Tesla model S plaid motor 30 lbs, 400 hp perfect high power ebike motor?

[raylo32]

This motor??

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/01/tesla-plaid-fire/

 

[MitchJi]

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-secret-killer-upgrade/

Tesla did not waste any time highlighting the Model S Plaid’s killer metric: 0-60 mph in 1.99 seconds. This figure, which can be attained on a prepped drag strip as per MotorTrend‘s formal tests, has effectively dominated news about the flagship sedan — so much so that some of the vehicle’s other notable capabilities have been overshadowed. Among these are its 60-130 mph time, which is arguably the Model S Plaid’s true killer metric.

What has to be said is that the Model S Plaid is a car that continues to pull really strongly far beyond 60 mph. This could be experienced in the vehicle’s acceleration and power at higher speeds. Tests of the Tesla Model S Plaid have revealed that the flagship sedan could go from 60-130 mph in 4.71 seconds. This is undoubtedly impressive on its own, but when one compares this to the 60-130 mph performance of some of the world’s best supercars and electric cars, one could see just how far Tesla has gone with the Model S Plaid.

A stock McLaren 765LT, arguably one of the best supercars today, goes from 60-130 mph in 4.76 seconds. The McLaren P1, one of the “Holy Trinity” of hypercars, does the same in 4.8 seconds. The Ferrari SF90 accelerates from 60-130 mph in 4.97 seconds, while the Ferrari LaFerrari, another one of the hypercar “Holy Trinity,” achieves the same feat in about 5 seconds. These numbers, however, are not the most shocking part of the Model S Plaid’s 60-130 mph performance.....

his could be seen in the Model S Raven Performance’s drag races against the Porsche Taycan Turbo S, a vehicle with a two-speed transmission that achieves 60-130 mph in 8.1 seconds.....

This would not be happening with the Model S Plaid. Looking at the vehicle’s 4.71-second 60-130 mph capability, it seems safe to state that Tesla, in its continued pursuit to improve its flagship sedan, effectively made the Model S Plaid twice as quick at 60-130 mph as its previously quickest Model S. Interestingly enough, the Model S Plaid’s high-speed capabilities are rarely highlighted by the company, perhaps because its 1.99-second 0-60 mph time is a more compelling metric.

What is truly remarkable with the Model S Plaid’s 60-130 mph time is that Tesla was able to achieve these figures through its own means. Porsche was able to provide the Taycan Turbo S with amazing high-speed performance using a two-speed gearbox, a mark of its pedigree as a veteran sports car maker. Tesla, on the other hand, was able to attain the Model S’ unearthly metrics using carbon-wrapped electric motors and continued improvements to its battery tech, highlighting its roots in tech and Elon Musk’s physics-heavy background.

 

[MitchJi]

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tes...-innovative-carbon-wrapped-motor-for-roadster

“As far as we know, this is the first time there has been a production electric motor with a carbon-coated rotor. This is an extremely difficult thing, because carbon and copper have very different rates of thermal expansion. To have a carbon-coated rotor, you need to wrap it with extremely high intensity and this is extremely difficult to do."

Today via Twitter, the head of the company shared some more details. Musk said that the fiber is wound over the rotor at a high tension load, which previously could not be achieved on a large production scale. Tesla Automation, which is based in Germany, made a machine for this. At the beginning of May, it was noticed that construction had begun near the company's facility in Prüm. It is likely that the new building will house production lines for new machines that are needed to produce the innovative motors that will power Model S Plaid and Roadster, according to Musk.

The main benefit of the new motor is that the carbon sleeve rotor creates a stronger electromagnetic field than a rotor that is held together by metal, the head of the company explained. Another advantage is that the rotor can go to higher RPM as the carbon sleeve stops the copper rotor from expanding due to radial acceleration. Thus, Tesla's new motor is the most advanced motor in production on Earth.

Nevertheless, the company does not intend to be satisfied with what has already been achieved, which generally applies to any product created by it. Musk said that Tesla already has several ideas to further increase torque and maximum RPM for the new Roadster, which should begin production soon. As such, there’s no doubt the Roadster will have the most effective and innovative equipment, the analogs of which do not exist today.

 

[MitchJi]

Its always a trial reading Hillhater's posts to filter out the facts from the predictions, speculation, teasers, and mostly plain BS.

 

[MitchJi]

Single helical stage per motor per rear wheel to eliminate the differential is fantastic. Differentials are vestigial internal combustion components.

You count the reduction gears as part of the motor?!

When you compare a motor that requires reduction gears against motors that don't, it's unrealistic and disingenuous not to include the gears.

Every motor requires reduction gears and frequently an additional reduction at the differential for optimum performance. This motor requires less reduction gearing than conventional motors. Check the power curve:

 

[MitchJi]

Single helical stage per motor per rear wheel to eliminate the differential is fantastic. Differentials are vestigial internal combustion components.

You count the reduction gears as part of the motor?!

When you compare a motor that requires reduction gears against motors that don't, it's unrealistic and disingenuous not to include the gears.

Every motor requires reduction gears and frequently an additional reduction at the differential for optimum performance. This motor requires less reduction gearing than conventional motors. Check the power curve (y axis is hp, x axis is vehicle speed) :

 

[liveforphysics]

After a week, I still get giddy to drive it. The range with it can be >300miles driving gently, but with >1,000hp at your foots discretion, I seem to be averaging around 100-150miles to a charge, but it's the best miles of your life. That's not the cars fault a bit for my low range numbers, just so fun to use the go-pedal at every safe opportunity and feel the thrust like you're being fired out of a cannon.

So far only corvettes have tried to race with it in the freeway. You hear this sudden loud V8 engine roar beside you, and you pin it, the engine noise instantly starts becoming a softer more distant noise behind you.

For some perspective on acceleration, this car does 60-120mph in 4.7sec, which I think it's more impressive to experience than it's ~2sec 0-60mph. It's the greatest vehicle I've experienced to date with nothing as a comparative second best, and I've driven Ferraris and Lamborghinis and Porsches.

Unlimited Love,
-Luke

 

[Hillhater]

Single helical stage per motor per rear wheel to eliminate the differential is fantastic. Differentials are vestigial internal combustion components.

And using a second motor + transmission + inverter, etc etc....is a simplification,? weight saving,? cost reduction ?
But no, differentials are a simple way to divide the drive from any single motor drive ..ICE or Electric. No more “vestigial” than using a geared transmission. !

...Every motor requires reduction gears and frequently an additional reduction at the differential for optimum performance. This motor requires less reduction gearing than conventional motors. Check the power curve (y axis is hp, x axis is vehicle speed) :

Plenty of motors that do not need reduction gears..Ebike / moto DD hubs are a obvious example, and there have been cars built using wheel hub motors.
What do you mean by “less reduction gearing” ?....compared to which conventional motors ?
P.S....that Power/Road speed chart tells us nothing about reduction gearing ?

 

[MitchJi]

...Every motor requires reduction gears and frequently an additional reduction at the differential for optimum performance. Thi motor requestings less reduction gearing than conventional motors. Check the power curve (y axis is hp, x axis is vehicle speed) :

Plenty of motors that do not need reduction gears..Ebike / moto DD hubs are a obvious example, and there have been cars built using wheel hub motors.
What do you mean by “less reduction gearing” ?....compared to which conventional motors ?
P.S....that Power/Road speed chart tells us nothing about reduction gearing ?

I clearly stated for optimum performance! DD hub motors sacrifice performance for simplicity. You could obviously run that motor on a MS-MX with zero reduction and still have great performance.

PS The chart would buy useful for determining the reduction required for optimum performance.

 

[nicobie]

Luke, do you own one of these monsters?

I'm jealous.

I swear, if I could get my hands on one of those rear power units, I'd build one last race car and go out in style.



Nick

 

[Hillhater]

......
I clearly stated for optimum performance! DD hub motors sacrifice performance for simplicity. You could obviously run that motor on a MS-MX with zero reduction and still have great performance.

PS The chart would buy useful for determining the reduction required for optimum performance.

But you have to define “optimum performance”..?
Is it max accelleration ?
.....max speed ?
.....max range ?
....max efficiency ?
.....max power/ weight ?

.? And how do you figure you could run that motor on anything with “zero reduction” with optimum performance ?
And you do realise that chart shows the original P100D motor is a lot more powerful than the new one !

 

[MitchJi]

I swear, if I could get my hands on one of those rear power units.

Nick

Junk yard in 6-12 months.

 

[liveforphysics]

Luke, do you own one of these monsters?

I'm jealous.

I swear, if I could get my hands on one of those rear power units, I'd build one last race car and go out in style.



Nick

Come visit anytime Nick, and I will let you rip in the Plaid. We already have 3000miles on it in just a few weeks of having it.

I agree with you too, the Plaid rear subframe/motor assembly is the best hotrod/racecar swap option made right now. I want to put a Plaid Model S rear subframe into some tiny lightweight chassis.

 

[nicobie]

I'd like to put one in a type 10 Score off road race car. I've been involved with a couple of those, also type 1600 cars in stadium races.

Luke has visited the shop where they were built.

 

[liveforphysics]

It makes a 5000lbs car feel like its being fired out of a cannon, so I think it would be just the right amount of power for a lightweight off-road car. I loved seeing that awesome off-road hotrod shop you shared with me! Thank you my friend!

 

[The Toecutter]

I want to see them take this powertrain and use a more power-dense battery, and have it in a complete small streamliner sports car with less than half the mass and less than half the aero drag of the Model S Plaid. Imagine what one horsepower per kilogram would be like with an AWD electric powertrain.

How does 0-120 mph in ~4.5 seconds sound? Or only needing ~120 Wh/mi to cruise along at 70 mph on the freeway? All you have to give up is planned obsolescence and the pursuit of style over substance, and do it in a package comparable in dimension to a classic MGB or Triumph sports car and tell any whiny lardasses when they complain they can't fit in it to go lose some weight.

The batteries to make this possible are available off the shelf:

https://lonestarevperformance.com/sleeper-cells.html

With a proper focus on streamlining and efficiency, you won't need an energy-dense battery to get competitive range, provided you keep your right foot properly disciplined. Such a thing would be untouchable on a race track.

 

[liveforphysics]

The crazy thing is, the existing model S chassis is much lower drag than any of the old MGs or similar small older cars. It's lower drag and less energy to move the model S chassis around than my 2001 Honda Insight, which had none of the utilitarian function, interior space and passenger space all sacrificed for efficiency, and the model S is more efficient as a 5 seater luxo-box.

I also want to see how it feels with the same HP in a 2000lbs car vs it's current 4700lbs weight, and I agree high enough C-rate cells exist for it, but I don't see it ending up with lower Wh/mile (for highway at least) than the stock Model S.

 

[The Toecutter]

The crazy thing is, the existing model S chassis is much lower drag than any of the old MGs or similar small older cars. It's lower drag and less energy to move the model S chassis around than my 2001 Honda Insight, which had none of the utilitarian function, interior space and passenger space all sacrificed for efficiency, and the model S is more efficient as a 5 seater luxo-box.

All true, but the Model S has a much larger frontal area than those small sports cars, and still makes concession to styling at the expense of ultimate streamlining. The Model S Plaid has a Cd of 0.21 and an area of 25.4 sq ft. This is a CdA of 5.33 ft^2. This CdA is indeed similar to that of the much smaller 1st gen Honda Insight.

The Insight had a drag coefficient of 0.25, which while better than any production car sold at the time, was still highly compromised in the name of styling. The GM EV1 for comparison had a 0.19, and there was plenty of bickering between the aerodynamacists and the marketing team on that one as well as explained in Michael Shnayerson's book, "The Car That Could: The Inside Story Behind GM's Revolutionary Electric Vehicle".

A "no-compromises" shape going for all-out aero efficiency in a car would have a drag coefficient approaching 0.11 as the solar race cars do, perhaps even less(My Milan SL velomobile has a 0.08).

I also want to see how it feels with the same HP in a 2000lbs car vs it's current 4700lbs weight, and I agree high enough C-rate cells exist for it, but I don't see it ending up with lower Wh/mile (for highway at least) than the stock Model S.

While those old sports cars had a terrible drag coefficient, on the order of 0.4 or higher, they had very small frontal areas. My Triumph GT6 EV conversion has a frontal area of 14.9 ft^2. I haven't gotten to test it to get Wh/mi figures yet since I don't even have a drivers license. If someone built a car of the same size and frontal area, but streamlined it to have a drag coefficient of 0.16(the same as the 2000 GM Precept sedan), it would have a CdA of 2.38 ft^2, less than half the aero drag of the Model S Plaid. With less than half the drag and weight, it could easily consume half the energy or less per mile at the same speed.

There are hobbyist EV conversions that can do 60 mph on around 120 Wh/mi, such as Reverend Gadget's GT6-bodied Triumph Spitfire, where he paid some attention to aero(especially the grille opening and underside) without altering the stock appearance. It uses a motor much less efficient than that found in the Model S Plaid, an ADC 6.7" series wound DC motor, which probably gets 75-80% efficiency in typical use, so there's room for improvement in that one for sure.

One could go much lower than that even, especially with a one-seater. My home-built electric velomobile consumes about 15-20 Wh/mi @ 45 mph(depending on how hard I'm pedaling, never tried it with throttle only), and if I electrified the Milan SL, I suspect I'd cut that consumption at that speed to about 1/3 with 100W of pedaling.

 

[liveforphysics]

https://www.copart.com/lot/52623681/

You can find out by winning that wrecked Plaid auction.

 

[The Toecutter]

Nowhere to keep it, unfortunately. I want that drive system though!

Currently have a 208V pack of CALB CA100FI batteries running a Soliton 1 controller and Prestolite MTC4001 motor in the GT6. I don't know if the drive system in the PLAID could run off of that low of a pack voltage, and if it could not, the question becomes what condition is the battery pack in the wrecked PLAID in?

That motor is so light and the 2170 batteries in the Model 3 so dense that the two combined open up the possibility of a 300 mile range conversion that is hundreds of lbs less in weight than as it came with a gasoline engine! I'd only need about 250 horsepower to do 0-60 mph ~ 3 seconds like that... I don't have the funds or the workspace yet, but assuming I stay employed in my current job for long enough, I eventually will.

*drool*

 

[Hillhater]

That motor is so light and the 2170 batteries in the Model 3 so dense that the two combined open up the possibility of a 300 mile range conversion that is hundreds of lbs less in weight than as it came with a gasoline engine! I'd only need about 250 horsepower to do 0-60 mph ~ 3 seconds like that...

I suspect that you,..like most of us,.. do not actually know the weight of the Plaid drive train ( motor + tranmission).
All we know is that we are told one rotor is 30 lbs.
If you only really need 250 hp, you would be better off ( weight wise, and financially),.. finding a P100D rear motor, or the STANDARD Model 3 motor assy,....both of which have much more than that power , AND LESS WEIGHT than the Plaid motor assy.
..and will be available at a much lower cost from the recyclers.....:wink:

 

[nicobie]

I wonder what that auction will go for?

Probably out of my league...

 

[liveforphysics]

I wonder what that auction will go for?

Probably out of my league...

Keep an eye on it Nick. I could see the first couple being pricey, but I bet they go for under $20-35k depending on the wreck damage. In many ways it's an incredible bargain.