TESLA high performance tuning discusion

It makes alot more sence to me now so if someone said to me I have a 2000v ebike I'd know alot better.

I'm still of the opinion though that if the shell becomes live to dc inside you will be fine unless you have a path to ground and if the shell has a ground live fault then it's going to activate the protection near instantly and will only shock anyone at potential with a path to the battery ground. If a door was opened with a live shell and stepped out then I not sure on that outcome i have faith there would be a warning chassis live shutdown before anyone got hurt.

Crashing in the lake is a good point it's not going to be the best outcome at all in dirty water the occupants will be rigging along with the fish so there need to be massive thought to safety and an explosive disconnect of some sort.

There's a man that can pass 1 million volts through himself but it's controlled http://www.wondersofscience.org/sfs/MILLION.HTM

This is why we use 50/60hz ac in the home its is the best at throwing us off the supply dc and high frequency can hold us on and I've had a work mate that got stuck on a dc lighting circuit and cooked his hand phase fault across about inch of his hand cooked it well and had skin grafts etc ended up with a big dome like an egg in his hand.
 
Thinking about electric shock in an electric car ?.
The shell is always at ground potential and being inside so are you if the battery fails and becomes attached to the shell but doesn't activate a fail safe then what happens ?

The point between the battery's ground strap to body and the point of fault will start to flow electrons and with i/r losses in the frame it's going to get hot between these two points.
To get a shock you would have to get yourself between these two points then if your inside and grounded depending how close to the fault you touch from ground it will act like a variable resistance closer to the fault worst the outcome.

Same as circuit boards keep all high voltages separate to stop the not so funny smoke, but for cabling its to stop a dangourous fault reaching you and releasing the smoke.
 
Getting back on topic...Tuning the P90D...
It would seem Tesla have donesome of this with the changes between the P90D and the current P100D which has obvously had the power/torque boosted, most likely by subtle software/firmware changes.
So, i suspect if someone has the smarts and resources there is more to be squeezed out of the current package by stirring up those software limitations.
From a more basic .."quick and dirty" attempt, since there doesnt seem to be a traction problem, i might suggest swapping out those 21" rims for some 19" or 18" with the lowest profile tires to take 10% off the rolling diameter which would have the same effect as increasing the torque by 10% .....and hence increase the accellerating force by 10% ?
 
Hillhater said:
Getting back on topic...Tuning the P90D...
It would seem Tesla have donesome of this with the changes between the P90D and the current P100D which has obvously had the power/torque boosted, most likely by subtle software/firmware changes.
So, i suspect if someone has the smarts and resources there is more to be squeezed out of the current package by stirring up those software limitations.
From a more basic .."quick and dirty" attempt, since there doesnt seem to be a traction problem, i might suggest swapping out those 21" rims for some 19" or 18" with the lowest profile tires to take 10% off the rolling diameter which would have the same effect as increasing the torque by 10% .....and hence increase the accellerating force by 10% ?
Click to expand...

Thats not likely to help at low speeds. You will have 2 things making it loose traction
1 the contact patch from the smaller diameter is smaller.
2 the contact patch from the lower profile tire not being able to flex will be smaller.

Another thing to point out is Big sidewalls would be better like a 15" tire with a big 60 or 70 series sidewall then you run it at something like 5-7 psi and the tire will flatten on the ground but also twist up and wrinkle to make a smaller radius at launch so its like a variable speed transmission.
 
Ianhill said:
Thinking about electric shock in an electric car ?.
The shell is always at ground potential and being inside so are you if the battery fails and becomes attached to the shell but doesn't activate a fail safe then what happens ?

The point between the battery's ground strap to body and the point of fault will start to flow electrons and with i/r losses in the frame it's going to get hot between these two points.
To get a shock you would have to get yourself between these two points then if your inside and grounded depending how close to the fault you touch from ground it will act like a variable resistance closer to the fault worst the outcome.

Same as circuit boards keep all high voltages separate to stop the not so funny smoke, but for cabling its to stop a dangourous fault reaching you and releasing the smoke.
Click to expand...


So you touch any side of the battery to chassis (Traction packs don't have ground they have + and -) and when you touch the chassis you are now connected to 800v potential. So what happens when you need to work on any part of the HV system and you are now in the circuit? Grab 800v + in 1 hand and - in the other and you will be dead I promise... Don't try it just take my word for it.
 
Arlo1 said:
Hillhater said:
.
From a more basic .."quick and dirty" attempt, since there doesnt seem to be a traction problem, i might suggest swapping out those 21" rims for some 19" or 18" with the lowest profile tires to take 10% off the rolling diameter which would have the same effect as increasing the torque by 10% .....and hence increase the accellerating force by 10% ?
Click to expand...

Thats not likely to help at low speeds. You will have 2 things making it loose traction
1 the contact patch from the smaller diameter is smaller.
2 the contact patch from the lower profile tire not being able to flex will be smaller.....
Click to expand...
..you forgot the 3 rd thing ...the extra 10% drive force !
....but since there has been no suggestion that the Tesla On the limit of traction, and that the accelleration is currently only limited by available power (torque), it would be fair probability of working and a simple change to try .
 
Why go after more acceleration? How long will tires - gear boxes last before you have a PR issue? As is, it is much more than most drivers should have access to given the distraction epidemic. I am surprised you can even get insurance for this as is. One positive would be there would be more second hand cells for us to salvage from more wrecks. :lol: Friction I always understood is calculated as force times coefficient, so contact patch would not change much of anything. Understand that other factors play key rolls, but the physics remain. Looks to be a bunch more they can get out of it, but..... Why?
 
I think the Tesla is traction limited up to a certain speed where torque falls off sufficiently. This would be the point that the traction control system stops interfering.

Friction in the real world isn't as simple as basic models suggest. Bigger tyres usually really do give more grip.
 
I do recall that the main pack fuse with an issue with the Tesla's: They had to limit the max normal discharge in order to ensure there was sufficient overhead to blow the main fuse in the event of a fault. So they introduced the electronic disconnect that was more sensitive, so the ratio of normal to fault current could be higher, and so increased the max normal discharge current. If you're racing then arguably you could do without this safety feature and discharge the pack at whatever it can muster.
 
The whole wheel thing may not be worth arguing over anyways. Does anyone know if a wheel smaller than 19inches will clear the brake calipers? I believe they have 14 inch rotors and most cars with brakes that size can't go smaller than a 19 due to clearance. That has been a small annoyance to me on one of my vehicles.
 
Hillhater said:
..you forgot the 3 rd thing ...the extra 10% drive force !
....but since there has been no suggestion that the Tesla On the limit of traction, and that the accelleration is currently only limited by available power (torque), it would be fair probability of working and a simple change to try .
Click to expand...

No I didn't
1 the tires that have tall sidewall will wrinkle and create a gear reduction effect giving you increased torque while adding traction.
2 Tesla acceleration is limited to traction as it is and they use traction control to make them work well.
 
Thinking about an evs layout there's going to be two main voltages unlike a ice car, so would I be right in thinking the body shares a common negative with the inverter and battery so the Interior loom uses the body for its grounds like a ice car ? I'm interested in the overall design as regards to the neutral.

I would grab 800v as long as I'm fully insulated either in a chain mail suit or if I'm on an insulating plate I'm fine the air around me acts as an insulator, once I get close enough to ground the air will brake down and I'll let a spark out and the flow will go across my two points of contact the higher the voltage larger the spark gap can jump so I get your concern but inside the vehicle its fine and easily detectable so I'm still of the mind 360 vs 800 yes the spark gap is larger but the Faraday cage your sat in saves your life.

Watch the hv workers repairing the grid live they use an anti spark wond to get the chopper at the same potential then work on the lines they where saying they tingle first second or two equalising to the line then have to discharge themself's before stepping back to earth just like a big human cap.
 
Arlo1 said:
Hillhater said:
..you forgot the 3 rd thing ...the extra 10% drive force !
....but since there has been no suggestion that the Tesla On the limit of traction, and that the accelleration is currently only limited by available power (torque), it would be fair probability of working and a simple change to try .
Click to expand...

No I didn't
1 the tires that have tall sidewall will wrinkle and create a gear reduction effect giving you increased torque while adding traction.
2 Tesla acceleration is limited to traction as it is and they use traction control to make them work well.
Click to expand...

..well you only suggested 2 :wink:
But you do accept that a smaller rolling radius tire would help ...providing there is enough traction ?
But as mentioned above, much below 19/18" rims are unlikely to fit without other major changes, which is why i didnt suggest anything smaller.
19" with 30 ratio 245s would reduce the rolling dia 10%.... Enough to notice a difference ...if there is one .!
18" ? Or 285/25s. ?.....Even better if they fit.
Again,..where is it suggested that traction is a problem, or that traction control is limiting accelleration ?
Doesnt Lidicrous/Warp mode disable much of that anyway ?
Even if there is a traction problem, there are a host of stickyer tyres to consider , even just on stock sizes which should also show an improvement....but something tells me someone would have nailed that option already ?
..and if traction is a problem
 
In a Tesla traction control makes it accelerate faster because the tires are at their limits to about 45mph
 
I guess it is time someone slaps some good drag radials on one of them to see what will happen. Has this been done yet? My assumption was that at stock weight and power levels it had enough weight transfer to negate the need...
 
Arlo1 said:
In a Tesla traction control makes it accelerate faster because the tires are at their limits to about 45mph
Click to expand...
But each time they increase the power/torque, the initial accelleration "G" force increases , and the 0-30 time reduces ?
..which suggests that traction has not been a limiting factor...yet !
 
Tesla themself's are entering the gt series as a yard stick
The car is now 1100 pounds lighter along with hardware optimizations
100kw battery with 585kw at the motor and 995nm of torque
Runs pirreli pzero slicks
Gets 0-62mph in 2.1 seconds and tops out at 250km/H

This car is setup for fast track racing and gets 2.1 seconds :D
If it was set for drags it would drop 0-60 in under 2 seconds and maybe see a high 8's low 9 second 1/4 mile pass stock p100d seems to be around 11 seconds with a 500kg disadvantage and 10kw or so down which is damn impressive for an all rounder stock car.
 
Hillhater said:
Arlo1 said:
In a Tesla traction control makes it accelerate faster because the tires are at their limits to about 45mph
Click to expand...
But each time they increase the power/torque, the initial accelleration "G" force increases , and the 0-30 time reduces ?
..which suggests that traction has not been a limiting factor...yet !
Click to expand...

It is. They are changing things not listed.
Tire compounds, suspension settings, slip start and other software settings that allow the traction control to find better acceleration.
The traction control with AWD is very tricky to get perfect. They need to allow all 4 wheels to slip just enough to get optimal traction.
I think the number is ~10% slip gives the most acceleration.
When you see all the other work going on behind the scenes you will understand its all about the computer driving the car.
Many of the performance updates are from over the air software updates that lower 0-60 times

A up to date p90dL has the same 0-30 times that a p100dl has. But some of the things you see in the data over the net is from old software running the cars.
 
Ianhill said:
Thinking about an evs layout there's going to be two main voltages unlike a ice car, so would I be right in thinking the body shares a common negative with the inverter and battery so the Interior loom uses the body for its grounds like a ice car ? I'm interested in the overall design as regards to the neutral.
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any EV where the HV traction system uses the chassis as a ground and shares it with the 12V aux system. Just on initial inspection that seems like a very, very bad idea!
 
Punx0r said:
Ianhill said:
Thinking about an evs layout there's going to be two main voltages unlike a ice car, so would I be right in thinking the body shares a common negative with the inverter and battery so the Interior loom uses the body for its grounds like a ice car ? I'm interested in the overall design as regards to the neutral.
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any EV where the HV traction system uses the chassis as a ground and shares it with the 12V aux system. Just on initial inspection that seems like a very, very bad idea!
Click to expand...

If the ground is the inverter negative then the inverter is always in standby ?, so this is why Teslas use a small amount of power just sat there idol, So the inverter output would be the body ground and it does not share a common ground with the battery so there's even less risk of shock from the high voltage side.

I only asked as I seen a video where a guy flattened his Tesla leaving it at the airport for a few weeks with it near empty so I thought if it's got no power to run inverter it won't trigger the contactor and stuck in a non charge situation. I do think there is a service port for such a problem.
 
If the car never really turns off, And can be updated over the air, has full access to all its data parameters and can be disactivated from a far then it's a spy that can track our habits just like a phone with a non removable battery and most have this design now. so it's a constant spy for world goverments, I seen tesla have been implementing a power restrictor to some users that have been abusing the car so it's obvious they can tap into your car check how you use it and cap your power usage at any time and even though they have removed this function with the latest update, they are still going to be watching users data and habits.

X.com or PayPal as it later become was created to make banking easier through a middle man that keeps your data and things private then sells it, so data tracking seems to be bit of a habit of old Elon he is watching people like hawks and making money from it.

It's strange how he has had over 4 billions in goverment funding, the fact it's a spy machine helps, Google got the Internet on lock down so there's literally no where left to hide but underground.

I always wondered why they lived in the sewers in demolition man, there's your answer Elon made the cars, and goggle run the machine stallon used to get paper to wipe his arse, thinking about it the film had driverless cars it's been quite an accurate vision of the path our future has taken.
 
What are you on about?

You say if the inverter has its own ground (negative connection, really) then it must always be on, which must be the cause of the parasitic drain on Teslas which is also proof they are spy machines for the "the government"?

I think it's safe to assume:

1) The HV traction system on the Tesla (or any other EV) is totally isolated from the chassis or any other electrical system
2) The car has a number of systems that require constant power and these total the parasitic drain when the car is left parked
3) Paranoid conspiracy theorists are everywhere
 
Punx0r said:
1) The HV traction system on the Tesla (or any other EV) is totally isolated from the chassis or any other electrical system
Click to expand...

I could have researched a bit or had a reasearch and dug through the service manual to get this info but I was confused to how the car would turn on and off when the inverter powers down but it clearly does not. With out grounding the body or a backup battery it be hard to fully turn off and back on so they must have choose to never power down fully to simplify.

Punx0r said:
2) The car has a number of systems that require constant power and these total the parasitic drain when the car is left parked
Click to expand...

I understand the bms needs to monitor the battery and the microphones the cabin :)

Punx0r said:
3) Paranoid conspiracy theorists are everywhere
Click to expand...
I'm not a conspiracy nut I know there's a lot of bullshite out there most from me, We must always make our own opinions but in a modern age of cyber warfare it's a bit whacky to make a car that has constant access to all its systems and can modify them, when or if the source code leaks for the OS people will be slipping cars into walls with ease just like the CIA :mrgreen:
 
Ianhill said:
Punx0r said:
Ianhill said:
Thinking about an evs layout there's going to be two main voltages unlike a ice car, so would I be right in thinking the body shares a common negative with the inverter and battery so the Interior loom uses the body for its grounds like a ice car ? I'm interested in the overall design as regards to the neutral.
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any EV where the HV traction system uses the chassis as a ground and shares it with the 12V aux system. Just on initial inspection that seems like a very, very bad idea!
Click to expand...

If the ground is the inverter negative then the inverter is always in standby ?, so this is why Teslas use a small amount of power just sat there idol, So the inverter output would be the body ground and it does not share a common ground with the battery so there's even less risk of shock from the high voltage side.

I only asked as I seen a video where a guy flattened his Tesla leaving it at the airport for a few weeks with it near empty so I thought if it's got no power to run inverter it won't trigger the contactor and stuck in a non charge situation. I do think there is a service port for such a problem.
Click to expand...
You are confusing inverter as in traction motor controller which is the main inverter or inverters in the D cars. With the isolated DC/DC converter. The 360v/12v isolated DC/DC is there to run the 12v systems and the 12v side is grounded to chassis. But the main motor controllers (inverters) are not grounded to the chassis as they share common - witt the 360v battery.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top