Temporary controller and throttle problem

[andla]

Hi everyone!
I need some help to go forward. Some help/info of things to test to solve my problem.
I'm using a temporary controller and a used throttle that was given to me for free.
The multimeter doesn't give any voltage when I'm testing the other two wires and use full throttle.
At least I got happy when the lamp lit up.
Here is an image:

The controller is an 36v brushless controller. 7 amp min 15 amp max

Appreciate your help.

 

[NeilP]

How many wires on the controller and who are they connected?

With the lights on the throttle, i suspect 4 wires? One being gorund, one being battery voltage feeding the lamps, then a 5 volt and a signal out?


Cant quite see what you have connected there, but I would usggest the way to test the throttle to start with is to connect it to a ground, a 5 volt feed and then check the other wire to se that you get an output proportional to the throttle output. So starting at 0 or 1volt out, going up to a maximum of what ever is going in on the feed side ....so 4.8 or 5 volt or so...maybe only 3 volt. I think with my throttle, it goes from 0v to 3.86 on WOT

 

[andla]

I have made some videos of the problems to give more details
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHcx0tf4ZLQ[/youtube]

Extra video I did because I forgot to mention about the other cable
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c-fRczbQZE[/youtube]

I'm not sure of how to find the ground wire. I'm not experienced with this.

 

[NeilP]

I have now watched video. Your links are not working because they are wrong

From Youtube you get something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHcx0tf4ZLQ

you only need to put the bit after the '=' sign in the youtube link

This bit AHcx0tf4ZLQ

Like this

[youtube]AHcx0tf4ZLQ[/youtube]

If you get it correct, this happens:






[youtube]AHcx0tf4ZLQ[/youtube]

[youtube]9c-fRczbQZE[/youtube]



Please post pictures of the other plugs.


By ground I mean negative= the black wire= the minus power from battery
My Crystalyte controller uses orange for ground, but black is convention

Do no go cutting off any more plugs

Let us know the make of the controller . is there a label on the back with wire code?. Picture of that too please
Some one who knows that exact controller may be able to tell you exactly which wire without needing to test each one.


The throttle has 4 wires? And coloured lights? a display for battery volts?


Now to test the small wires from the controller.

1 Disconnect the soldered connection you have made, Why did you connect red and yellow to black and red?

2 Put test meter to DC volts,

3 Connect black lead from volt meter to black on controller. Use the black from the battery for now. Nothing else connected. Just battery and one black lead from volt meter.

4 Now with other lead from volt meter, check the voltages on the wires. Check the other small coloured wires from the controller.

Start with the wires you have cut
Do the red ones have about 5 volts on them? That is what you want.

Also look for one that has battery voltage on it...this may or may not exist

If you find a group of 4 wires, a Black, a Red ( 5 volts ) and two other colours, one with Battery voltage. then this is the throttle connector. Do not connect the battery voltage wire to the throttle


So I hope you have now identified at least one red wire with 5 volts on it

Connect this red 5 volt wire to red wire on the throttle.
It looks like you do not have a black wire on the throttle, this may be tricky. I would either hope that somone else recognises this throttle, and tells you what wires to connect, or you open the throttle up and take pictures of the wires and show us where they connect inside.

For the throttle to work the controller, you need three wires
Ground/Neutral/Minus
positive feed to throttle ( usually 5 volts I believe)
Signal out. this changes as the throttle is moved, fro m0 or 1 volt, up to 4 or 5 volts when the throttle is fully open

The 4th wire is the wire that reads battery voltage and makes the throttle lights work...not necessary for now to connect this



Now you have the controller connected to the battery...Black to Black, red to red

If you have managed to identify the throttle
negative
positive
Signal
Lights,

then connect Controller to throttle.
Controller black to minus on throttle
Red to red

Now before you connect anything else, we need to check that the throttle is working

With the volt meter connected to minus (negative/black/ground) and set to DC volts

Check the voltage of the other wire on the throttle.
When you turn the throttle, the voltage on one of these wires will increase. This will be the next wire to connect.

But lets stop there for now and see if you can identify the correct wires on the throttle

 

[andla]

Thanks for the help with the proper youtube linking.

Here is the type of controller:
CE:G3M20211-1592-16
Here is a link in this forum:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22444

I Continue reading your instructions....

 

[NeilP]

Ok, so it is an unbranded one...E-bay?

show us some pics of the wires coming out the front so we can see each plug and the wires colours from each one

 

[andla]

Please post pictures of the other plugs.

Here is more footage of the other plugs.
[youtube]5VWmHduVS8M[/youtube]
Hmm it says video not available?
here is the full url: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWmHduVS8M


The first cable 000-004 in the video that has 5 wires should be connected to a hubmotor as described form a guy I talked with right now. But I don't have this on my crystalyte hubmotor.

By ground I mean negative= the black wire= the minus power from battery
My Crystalyte controller uses orange for ground, but black is convention

Do no go cutting off any more plugs

Let us know the make of the controller . is there a label on the back with wire code?. Picture of that too please
Some one who knows that exact controller may be able to tell you exactly which wire without needing to test each one.


The throttle has 4 wires? And coloured lights? a display for battery volts?

The throttle handle has 4 wires but the throttle cable attached to the controller has 3. That makes is a bit difficult for me .
Yes there is indicator lamps on and I think it is for battery.

Now to test the small wires from the controller.

1 Disconnect the soldered connection you have made, Why did you connect red and yellow to black and red?

It was the only combination that made the lamp work. So I figure that these need to be connected.

2 Put test meter to DC volts,

3 Connect black lead from volt meter to black on controller. Use the black from the battery for now. Nothing else connected. Just battery and one black lead from volt meter.

4 Now with other lead from volt meter, check the voltages on the wires. Check the other small coloured wires from the controller.

Connected black wire from my 36 volt battery as I think you mean and the other wire from battery not connected. Connected black wire from controller to my multimeter black contact. And red contact from multimeter to test the other colors of the wires that should be handle the throttle. I could only read millivolt that was fluctuating a lot from one wire. I really don't think this is what you mean because I think the controller need both black and red from battery to be able to work as normal.

I continue with the battery plugged in as normal.

Start with the wires you have cut
Do the red ones have about 5 volts on them? That is what you want.

When I connected red and black it has 5 volts from the cable that I connected to the throttle.

Also look for one that has battery voltage on it...this may or may not exist

Don't understand this.

If you find a group of 4 wires, a Black, a Red ( 5 volts ) and two other colours, one with Battery voltage. then this is the throttle connector. Do not connect the battery voltage wire to the throttle

I don't have any with 4 wires from the controller.

So I hope you have now identified at least one red wire with 5 volts on it

Connect this red 5 volt wire to red wire on the throttle.
It looks like you do not have a black wire on the throttle, this may be tricky. I would either hope that somone else recognises this throttle, and tells you what wires to connect, or you open the throttle up and take pictures of the wires and show us where they connect inside.

For the throttle to work the controller, you need three wires
Ground/Neutral/Minus
positive feed to throttle ( usually 5 volts I believe)
Signal out. this changes as the throttle is moved, fro m0 or 1 volt, up to 4 or 5 volts when the throttle is fully open

The 4th wire is the wire that reads battery voltage and makes the throttle lights work...not necessary for now to connect this



Now you have the controller connected to the battery...Black to Black, red to red

If you have managed to identify the throttle
negative
positive
Signal
Lights,

then connect Controller to throttle.
Controller black to minus on throttle
Red to red

Now before you connect anything else, we need to check that the throttle is working

With the volt meter connected to minus (negative/black/ground) and set to DC volts

Check the voltage of the other wire on the throttle.
When you turn the throttle, the voltage on one of these wires will increase. This will be the next wire to connect.

But lets stop there for now and see if you can identify the correct wires on the throttle

I will continue reading this later.
it is a bit difficult so I need to read this in small steps.
/andla

 

[andla]

I need help understanding 3 and 4.

 

[NeilP]

Am at work now, so not much time

But you DO NOT NEED the coloured lights to come on for throttle to work, that is just extra. Ignore the wire that makes the light come on.

I

3 Connect black lead from volt meter to black on controller. Use the black from the battery for now. Nothing else connected. Just battery and one black lead from volt meter.

What I mean is connect the black from the volte meter to the black from the battery and not any where else, but YES...Connect Black from battery to controller and Red from battery to controller

4 Now with other lead from volt meter, check the voltages on the wires. Check the other small coloured wires from the controller.

If you have found a 5 volt out from the controller then that is good, and Number 4 is complete


Now you should find you have three wires....Black ...Red with 5 volts...and one other colour...yellow...connect those to the throttle to, ignoring the wire that makes the light work.
So Red to Red, yellow to yellow, and black to the remaining one

That should make the throttle work the controller.

 

[andla]

Thanks Niel!
I'm also at work now. So I continue when I get home.
I understand what you mean now. I will try it.

I worry about not getting any power to the wheel even if I get the throttle working. You see the 5 wire cable I mention that should go to the hub motor. If that isn't connected then maybe things get fished up.
Well it is only to try it out when I get home.

Cheers
Andla

 

[andla]

I talked with a guy on crystalyte-europe.com and he seams to know a lot about this. So he said that this controller will not work with my motor because it has hull sensors. So a sensorless controller means a controller that doesn't require hull sensors. Hull sensors are the magnets in the motor and it determine the speed that way. The 5 pin cable is the hull sensor.

So I'm giving up on this controller and wait for the other controller.

Cheers

 

[NeilP]

that was going to be the next thing I was going to ask you about. I saw your mention of this, but did not want to discuss that at the same time as the throttle, for fear of confusing the two subjects

so you have a new Crystalyte sensor less motor? or a different one What motor do you have?

if it is a new Crystalyte sensor free motor? how did they sell it to you with no controller, that is not very good of them not to check you had the correct controller

and what controller have you ordered ? is it a new Crystalyte controller from Thijis at Crystalyte-Europe?

 

[andla]

I don't think they did any wrong. They sent all stuff controller, throttle, pedal sensor. The only thing was that under the time I was messing with the e-bike I didn't know that the controller was pedal sensor dependent. So me and my friend couldn't make the stuff work. Then I called crystalyte Europe and they told me that I need the pedal sensor to make it work. They were going to send me a new controller without this dependence but that would take until to Monday (or a few days more depending). Meanwhile I asked if I could use another temporary controller and that I could as long as the controller was brushless and sensorless.

When I visited a Swedish e-bike dealer and asked him for both things he didn't know what I meant with sensorless and didn't ask me about it but instead he assumed I wanted a brushless controller. That way I got a brushless controller with hull sensors (lucky me).

I'm going back to the crystalyte controller and let him help me install the pedal sensor (don't have all tools). As far as how much luck I had with all this I'll bet I will have to ride my bike back with muscle power. But if I get lucky then I will be the happiest guy on earth.

 

[NeilP]

OK, understand.

Just to avoid further confusion if talking to any one in future...they are Hall Sensors

They are three wire devices, and a motor with them in usually has three of them....sounds strange? 3 devices....3 wires each ...why not 9 wires I think you may ask

Well...each of these devices needs a positive and negative 5 volt connection and the third wire from each one is the output. So the 5 wires are :
Positive 5 volt
Negative
and then the signal wire from each hall sensor.

As a magnet passes close to the sensor, the signal wire emits a voltage....I believe proportional to the magnet strength.

this is often how many throttles work.


I do not know anything about any controllers being Pedal Sensor only activated. But I have only ever seen my two brushless sensor controllers, and they all work with throttle, but can also have a pedal sensor if you wish

Good luck with the rest of the build

 

[andla]

Thanks Neil.

Hall sensors and I wrote hull sensor LOL.

I will do the experiment following your previously instructions. I want to learn how this works.
BTW My friend told me that somebody on this forum build and are selling tools to check control boxes. I understand it can identify what is what in a controller and tell if it is working or not.
I think it was mrwhite or something. Do you know anything about that?

 

[NeilP]

Yes, Ed Lyen sells controller test units for Brushless Hall sensor motors and controllers

He also sells sensorless high spec controllers

Here is a link to his sale page for the controllers, I can't see the link to the tester sale page, but I am sure a PM to him will get you one of the testers

 

[Starson]

Andla, could you please follow this link and post a response to Starson. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28445&p=410301#p411553

Thanks,
Gary

 

[andla]

Andla, could you please follow this link and post a response to Starson. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28445&p=410301#p411553

Thanks,
Gary

Thanks Gary I didn't notice that I had more responses on that thread. I don't know an easy way to see responses to my threads.

 

[andla]

Yes, Ed Lyen sells controller test units for Brushless Hall sensor motors and controllers

He also sells sensorless high spec controllers

Here is a link to his sale page for the controllers, I can't see the link to the tester sale page, but I am sure a PM to him will get you one of the testers

Ok thanks Neil.

 

[NeilP]

Thanks Gary I didn't notice that I had more responses on that thread. I don't know an easy way to see responses to my threads.

When you post, make sure the tick / check box at the bottom of the page under Options that says " Notify Me when I reply is posted" is checked.

This can be set as default under your user Control Panel, Board Preferences

 

[andla]

Thanks Neil.
You know what.... I made the hub motor work with the original controller from crystalyte. It worked for about 1 minute and then the front fork got fished up. It worked because pedelec sensor got installed. The throttle didn't work as I expected. Tried just a little gas and it got to full power when I peddled. So something was fishy there. I used the original throttle and not the one with indicator lamps.
So I need a new front fork with really robust fork ends (don't know what it is called).

 

[NeilP]

Sounds like you need either a rear motor or at least make up some torque plates to hold the motor more securely in the front forks

 

[andla]

Sounds like you need either a rear motor or at least make up some torque plates to hold the motor more securely in the front forks

Going to downgrade to a 36v and change the fork to a heavy duty one. Going to be enough power with 40 amps.

 

[NeilP]

NO...don't downgrade..

I had to send my 65 amp controller back to be repaired as i cooked the outputs FETS and could not replace them my self, so have gone down to a 48 amp controller at 84 volts ( 70 to 83 volts)

It feels so slow now, after the 65 amp controller..I am not happy till I get my 65 amp Lyen controller back.

If yo ureduce your power, you will only have to go back and do it all again once you feel how slow it is..stick to the voltage and power you have and make the torque plates, you will only wish you had done it once you get the lower power unit back on the road