Tadpole trike for long range trips

[Golyo]

Hi there,
I am planning on building this etrike for a while now. Finally I purchased the trike a month ago, it is a TW-Bents Trident (20" front wheels and 26" rear). I would mainly use it for long range travels, I am planning to go around in Europe next year with it. With that in mind, a 300W rear hub motor is enough for me I think, and I am thinking about building a 15-20Ah 36V pack - if I can buy the whole pack at a reasonable price from a trustworthy European vendor, I might opt for that. Otherwise I will order the cells from Nkon, and build myself.
I am looking for parts that would fit the bill for me. I would like to keep the total for this conversion around 800 USD, if possible.
VAT is 27% in my country, and we have to pay it on every package over 100 USD from outside the EU.

 

[Triketech]

I would put reliability first, followed by efficiency.

In the budget range a Smart Pie 4/5 with a 48V 15ah Lithium Ion battery will give a modest boost up hills but don't expect too much climbing grades over about 8% for any long distances. Should give you about 80KM range if you use the power sparingly.

 

[Marc S.]

I ride a trike and tried serveral different hub motors in the last 4 years/32,000km.

Direct drive hub motors are heavy and offer not much torque at your proposed power level. They are a good choice for a 20" wheel or higher power levels.
I'd go with a lighter geared hub motor instead. A '500W' geared hub motor like Bafang BPM (not the BPM2!) or Bafang CST is a bit more robust than their smaller '250W' brethren.

Ebike-Solutions from Germany http://www.ebike-solutions.com or elfKW from Austria http://elfkw.at are good, reputable vendors. Their websites are in German only, unfortunately.

Since the battery is the single most expensive part, I'd try to find somebody who can build a good quality, spot welded, battery at a reasonable price.
Andreas ('Schwibsi' in the German Ebike forum http://www.pedelecforum.de) builds good quality batterys. I'm very happy with the 36V/22Ah battery he made for me from Sony Konion US18650V3 cells. Try to contact him here http://www.schwibach.net (he might no be available at the moment)

 

[dogman dan]

For max durability, up long mountain grades at lower power levels, a direct drive hub motor would need to be a very low rpm one. But most likely, you'd like a geared motor much better, as stated above. A good geared motor will weigh less, and durability will still be many thousands of kilometers of riding.

 

[Golyo]

Thanks for the replies so far! I can definitely see the positives of a geared hub now. I am also intrigued by the possibilities in a SmartPie5. Have to start reading up a lot of stuff now.

 

[SlowCo]

Although I have no experience with them wouldn't a Bafang BBS01 36V 350W be a good choice?:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=183

That way the motor stays in the best efficiency range (saving battery power) while still be able to climb long hills without overheating. And it's also easier to change a flat rear tire when "on tour".

 

[Golyo]

Although I have no experience with them wouldn't a Bafang BBS01 36V 350W be a good choice?:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=183

That way the motor stays in the best efficiency range (saving battery power) while still be able to climb long hills without overheating. And it's also easier to change a flat rear tire when "on tour".

The mid-drive is ruled out for me. I was thinking about for long, but is not an option now. Chain wear, boom strength are my main concerns.

 

[waynebergman]

I have had good luck with the mac 10t motors and would recomend them. I have one on my trike now and it is realy nice. I would recomend a 50 volt if you can justify the cost as 30mph is nice to have on tap when you need it. When I see a car in the side view mirror coming up behind me I can give it the gas to give me some space and find a spot to pull over etc. You dont have to use your max speed but it is nice to have it for fun and also for defensive riding. Also with a trike, weight is not so much an issue like a two wheeler so I would go for a 50 volt set up if you can justify it.

 

[Golyo]

I have had good luck with the mac 10t motors and would recomend them.

I am sold on the geared motor, but cannot right now justify the Mac over the Bafang CST. The latter gives me the option to use my cassette and shifter, and is cheaper a little. What controller would you recommend for the CST?
This vendor seems okay on aliexpress, anybody with experience? http://www.aliexpress.com/item/new-wholesale-bafang-8fun-36V500W-CST-motor/2000451217.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.1.EY0rn6&ws_ab_test=201556_3,201527_4_45_71_72_73_74_75,201560_3

 

[Marc S.]

Well, while you can't use your old cassette, you still can use your derailleur and shifter with a screw-on freewheel cluster and a Bafang BPM or Mac. Screw-on freewheels are available in good quality up to 10 speed (I use 9speed freewheels with Shimano XT derailleurs): http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/shop/motoren/schraubkraenze

Ebike-Solutions just happen have a Bafang BPM on sale for €199: http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/shop/motoren/motoren-ueber-250w/bafang-bpm-hinterradmotor-36v-500w-fuer-20-zoll.html (I just bought one this morning for my second trike)
Its a 20" version, top speed with 36V battery in 26" wheel is about 35km/h.

 

[Richard_Coffey]

Golyo, thank you for posting. I too have a recumbent tadpole trike with a nine-speed cassette that I would like to retain, so I share your interest in the Bafang CST motor. Unlike your Trident's 26" rear wheel, my Catrike has a 20" rear wheel.

And thank you for the link to the Ali Express vendor BTN Holding Group. I thought Bafang was the only manufacturer, but BTN also offer cassette-compatible motors by MXUS and Shengyi:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/36V-48V-250W-High-Speed-Brushless-Gear-Hub-Cassette-Motor-E-bike-Cassette-Motor-Rear-Wheel/1888675185.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/BTN-electric-bike-250W-greared-cassette-motor-hot-sale/2000485070.html

You asked about a suitable controller. Here is an interesting thread about the S12S controller with the Bafang CST:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69417&p=1109837&hilit=bafang+cst#p1109837

 

[Golyo]

You asked about a suitable controller. Here is an interesting thread about the S12S controller with the Bafang CST:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69417&p=1109837&hilit=bafang+cst#p1109837

Hi Richard,
I've read that, yeah. Just spent way too much money on the motor, controller etc. S12S and Bafang CST, I am starting to get anxious. Also I am planning on building a 32 Ah 36V pack. My friends don't believe me, when I tell them, that I am going to visit them next year in Cologne, Amsterdam, Brussels, Brighton and I am going by bike, err trike.

Windshield project up next.

 

[Richard_Coffey]

Hi Golyo,
Congratulations on your purchase. I have read good things about the Bafang CST when paired with a sine-wave controller like yours.

Vicky at BMSBattery noticed that I'd been prowling their site and emailed me, and I've been working with her on a Cute system for my Catrike:

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/616-q100c-cst-36v350w-rear-e-bike-whole-kit-ebike-kit.html#/317-display-lcd1/214-rpm-328

1. Q100C CST 36V350W Rear E-Bike Whole Kit: Cute Q100C 36V 350W cassette motor @ 328 RPM, 36V 10Ah Bottle battery with integrated S06S Hall Sensor Sine Wave Controller, 20" 1.5-1.95 Wheel, 90V-132V (USA) charger, S-LCD3 Display, Thumb Throttle
2. Hidden Wire Brake Sensor
3. Spoke Wrench

I haven't placed the order yet, so if you or anyone else see problems, please let me know.

In any case, Golyo, please keep us updated with the assembly of your soon-to-be-motorized trike and your battery build. Your moto-trike trip across Europe sounds like great fun!

Richard

 

[Golyo]

Hi Richard,
this kit seems like a good option at first, but shipping is an extra 50% (probably because of the complete wheel and the battery). With shipping it is still looks like a very good budget option, but I am a noob, with zero experience. It would be great to know more about the cells in the battery, and I've read a few negatives about the quality of how the wheel is made - basically the components are acceptable but the work is pretty bad. So I would definitely factor in a visit to your LBS to have them check the wheel before riding. Talking about the wheel - it is time to look for a new tire and rim for the new rear wheel. I am looking at the Big Apple from Schwalbe - the bigger, the better - I will put quite some weight on the back.

 

[Richard_Coffey]

Hi Golyo,
Thanks for the quick reply. I am a newbie too, though I put a Currie motor, controller, and lead-acid battery on a tadpole trike ten years ago and used it to commute in the winter.

I am on a budget and I want a lightweight system too, so the Q100C (2.1 Kg) coupled with a 10 Ah battery (3 Kg) seems to fill both needs for around-town fun rides. Not enough for the long trip you are planning though.

The complete kit with battery and built wheel is about $350 and shipping is about $170. The shipping does seem high, but I have not found any domestic dealers in the USA who sell cassette-compatible motors, so my options are limited.

Here is the 36V 10Ah battery pack spec:
1. Normal voltage: 36V.
2. Continuous discharge current: 10A
3. Charge current: 2.5A.
4. 4P10S Li-ion 2.5Ah 18650 cells.
5. Weight: 3Kg
6. Size: 325mm X 90mm

I have seen mixed reviews about the wheel-building too. I'm not worried though, because I have a wheel building jig and have built and trued several wheels over the years.

I am a big fan of Schwalbe's Big Apple tires and run them on all three wheels. Highly recommended.

Regards,
Richard

 

[Marc S.]

From my experiance (and several others here) I'd advise strongly against buying from BMSBattery.
If they send what you ordered, fine. But you can't be sure they do. I received the wrong motor (BPM2 instead of BPM) with a differend winding (despite trying beforehand explaining by email exactly what I wanted, to make sure they send the right motor) and a broken charger. No refund.

Ah, and the wheelbuild was really crappy too! Constandly loose spokes till I rebuild the wheel myself with a different rim and spokes.

 

[Richard_Coffey]

Thanks, Marc.

If not BMSBattery, who do you recommend?

 

[Marc S.]

Here is the 36V 10Ah battery pack spec:
1. Normal voltage: 36V.
2. Continuous discharge current: 10A
3. Charge current: 2.5A.
4. 4P10S Li-ion 2.5Ah 18650 cells.
5. Weight: 3Kg
6. Size: 325mm X 90mm

Looks like a really cheap battery made from crappy battery cells of unkown origin: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/709-2500mah-lithium-ion-battery-18650-battery-cell-battery.html
10A continuous discharge current is too low for use in an ebike.

 

[Marc S.]

Thanks, Marc.

If not BMSBattery, who do you recommend?

If you wanna buy from China, buy here: http://www.em3ev.com/store
A well known vendor, great products, great customer service and Paul actually knows what he is selling.

 

[Richard_Coffey]

Thanks Marc. I have heard good things about EM3EV and I have corresponded with Paul. He was very helpful and informative, but the Mac motor he carries is heavy and is not cassette-compatible. He recommended the Bafang BBS02 mid-drive, but, like Golyo, I am reluctant to mount a motor on the end of my trike's boom.

 

[Marc S.]

I wouldn't mount a mid drive to the boom myself. I rather use a hub motor (what I do) or a motor that drives the rear wheel with a second chain to the brake disk side of the rear hub. Like the DaVinci drives http://davincidrives.co , used in the Outrider Alpha trikes http://outriderusa.com (unfortunately at a much higher price point).

As for the cassette. The srew on freewheels are not that bad. As I wrote earlier, the 9-speed freewheels are working pretty well with my Shimano XT 9-speed derailleurs (so far I used three Suntour freewheels, each is/was running 10,000-12,000km).