Tesla P85D Insane Mode

Punx0r - you are absolutely right, American chauvinism doesn't sell well overseas - please understand that's my pride in seeing the US automotive industry rebound, but it certainly isn't a Tesla sales pitch, just my humble opinion. If it is any consolation, I thoroughly enjoyed visiting Maranello and I think there are beautiful cars coming out of Italy, Germany and the UK - I would be quite happy in a MacLaren, Jag F Type, Porsche 918 or Ferrari 458...I would just have no place for the kids.

You are also right on that people make decisions on super luxury vehicles based on irrational factors. Does a Mercedes Maybach really need a 500 hp twin turbo...no, of course not...but you clearly understand what Chalo won't recognize which is this thing called "Fantasy marketing". As another example, for years Jeep has been running ads with the tagline "Only in a Jeep" with videos of a guy driving to the top of a rocky outcropping in the desert southwest. Nowadays these types of ads are just CGI, but years ago ad agencies went to great lengths to get vehicles into places where they certainly didn't belong (like National Parks and designated scenic monuments). The irony is that by and large Jeep SUV's are grocery getters for soccer moms, not vehicles made to explore the outer reaches (not unlike the Land Rovers prattling about the upscale neighborhoods of the UK and US). Of course the Mini Cooper is doing the same thing with Dakar.

Chalo, I understand your distaste for the "faster and furious" bunch, but Americans love their cars. You aren't going to change it, and no politician will survive trying to confiscate or limit raw horsepower. You can see for yourself the flop of the Google "self driving car" vs. the excitement of the Tesla "autopilot". Americans love to drive. With autopilot they get the best of both worlds, they can turn on an autopilot and make a phone call or surf the web when they are stuck in 5mph traffic, or if they please they can also duck and weave to get around a jam or a slow truck if they want to. I might suggest that people take pride in driving and playing the game, and dodging traffic to get home faster; the people who would rather not play that game are probably already riding the train or the metro.

If you want clean technologies to win you have to captivate a person's sense of excitement and pleasure from great performance, not try to tell people that they are wrong to feel the adrenaline of a 3 or 4 second zero to sixty time. We tried to change human nature once, it was called prohibition...didn't work out too well. The better plan is to captivate the senses with better engineering, performance and design - and then improve safety with things like traction control, digital electric AWD, an ultra low center of gravity and 1G skidpad, and the best safety rating of any vehicle ever tested in history. Tesla does all of those things.

Where EV's or Hybrids win is when the beauty and performance of their design blows away legacy ICE solutions, when a kid's bedroom wall has a Tesla, a Zero motorcycle, or a Hybrid i8/Porsche 918 or LaFerrari as they do today we are on the right track.
 
Arvicola Terrestris said:
[.
I repeat myself: " the fleet administrators (cars) in the municipals"

And repair cost is more then accident repairs, it's oil, brake pads, air filters, spark plugs, fuel filters, oil filters. The electric car group at my university reports that their biggest expense is polishing brake discs (because of regen. breaking, they are hardly used and gets rusty)


Here is a link for an 2014 article about the subject.
http://politiken.dk/forbrugogliv/biler/ECE2380162/kommuner-giver-elbiler-nyt-liv/

And for those that can't read Danish, Google have translated the first 25% of the article:

Electric cars have traditionally had a reputation for being expensive, but after a few years of running in Copenhagen Municipality fleet municipality has managed to push prices down.

It now costs the same to lease electric cars as petrol cars - 2,600 dollars a month - but the electric car typically uses only 500 kroner fuel at petrol car's 1,500.

"It is extremely encouraging that electric cars today are the optimal choice, even if you look at it from an economic perspective," said Morten Kabell (EL), Technical and Environmental Mayor of Copenhagen.

He therefore aims to more than double the number of electric cars in less than eighteen months; from 124 today - against 162 petrol cars - to 251 by the end of next year.

And this article is from 2012 in an Engineering newspaper:
http://ing.dk/artikel/flere-og-flere-kommuner-korer-i-elbiler-130817

And again a part translated from the article:
More and more Danish municipalities choose electricity when they need new cars in the fleet. A new study shows that just over half of the municipalities - 55 percent - now have electric vehicles in their fleet. In addition, just under half are already plans for more electric cars on the roads in 2013.

And that is good news, says Michael Rask, Special Consultant in Energy Agency.

"For the private consumer's purchase price is crucial when buying a new car, electric cars are still more expensive than conventional cars. But electric cars are cheaper to run than regular cars, and owners of large fleets, for example, municipalities, recognizes greater the advantage in their calculations, "he explains.

.??..$2600 per month lease cost ?...what cars is he referring to ? ..Tesla S and Porsche ?
Oil, filters, pads etc are NOT a significant running cost, and repeat, low cost, fixed price servicing is becoming the norm.
The major component of any vehicle servicing is LABOUR costs, and that can only be increasing as cars become more complex and specialised .
Even fuel is not a major component for an average car commuter. Depreciation, insurance, parking, tolls etc are all much bigger cost factors in my experience.
So, again, until I see some real comparative figures for say a Leaf vs a Pulsar ( electric vs ICE versions of the same car),
....I won't be swallowing the running cost argument.
 
People wanting quick, fast, not very practical cars comes down to the human condition. It's what got the human race to this level of life, not wanting just to survive, but looking up at the birds and wanting to fly. Anyone trying to sell something to the average person has got to take this fact into the design. As society gets more affluent, it's only going to perpetuate itself. Look at the style of the cars of the 1950's and 1960's, they were selling the dream of a rocketship or jet airplane on wheels.

I would hate to lose the desire to go faster, get there quicker, have more fun. Might as well get me a stock European E-bike :cry:
 
What i find impressive is the amount of electrical current when in insane mode...

It'a about 700hp ( 522kW) and we know the batteri is 375V that's 1392 amp !!! ( battery current !!)

1400A is a bit high for the 2/0 wire in the "D" pack !! For the 96 groups of 74 cells in parallel, that's about 18 amp per 18650 cells! or 6C !

2014-08-19%2018.05.12-1280.jpg


2014-08-19%2018.09.40-1280.jpg




Oh and apparently it is possible to get the cell voltage on the TESLA from the big screen i a diagnostic mode:

attachment.php
 
Hillhater said:
Arvicola Terrestris said:
[.
I repeat myself: " the fleet administrators (cars) in the municipals"

And repair cost is more then accident repairs, it's oil, brake pads, air filters, spark plugs, fuel filters, oil filters. The electric car group at my university reports that their biggest expense is polishing brake discs (because of regen. breaking, they are hardly used and gets rusty)


Here is a link for an 2014 article about the subject.
http://politiken.dk/forbrugogliv/biler/ECE2380162/kommuner-giver-elbiler-nyt-liv/

And for those that can't read Danish, Google have translated the first 25% of the article:

Electric cars have traditionally had a reputation for being expensive, but after a few years of running in Copenhagen Municipality fleet municipality has managed to push prices down.

It now costs the same to lease electric cars as petrol cars - 2,600 dollars a month - but the electric car typically uses only 500 kroner fuel at petrol car's 1,500.

"It is extremely encouraging that electric cars today are the optimal choice, even if you look at it from an economic perspective," said Morten Kabell (EL), Technical and Environmental Mayor of Copenhagen.

He therefore aims to more than double the number of electric cars in less than eighteen months; from 124 today - against 162 petrol cars - to 251 by the end of next year.

And this article is from 2012 in an Engineering newspaper:
http://ing.dk/artikel/flere-og-flere-kommuner-korer-i-elbiler-130817

And again a part translated from the article:
More and more Danish municipalities choose electricity when they need new cars in the fleet. A new study shows that just over half of the municipalities - 55 percent - now have electric vehicles in their fleet. In addition, just under half are already plans for more electric cars on the roads in 2013.

And that is good news, says Michael Rask, Special Consultant in Energy Agency.

"For the private consumer's purchase price is crucial when buying a new car, electric cars are still more expensive than conventional cars. But electric cars are cheaper to run than regular cars, and owners of large fleets, for example, municipalities, recognizes greater the advantage in their calculations, "he explains.

.??..$2600 per month lease cost ?...what cars is he referring to ? ..Tesla S and Porsche ?
Oil, filters, pads etc are NOT a significant running cost, and repeat, low cost, fixed price servicing is becoming the norm.
The major component of any vehicle servicing is LABOUR costs, and that can only be increasing as cars become more complex and specialised .
Even fuel is not a major component for an average car commuter. Depreciation, insurance, parking, tolls etc are all much bigger cost factors in my experience.
So, again, until I see some real comparative figures for say a Leaf vs a Pulsar ( electric vs ICE versions of the same car),
....I won't be swallowing the running cost argument.

It's not Dollars it's Kroner, Goggle Translate fault, it's in Kroner later in the article. I think that whatever I throw at you, you won't believe it, the moon landing is also a hoax right? so I just stop here.
 
No, no.... Please I am not anti EV at all. Quite the opposite , but very frustrated at the lack of availability and the extortionate price gap over equivalent ICE versions in Australia.
And , as I said, I have learned to be very sceptical over media info and manufacturers projections for things like maintenance and running costs. So if there is any hard info I really would be interested.
 
Bryan said:
Punx0r - you are absolutely right, American chauvinism doesn't sell well overseas - please understand that's my pride in seeing the US automotive industry rebound, but it certainly isn't a Tesla sales pitch, just my humble opinion.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and nothing to apologise for. We should all have pride in the positive achievements of our close and wider communities. It's just that those personal feelings can be very tricky to make work as an international sales pitch, with the U.S. unfortunately being at a particular disadvantage as a natural effect of being currently the largest player in the world. The Japanese earnt their automotive reputation based on reliability (but also being uncreative), the Germans on solid, practical engineering (but cold and impersonal), the Italians on flair, passion and beauty (but unreliable and impractical).

Anyway, I think we are on the same page

It's funny you mention the Rangerover and the Mini Cooper. The former is derided as the "Chelsea Tractor" due to wealthy celebrities and sportsmen only using them to potter about fashionable parts of London and the Cooper for being a ridiculous caricature of its namesake. When the original was released someone fitted a full scale cardboard model of the original mini inside the cooper's cabin to prove a point. They've only gotten larger and more expensive since then. The Rangerover at least has always remained a very capable offroad car, but the manufacturers have made it increasingly chintzy to appeal to their current target market, who are judged to have a lot more money than taste.

Meandering back to the point, I suppose therein lies the tightrope that Tesla, like all car manufacturers must tread, to appeal to as wider market as possible, but without seemingly to have sold out on its core values.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your new model S, I'm more than a little envious :D
 
Maybe I did summon a little Jeremy Clarkson there ... I won't drag the forum down by repeating one of his Keira Knightley quotes :roll:

I've heard that about the Land Rover line, but I hear the new one is a pretty legit off road beast. The newer Mini's are getting huge (especially in comparison to their namesake) we've started calling them Maxi's.

375v and 1400 amps...wow....It's a shame Tesla doesn't sell part of that battery pack to use as a building block for other applications, who knows maybe with Gigafactory they will start. Doctor - are you going to try use that for a bike?

b
 
When you start needing 400hp just to carry around your personal deficiencies, you need help, not appeasement. If most Americans are sick, that doesn't mean it isn't sickness. You guys seem to think this stuff is victimless.
 
Doctorbass said:
What i find impressive is the amount of electrical current when in insane mode...

It'a about 700hp ( 522kW) and we know the batteri is 375V that's 1392 amp !!! ( battery current !!)

1400A is a bit high for the 2/0 wire in the "D" pack !! For the 96 groups of 74 cells in parallel, that's about 18 amp per 18650 cells! or 6C !

It is not the strictly current that damages the cells it is also the heat. With liquid cooling you can push the cells much hard and much longer.

Rumor is the later rev packs also have lower resistance cells. A lab in Berkelely created freeze sintered NCA a couple years ago. This increases the surface area and and Reduces IR by a factor of 3 with no effect on cycle life! I would not be surprised if Panasonic/Tesla has licensed this technique :wink:
 
flathill said:
Doctorbass said:
What i find impressive is the amount of electrical current when in insane mode...

It'a about 700hp ( 522kW) and we know the batteri is 375V that's 1392 amp !!! ( battery current !!)

1400A is a bit high for the 2/0 wire in the "D" pack !! For the 96 groups of 74 cells in parallel, that's about 18 amp per 18650 cells! or 6C !

It is not the strictly current that damages the cells it is also the heat. With liquid cooling you can push the cells much hard and much longer.

Rumor is the later rev packs also have lower resistance cells. A lab in Berkelely created freeze sintered NCA a couple years ago. This increases the surface area and and Reduces IR by a factor of 3 with no effect on cycle life! I would not be surprised if Panasonic/Tesla has licensed this technique :wink:

Mid 2014, the cars all had a cell change to something much lower impedance. It's why the P85's all dropped something like 3-4 tenths of a second in the quarter mile, and why the P85 went from 416hp 470hp (from reduced voltage sag).

The previous limitation to the Tesla's laptimes on Nurburgring were due to battery over-temp related issues. Now they have a pack capable of much higher continuous power delivery, the times should be re-tested.

There are so many ways to decrease cell impedance by growing surface area and/or making smaller particles with more conductive modifiers. The difficult part is reducing cell impedance and still keeping a stable structure that cycles well and has good safety behavior AND holds a bunch of energy still.
 
It is not just particle size or surface area....the trick is the directional freeze dry process results in an oriented micro structure with aligned porosity. The shorted path is in a straight line so low turtuosity is optimal.
 
Its not like its a whole new chem or electrolyte. This sort of cut in is low risk but Tesla has the best and one of the largest battey labs in the world with automated coin cell testing

Tesla hired the kid from Dahn's lab who built Ultra High Precision Chargers for him.

This enable extremely accuracte measurement of roundtrip charge/discharge efficiency. From this you can predict long term cycle life fairly well (this was only recently confirmed). NCA beats everything out there right now which is why Hawaii is going totally offgrid with Saft NCA cells (solar is cheaper there than burning oil but they have no way to store). They have near 20 years of satellite use data. These Tesla NCA packs are going to last 20 years. Tesla underated the accel performance so when the cells do age (higher ir) the car will still delivery the stated 0-60 time after 8 years. That is why they didnt release the 2.8second firmware even thou the car will do it new
 
Chalo said:
When you start needing 400hp just to carry around your personal deficiencies, you need help, not appeasement. If most Americans are sick, that doesn't mean it isn't sickness. You guys seem to think this stuff is victimless.



I'll take all these "victims" suffering at the hands of driving this vehicle when it means a harder push in battery tech than we have ever witnessed in our lifetime. The battery industry has been edging up with consumer electronics for decades and decades. Now it is possible to supplant almost our entire auto and petrol industry with a disruptive force. My personal deficiencies will gladly boast about how well they appease themselves by indulging in such a sinful thing as a vehicle with pep, and the next few decades will resound with my hard earned dollars being spent on electromotive ways for all my transportation needs.

Enjoy the secondary returns of riding a bike with cars that don't spew exhaust. I'm sure you will still be able to yell at people to slow down and turn down those phase amps, them whippersnappers. They will probably hear you better too without all the ICE racket :wink:
 
LFP,

Ultimately my desire is to make my electric project fly (not the Tesla) - but what I'm reading is that to achieve high performance and reliability you need the motor, controller and the battery pack to be liquid cooled. What I'm running into is that the weight for all of the components and liquid cooling doesn't pencil for an airborne application, unless you are down in the 10-15kW motor range. So maybe the question is this:

Can a total electric system - motor, controller, batteries, with cooling - plus perhaps belt reduction gear and carbon prop weigh 100 lbs or less and put out 200-250lbs of thrust peak for climb (1-3 minutes)?

Chalo,

I don't know why you hate high performance cars, I would assume that you have personal reasons, and may have experienced loss, for that I am sorry... if it makes you feel better to point out my deficiencies - which are many :D (or Jeremy Clarkson's for that matter -also many) than go for it, I can take it. For my part, I think taking a little risk and spending money on a car (or a bike, or a scooter) that will help move the EV industry forward, and employ more people in the clean tech industry is pretty cool, and if it is exhilarating and gets people pumped about electric than all the better. I don't have an electronic hug emoticon, but I've got one for you brother. :wink: Let's be friends huh? I am just here to try to learn something and maybe do my small part to improve the world we live in.

As for how sick I am, I am still undecided if my personal issues require 400 hp to compensate or 691? :D
 
Just wait until flying cars come out. Why cant they just ride a bike! Flying is so dangerous and loud. If we were all wimps afraid to take risks we would be still living in caves.

The universe is infinite with infinite resources. Energy is infinite. Humans are not that important. I care about the Earth but I would not care if an asteroid hit it tomorrow and wiped us all out. Life is infinite. You cant actually kill anything. When you live you makes waves that go on forever. Nothing matters because matter is just a temporary pattern integrity in ultrafluid that will fade away (out but never dissipate). Everything humans have done has already been done infinite times over. Have fun and stay a kid at heart!
 
flathill said:
Its not like its a whole new chem or electrolyte. This sort of cut in is low risk but Tesla has the best and one of the largest battey labs in the world with automated coin cell testing...
But that does not help you develope and manufacture process facilities to..." directional freeze dry process which results in an oriented micro structure with aligned porosity."...on a commercial scale and with consistent quality,.....because I doubt you can stop by Lowes and pick up one of those !!
Getting "lab developments". Up scaled and productionised, to a commercially acceptable standard, does not happen quickly. Testing is only one part of the process.
 
flathill said:
Tesla hired the kid from Dahn's lab who built Ultra High Precision Chargers for him.

This enable extremely accuracte measurement of roundtrip charge/discharge efficiency. From this you can predict long term cycle life fairly well (this was only recently confirmed).


Precise measurements of coulombic efficiency had been done for at least a decade in LIB development. In unstabilized electrolyte blends it offers very correlatable life cycle data predictions.

However, nobody on earth is building cells using unstabilized electrolytes and once you test with real cell electrolyte blends you gain nothing from the precision coulombic measurements, as it no longer predicts anything useful for life cycle data. The interactions between many different stabilizers in production cell electrolytes gets extremely complex.

It's another perfect example of the many presentations made over the last few years with someone claiming they have everything related to LIB decay solved, when in fact they exclusively have decay of some totally not-representative unstabilized lab test cell that has minimal if any useful relationship to cells being used in EV's.
 
Doctorbass said:
What i find impressive is the amount of electrical current when in insane mode...

It'a about 700hp ( 522kW) and we know the batteri is 375V that's 1392 amp !!! ( battery current !!)

1400A is a bit high for the 2/0 wire in the "D" pack !! For the 96 groups of 74 cells in parallel, that's about 18 amp per 18650 cells! or 6C !

2014-08-19%2018.05.12-1280.jpg


2014-08-19%2018.09.40-1280.jpg




Oh and apparently it is possible to get the cell voltage on the TESLA from the big screen i a diagnostic mode:

attachment.php

It's more like 20A. You have to account for voltage sag. NCR18650BE would sag down to 3.2V at 20A.
And only for 5 seconds at a time. So they can deal with smaller conductors....
 
okashira said:
It's more like 20A. You have to account for voltage sag. NCR18650BE would sag down to 3.2V at 20A.
And only for 5 seconds at a time. So they can deal with smaller conductors....

Great remark :wink:

Doc
 
liveforphysics said:
flathill said:
Tesla hired the kid from Dahn's lab who built Ultra High Precision Chargers for him.

This enable extremely accuracte measurement of roundtrip charge/discharge efficiency. From this you can predict long term cycle life fairly well (this was only recently confirmed).


Precise measurements of coulombic efficiency had been done for at least a decade in LIB development. In unstabilized electrolyte blends it offers very correlatable life cycle data predictions.

However, nobody on earth is building cells using unstabilized electrolytes and once you test with real cell electrolyte blends you gain nothing from the precision coulombic measurements, as it no longer predicts anything useful for life cycle data. The interactions between many different stabilizers in production cell electrolytes gets extremely complex.

It's another perfect example of the many presentations made over the last few years with someone claiming they have everything related to LIB decay solved, when in fact they exclusively have decay of some totally not-representative unstabilized lab test cell that has minimal if any useful relationship to cells being used in EV's.

In addition to CE (coulombic efficiency) the ultra high precision chargers are measuring charge endpoint capacity slippage and charge transfer resistance. This is what allow rapid evaluation of combinations of additives.

Charge and discharge capacity does not match due to parasitic reactions. The more the curves slip the more parasitic reactions have occurred.

The Dahn/Smith charger has a CE measuremnt error of 0.01% which is almost an order of magnitude better than commerical units.
 
Doctorbass said:
okashira said:
It's more like 20A. You have to account for voltage sag. NCR18650BE would sag down to 3.2V at 20A.
And only for 5 seconds at a time. So they can deal with smaller conductors....

Great remark :wink:

Doc
Poking around... It looks like the P85D is rather over-rated. They probably rate for peak front + peak rear motor power. But the trick is not at the same time.

Proof:
1.) search for the dyno data on the web, its much lower then expected.

2.) a 2013 P85 (416hp rated) traps at 111.5mph (http://www.dragtimes.com/Tesla-Model-S-Timeslip-25833.html?r=1)
a p85D traps at 115mph. (see motortrend)

It's well known that trap speed is very indicative of power/weight and power. The numbers look more like 480-500hp, not 691, sadly.
That "only" comes out to ~14-16 amps per cell, which a NCR18650BE would handle just fine in 5-7 second bursts.
A BE would sag to 3.4-3.5 V at 15A in a quick burst at 90% SOC. (source review of probably a rewrapped black market chinese NCR18650BE: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Keeppower%20IMR18650%203200mAh%20(Black)%202014%20UK.html)
Do the math and that comes to 500 battery horsepower.
 
It would be interesting to see what a model S could do with a pack made up of good "power" 18650 cells instead...
 
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