvr you wanted to call it ListenToMe or whatever name that YOU find easily workable. You're not stuck with some obscure line of code that you'll have to call everywhere in the main loop and clutter it up. That's just an example of how coding has gotten easier. You can also check out another language that is similar, but even more simple called Ruby.

And if that's not simple enough, check out 'block coding', basically a visual, drag and drop coding interface with almost all the power of 'real' code in a colorful puzzle piece way where certain shapes fit together to show you how the code interacts visually. It's pretty much like coding with Legos at this stage, clicking pieces together to build a program. Block coding is basically intended as an educational tool to get kids coding early, if it had a box it'd say "For ages 5 and up" on it. Still, there's a LOT you can do VERY fast and easily with codeblocks.

Check this out, this was done all with codeblocks and not a single like of handwritten code. I made the game's visual resources from open source clipart and stuff i made using gimp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAgoR9yt1ew
 
Check it out, if anyone else cares, this is how you do it. I don't know why this is supposed to be too hard or impractical, it cost me $6 for a switch from ebay, a few ring eye terminals from the hardware store and about 20 minutes of soldering and screwing it all together.

series parallel 36v switch.jpg


Switch is a 4PDT 3 position "break before make" that i tested to make sure there was no shorts between positions. It has 12 terminals in a matrix of 4x3. The above shows the wiring diagram. Today i'm going to order the colored wire, and maybe a few 12 pin aircraft fittings and do up a proper color coded wiring harness and maybe make some kind of center console for switches and instrumentation.


I think i need some sort of bicycle computer next, i'll probably score a basic, cheap digital one until i get further along in building the digital control system and wire it up with sensors and such. Eventually i'm thinking once i zap Frankentrike's brain to life i can replace that all with a 10-12" display (or maybe a few, i've got like 3 screens from old netbooks that i can use), then i can do stuff like put telemetry over the camera feeds, do mapping and navigation, and possibly by using a tight beam high power LED and some corrective optics, i can give it a jet fighter style HUD (or even a videogame inspired HUD, like a Pip-Boy display) I've also got my eye on some robotics servos that i'm going to use for steering, 360kg/cm torque and 120deg/sec rotation at 24v. With this servo i'll be able to drive it remotely and start working on the self-driving code.
 
Lets see how long the 6 buck switch lasts. When the bike is off, your controller will drain, and then when you turn back on there will be a big spark.

This is why the others posted larger, usually more expensive, high amps DC rated switches. Or, a harness made from contacts known to stand the sparking.

You can solve this by disconnecting with a plug that can handle the spark, or a large switch, putting the series parallel switch in the desired position, then re connecting.

The circuity is not difficult, but the weight, size, and cost of the big switches turns most off, especially since on the fly use is not needed by most. Worth the cost to your needs, now that you told us that.

One thing to know about ES, There is never one way to get er done. But the collective wisdom here tends to lead to suggestions that are the easiest, cheapest, lasting way to do things. But not telling us all your needs in the first place led to suggestions that don't fit your needs.


We do know that using a small switch to reconnect a de powered controller will fry the switch fairly quick.
 
Dan, this is a heavy duty industrial control switch rated for 15 amps, and my current motor doesn't pull that much power. I'll need to upgrade when i do the motor.

And i don't know what you mean by me not telling you what my needs are, i described what i wanted to do several times, i needed a series/parallel switch and asked if there was a common solution before reinventing the wheel. When the bike is parked all day i hit the master switch and disconnect the controller, the s/p switch is so i can ride around on 36v, and when i park or coast downhill i switch to charge mode and deal with a bit of drain offset by the solar power input when i'm running around town doing short errands.
 
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