Target: 200W (ish) Aussie Stealth Bike - ideas

[Hyena]

Even 250w is crap though. I guess the only fair they they could (should!) do is set the resistance of the dyno such that it simulates flat ground. A limitation of 250w while rolling on the flat wouldn't be nearly as bad as an outright limit of 250w at maximum load (ie hills or launching off the line)

Have you got a link to where it says 250w now ? The RTA website still says 200w and mentions a speed limit of 50km/hr for mopeds

 

[Grinhill]

Hey boost, thanks for the heads up! It may pay to keep in touch with your mate so we can have progress reports. Hmmm, wonder if he reads ES :?

Knowing how those sort of government departments usually work, I guess we can say there'll be nothing out there for at least 12 months. Plenty of time to come up with more stealth ideas.

 

[hoontune]

Thanks, will take a look.

 

[heathyoung]

Read the PDF on the link...

"Proposed Definitions to be incorporated into the ADRs
1.1.1. PEDAL CYCLE (AA)
A vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power.
[unchanged]
1.1.2. POWER-ASSISTED PEDAL CYCLE (AB)
A pedal cycle [vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by
human power] to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having
a combined maximum continuous rated power not exceeding 250 watts, of
which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the
vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops
pedalling,"

 

[boostjuice]

Hey boost, thanks for the heads up! It may pay to keep in touch with your mate so we can have progress reports. Hmmm, wonder if he reads ES

I will keep in touch with him and report his 'progress' on here. Luckily he doesnt frequent ES. He is keen on Electric cars however and frequents several exclusively Australian EV forums.

 

[AussieJester]

I gather hes on http://www.aeva.asn.au then...whats his nick? I'll bribe him to 'go slow'
or simply fix a device in the machine that a transponder on my bike will trigger to report 199watt when my bike is on it

KiM

 

[Hyena]

I thought about dialing mine down to 200w Kim, but then I realised their dyno is going to be set up to look for 200w-1000w. I'm prepared to blow motor by dumping 10+ kw and the full power my lipos can provide to be the guy who blew up the RTAs dyno with his electric bike :lol:

Heath, I hadn't seen your PDF when I posted before. I read through it and it sounds reasonable if they'll allow spikes much higher than 250w. The example of a 36v battery and 25a controller isn't too bad if that'll be allowed - I was thinking they'd be trying to enforce 24v motors with 12a controllers. Thats all still just a proposal though right ? Do you know roughly how long before any of it is acted on ? At the moment we're still talking 200w motors and no way to prove otherwise though right ?

 

[BiGH]

Ok in regards to the 200/250w limit - i highly reccommend that you find a way to test ride some bikes. I test rode a 200w bike, and was fairly disappointed. hence i made plans to use a more powerful bike (36v @ 35a) with a crystalite 408. and even then it was over 1kw. Even this i found to be at most a mild assist. moving to 48v made things a lot better, 72v was a blast - VERY fast, however i found i broke things. i eventually settled on 48v 48a in a 504.

try and find a bike shop that sells "legal" ebikes, and test ride one. you'll probably feel that its underpowered. If you are looking at a hub motor, i'd suggest getting a geared hub motor.

i think the 2xx W limit is an absolute load of crap. its laws like this that make people not want ebikes, and increases the stigma that electric powered is crap.

Think i'll step up the design of a electric motorbike.

 

[AussieJester]

I'm prepared to blow motor by dumping 10+ kw and the full power my lipos can provide to be the guy who blew up the RTAs dyno with his electric bike :lol:

Be easier and cheaper to just bribe the Pooolice man your in NSW after all

KiM

 

[GrayKard]

You must have got the QX85 motor in the rear with the disk threaded on? The 108 motor I had was the wider unit and with the threaded section for the disk mount and space for 7 gears it's very wide. Any pics?

I rechecked the dimensions of the rear motor and it's 108mm from spoke hole to spoke hole so it's definitely not the QX85. It doesn't have the thread on disk mount either. It has holes tapped into the motor cover and the rotor bolts directly to the side.

On a side note some people had trouble mounting the rotor because the holes didn't line up. Mine lined up fine on the rear, and a test fit of the front was good too.

Sorry, no good closeups of it right now, I'll get the good camera out and do some macro's of it for you later tonight.

Gary

 

[heathyoung]

Heath, I hadn't seen your PDF when I posted before. I read through it and it sounds reasonable if they'll allow spikes much higher than 250w. The example of a 36v battery and 25a controller isn't too bad if that'll be allowed - I was thinking they'd be trying to enforce 24v motors with 12a controllers. Thats all still just a proposal though right ? Do you know roughly how long before any of it is acted on ? At the moment we're still talking 200w motors and no way to prove otherwise though right ?

No problems... Its mainly the ICE guys up in arms over it, there is very little way to restrict the chinese 'Happy Time' two strokes down to 200W - I rode one of the 66cc ones for a while with a decked head and an expansion chamber, it was quick, and it was torquey - you could just gun it up hills and barely pedal. Probably about 1.5-2KW or so.

Now I'm running around on a 400W (ish) cyclone kit - lower power means gearing is a neccesity - I tried a 500W hub motor on a hill I commute up every day and it just gave up - the cyclone does it (just) and slowly, pulling about 600W - with a 44 front chainring and a 32 rear... Yikes.

As for timeframe, its still only a discussion paper, but its going to be used Australia wide - so who knows. It isn't about encouraging ecologically friendly transport, or puplic safety, its the RTA getting pissed off that they cant charge us registration - revenue raising pure and simple.

Just like Greed Kills. (Speed Kills. A message from the RTA).

 

[lalaland]

I also think that 200W limit is ridiculous for most setups. I've got a 300W elation install on a mountain bike which probably gets as good a performance as you can get from low powered motor (by using all the gears). People always ask...How fast does it go, and I tell them.. truth is it is slower with the motor than without it. The advantage of the motor is in its staying power not the speed. A typical ride I used to do along the foreshore in Perth. 10k up then back... on the the pre-converted bike it would take me about 40mins for the 10k into the Fremantle doctor and about 20 mins the other way. With the motor fitted its 20mins each way. So the4 motor definitely is an advantage but you quickly lose a lot when you want more range, comfort, safety. A fit rider on a lightweight racing bike can go MUCH faster than any of the legal ebikes you can buy here in Australia. For my trike ... I havent done it yet, but I'm planning on just setting up the cycle analyst to default to 200w limit, so if ever the "upholders of the status quo" (you know 500W ebike = bad, 300kW V8 gas guzzler = good) want to test power I should be OK..

 

[elation]

Hi Lalaland.

truth is it is slower with the motor than without it

I am sorry, but this is a total contradiction to over 3 years of our own testing, and comments from a large number of clients. If the motor is not operating, it freewheels and add only 6kg of weight, so hardly a 'ball buster' to cause a slowing down.

At the other end of the operating spectrum, if you are pedalling faster than the motor is set to rotated at then you can change anyone of the FOUR gears rings to tweak to your ride style.

I am an overweight 50 something person, and I am able to sustain +40-45kph for an acceptable distance for most on a Hybrid with 200W system, and I only ride once every blue moon nowadays.

Next, if you are halving the time of one leg of the trip, yet 'is slower', I am at a loss. I understand what you are suggesting ie; you are able to better overcome the doctor, but you clearly are still completing the journey faster, hence at more speed than if you did not use eLation.

Finally, how can any electric system, let alone the eLation, impact on comfort and safety? Electrics does not impact on riders ergonomics and safety is always the responsibilty of how the rider rides (electric of not).

Cheers
Allan

PS. If you check into it a bit more you will find that the CA used as a limiter will not avoid the legality of Aust regulations. Been there, and argued strongly with DOTAR about exact same thing. You will need to be FULLY truthful to get correct answer. ie; advise them that the END USER has the ability to easily change the power limit. Naturally, you could always structure the question to get the answer you want, but would then suggest you get the answer in writing also.

 

[AussieJester]

Hi Lalaland.

truth is it is slower with the motor than without it

I am sorry, but this is a total contradiction to over 3 years of our own testing, and comments from a large number of clients. If the motor is not operating, it freewheels and add only 6kg of weight, so hardly a 'ball buster' to cause a slowing down.

Its totally feasible, you yourself have just said it adds 6kg to the bike and the added friction of the freewheel on the motor... One could quiet conceivably pedal the bike at a faster speed WITHOUT the motor on the bike than with the motor on the bike and running simply due to the added weight and friction from the extra chains/motor. You might not be able to maintain this greater speed, but it could definitely be faster top speed WITHOUT the added weight and drag.

Next, if you are halving the time of one leg of the trip, yet 'is slower', I am at a loss. I understand what you are suggesting ie; you are able to better overcome the doctor, but you clearly are still completing the journey faster, hence at more speed than if you did not use eLation.

Of course he completes the into the wind leg faster now he has electric assist, as he lalaland points out the
strong point is the staying power not the top speed, into the wind with the electric he could maintain a speed
without the motor he could at best maintain a slower speed OR bursts of high and low. Maybe faster over a given
distance with electric assist but the top speed doesn't have to be faster now does it & this is what lalaland was getting @ i think... The low power of the elation helps maintain a constant 'average' speed over a given distance but NOT a higher top speed.

KiM

 

[elation]

Hi Kim

To be honest I can understand why a lot more manufacturers/suppliers don't comment on forums. It is like bashing a head against a wall. I KNOW his statement is not correct. I base that on FACTS gained from 3 years of ongoing testing (on and off road) and a larger number than a sample of ONE client saying contray to this.

Look at an example; assume a combined weight of 100kg for bike and rider travelling at 35kph (197W). Adding 6 Kg of weight needs only 2.4W more power (199.4W), and as I stated hardly ball busting. Looked at another way, to maintain same power usage of 197W the rider would have to drop to 34.83kph (a loss of 0.17kph) or equivalent to a 0.3kph head wind. Come on, 'friction' from freewheel is a poofteenth of a Newton. Put into perspective a 1 year old child can turn a freewheel with NO effort using his/her hands, so hardly a load to consider.

ES has come to be seen as "place of knowledge" for eBikes, and I applaud that. However, in the background it is starting to do more damage than good, with a lot of 'loose' statments and falacies (other postings eg. Over volting, dont get me started on that ) being seen as virtually gospel.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I got a call or email saying something like "But on Endless Sphere it said XXXXX, so it MUST be OK to do". I would be a lot richer, except for the time lost correcting or completing the ES info.

I stand by my comments on speed. There are FOUR rings hat can be changed to meet ANY rider's needs. Various size gear rings are made for this very reason ON NORMAL BIKES, to accomodate a wide range of rider styles. Rather than make a blanket (and I feel mis-informed statement), it would have been more informative to hear results of the rings being changed. Just like one other gent did, and commented on in this forum.

Cheer
Allan

 

[AussieJester]

Look at an example; assume a combined weight of 100kg for bike and rider travelling at 35kph (197W). Adding 6 Kg of weight needs only 2.4W more power (199.4W), and as I stated hardly ball busting. Looked at another way, to maintain same power usage of 197W the rider would have to drop to 34.83kph (a loss of 0.17kph) or equivalent to a 0.3kph head wind. Come on, 'friction' from freewheel is a poofteenth of a Newton. Put into perspective a 1 year old child can turn a freewheel with NO effort using his/her hands, so hardly a load to consider.

So you admit it takes more effort therefore an elite cyclist could feasible travel faster without the extra weight..

Don't like your product openly criticised don't post on a public forum simple as that...FYI..i WASN'T knocking your product but as per usual you take it that way, in fact I have recommended the elation kit to a fella in Queensland last week, only thing i have against them is your continual spaming in the forum of how great they are and how crap the competitors are...that and the price. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, right or wrong your will hear them all on public forums as i said, don't like it don't post Allan...

Best of luck selling your WAY over priced underpowered setups Allan <--now thats openly criticising your product..see the difference

KiM

 

[elation]

Whatever Kim

Your right, 0.17 kph, is a ball breaker and makes ALL the difference.

Is not about criticising, is about FACTS. A little bit more of them on here would go a long way. To much "I think" (more like DONT think), than fact.

Aso good to see that comments continue to be made without any substaiatin also. Nothing new here.

One day you recommended a prodcut and bag it the next because I have put your nose out of joint. NOW THAT IS INFORMED posting PMSL.

Have a nice Day
Allan

 

[Hyena]

Now play nice kids. Kim atleast he's not selling frock motors

In Allans defense, he's selling a street legal product that does work, its our stupid laws we have to thank for uninspiring performance.
As far as I can tell elation is an Australian owned and run company too, not just some importer selling container loads of chinese hub motors so that's worth something in my book. Yeah the kits are expensive but that's the companies choice to make. As for the increased drag / resistance, I think you'd find it's minimal considering the alternative of larger direct drive hub motors.


Hyena the overvolter

 

[lalaland]

Allan, Gday. Firstly I'd like to say that I was in no way criticizing the Elation setup.. I've been very happy with my setup. However I standby what Ive said. From my personal experience, on this particular setup, I can go faster (but only for short periods) with the un-modified bike. Possibly changing gearing etc would put the motor in a better range for increased top speed, but why would I do that? I'm not really interested in increasing the top speed but rather the average speed, and the existing setup does that well. As I said, it takes 20 mins off a 1 hour round trip... and that is all on the winward leg. There is no real need for the motor on the leg with the wind. As far as the saftey issue goes.. Sure the rider is responsible for safety, but that does not mean to say that qualities of tyres, frames and brakes are not going to make a difference? On a non-ebike that main aim is to get weight down so faster bikes tend to be lighter and components are not as robust. Having more power available means you can carry around more builtin safety. It also means the design can be varied to allow a more ergonomic configuration. For example- I have trike which I feel is both safer and more comfortable than a normal bike. It has a lower centre of gravity, it has 3 wheels so its harder to fall off, has excellent braking but pays the penalty of extra weight.. With this configuration a 200w setup isnt really enough IMHO, and yet its quite legal to get around on a skinny slick tyred, underbraked, hard seated racing bike at 60kph.

Thanks for the info on legal issue. It will be a shame if I end up having to putting the trike in the shed and just use the gas guzzler.

@ Kim. Thanks for the backup.
Cheers,
Lawrie

 

[full-throttle]

Excellent point lalaland - overpowered e-bikes tend to be safer than say a brakeless fixie*.

I build my first e-bike to be as efficient and as light as possible in order to get the most out of the 200W limit. Soon after, efficiency and lightweight gave way to comfort and control - stronger brakes, wider tyres, suspension, less aerodynamic position.. etc. I even fitted a bell, something I would never do on my roadie. Needless to say my current e-bike is over the limit.

In my opinion, anyone who wants a legal setup should consider efficiency as #1 priority and anyone who thinks that legal limit is too low should consider safety and control.

Bottomline: I would strongly encourage any e-biker to stick to the laws, ride safely and be considerate to the other road users.

Just wanted to add something: one of my biggest concerns is being involved in an accident while not being my fault and having to pay for it just because my bike is over the legal limit. What's your opinion on this, guys?

* I don't want to start an argument about fixies, I got nothing against them (a lot of my friends use them), I just picked it as an example of a commuting setup.

 

[Hyena]

I agree with the efficiency vs comfort thing. If you've got less than 500w pushing you you're going to need uncomfortable skinny ass tyres and be all hunched up.

That's an interesting point re: liability.
I guess if you're on a fixie with no brakes you'd be equally in trouble, as the law states you have to have working brakes + reflectors etc.
If you're not at fault you shouldn't be made to pay anything, although insurance companies will do anything to get out of a claim

I guess you've just gotta ride as sensibly and defensively as you can and on the off chance you do get hit know that it wasn't your fault. That's not a huge consolation if you're injured and I'm guessing the cars insurance company are unlikely to spring 2 grand odd for your totalled bike.

 

[Geebee]

The information from Elation re the CA to control the wattage may have been mistaken, if you read the section under registration, setting the CA to default to 200 w (if it can do that?) there would be no way they could prove that the bike was more than 200w in use, and it looks like having the ability to adjust the wattage is not illegal you just can't do so whilst riding it on road. http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_27_-_mopeds_and_power-assisted_pedal_cycles_july_2008.pdf

 

[lalaland]

... setting the CA to default to 200 w (if it can do that?) ...

You can certainly set a current limit (hence power limit) from the Cycle Analyst menu. However, even though it will 'default' to this setting on every power up, it is still editable by the end user. Also because it works by shunting the throttle signal to the controller, it can easily be overcome by simply removing the shunt connection. Is it good enough to convince authorities that its legal? I dunno. Unfortunately the authorities are becoming increasingly paternal and more likely to further restrict than free up legislation so we are really swimming against the tide. I personally have no desire to do anything illegal, and yet I also have no desire to contribute uneccessarily to global warming by taking the car when I would be just as happy on a suitable e-bike...which is the greater evil?

 

[Geebee]

Yeah they are getting more and more silly by the day.
I think that in some ways a 50 kph e-bike is safer as you sit in the traffic flow and are treated as a motor bike by drivers, where as at 200w you have to come in and out of the traffic dependent upon speed and conditions.
On a 1kw bike ride I may get passed by maybe 2 cars on the same ride with the 200w I get passed by 100 cars.

On the PDF it states "if any such adjustment is made, the owner and user maybe prosecuted" so having the adjustment is not illegal just using it is, and if you set the bike to default to 200w at power up they could never prove that you were using more, if you are paranoid about a crash and it not shutting down just use a lanyard cut off like the small outboards.

As an aside no 200w legal system I have used or seen the specs to would pass the test for 200w on a dyno, I checked with the local DOT techs and the rating is absolute max output at the motor shaft, even a certain one that get alot of forum time will fail unless the controller is built differently than the Manufacturers own or it efficiency is around 50%. I suppose you have the fall back of having been sold it as a legal system though.

The legal crap is making me seriously consider selling my high powered bike as I cant curb the urge to ride it fast and it must be bl..dy obvious to anyone that it is over powered.

 

[heathyoung]

Also bear in mind that limiting to 200W electrical is going to be a problem with this setup because unloaded the setup still draws power - Mine is 100W (think there is a crook bearing somewhere) so limiting to 200W means (assuming 100% efficiency) 100W at the wheel.

Also, the RPM is a big determinant of efficiency of these motors as well, you may be putting 600W into it, but only getting 200 out - and a shyteload of heat.

Most of the c**tstabulary don't give a rodents rectum as long as you dont ride like a twat round here... Or ride a 2 stroke