The "Brave Combo" Lithium Pack

fechter said:
You cannot charge ni-cd's in parallel.

My plan was to have:

10 "D" NiCads or NiMh per tube (12 Volts) (12 tubes in total)

Link 3 or 4 tubes together in parallel to increase amps.

Finally combine the sets of 3 or 4 into series again to get 36V or 48V.

To charge I would have a separate charger for each "set" (so either 3 or 4) and that means that there is some level of series and parallel going on at the same time.

I wrote to the guys at:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/unsmch.html

...about the configuration and they said it sounded "correct" (and even very conservative) for these chargers.

:arrow: Do you know something the battery "specialists" don't know?

P.S: By my calculations the "peak burst" will be about 5C and so if the NiCads are rated at a "best case" of 10C or higher then it should be conservative enough to handle it. For the NiMh the "peak burst" is around 3C.


Is anyone going to get back to the "balancer" question?
 
Fetcher is correct ni-mh and ni-cd are a no go for parallel charging. The reason is that when a battery is fully charged its voltage drops, its just what they do. So this fully charged battery will end up taking all the current, overcharging and bringing about the end of the world :). The other cells will remain undercharged.
Now for the battery balancer i recommed that you buy one. I offered a method of making one, but like i said unless you are comfortable with electronics beyond the plug this box into that box level i dont recommend making it. I could help you do it if you really wanted to.
Actually fetcher do you have a better idea than what i came up with. Seems like the simplest way i can think of doing it but if you end up with 60 cells of nicd it can be very big and very complicated.
Joe
 
Leeps said:
The reason is that when a battery is fully charged its voltage drops, its just what they do. So this fully charged battery will end up taking all the current, overcharging and bringing about the end of the world :). The other cells will remain undercharged.

:arrow: Apparently you didn't really understand the pack I'm planning.

The tubes are in "series".

10 series batteries in a row constitute a "set". (tube)

It's these "sets" that would be parallel and not any individual battery within it. Since the charger is designed for "sets" of 10 batteries they will charge the whole group "as if" it were just of a higher amperage. So a "set" of 3 would mean three groups of 10 in "series" that are then connected in parallel. (on the ends) The worries of parallel are for individual batteries, but I'll never have less than 10 batteries in series. (so the law of averages should even things out) Plus, since the pack is just tubes of batteries I can periodically remove them and run tests to see if any one battery is failing and then replace it or reshuffle to get a better balance.

The battery "pro's" claim this is a "conservative" thing to do... do you have some reason why it won't work or are you just operating on some generic saying about parallel charging of NiCads?

It seems to me the worst case is when the voltage drop occurs too soon and that means you don't get a full charge. If that happens I'd just reshuffle until the average for each set was more even and that should bring it right back up.

:arrow: Also, over time the "sets" that peak first will tend to wear out sooner and that will "slow them down" and let the other less worked cells catch up. Over time the balance "should" get better rather than worse. Don't cells that get worked harder wear just a little faster? So I would figure that they would "self balance" over time... Or do the batteries that get overworked do the OPPOSITE and end up holding a higher charge over time? Or does the fact they "can't" hold the higher charge mean that they "signal" earlier and earlier and so the 10 battery "set" that is weakest triggers the end of charge earlier and earlier? (bingo, right?)

One solution is just to have a charger for each tube... or maybe that balancer might allow me to buy fewer chargers? When you look at the price it's almost as cheap to buy a charger for each tube as it is to buy a balancer for each "set".


15V-Adaptor.jpg


These run $11.99 per 24V charger and 6 would cost me $71.94, I can live with that... :) (it's going to force me into a 48 Volt situation because two tubes will need to be connected in series and that rules out the 36V configuration at least while charging)

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=427
 
Apparently you didn't really understand the pack I'm planning.

Yes we do. Before choosing lithium, I for one, planned a pack just like it too.

It's these "sets" that would be parallel and not any individual battery within it.

Read Leeps' explanation again. The simplest solution to isolate the series strings from the other series strings in parallel is diodes. Another solution is to do what battery pack merchants like batteryspace do: use separate charging wires for each series string, and then disconnect those series strings from each other before charging (a real pain I imagine)...see BS's 12V 52AH pack here:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2617

" • Please use four 12V smart NiMH battery pack chargers for recharging  each 12V 10Ah moduleby one charger
• Must charge four 12V 13Ah battery modules separately to keep better power balance."

why do you suppose they choose to do it this way, if not for the reason people here explained?
 
I understood the pack that your planning.
Admittedly i was being overdramatic with what i said would happen.
An honest answer to your question really requires a serious look at how ni-cds charge.
I built a 10 cell nicd charger that works on a negative delta trip, meaning that it trips when the voltage drops. There is a constant current output and the voltage on the battery is simply the voltage required to push that amount of current through the battery. Im under the impression that higher quality batterys end up needing less voltage than crappier batterys, thats just something i observed. The most interesting that i did notice is that the same battery pack never trips at the same voltage twice, i never looked into this effect it probably has something to do with temperature but i never did any more testing i just accepted it. The extent of this effect is between 14.5 volts to 15.9 volts on a 12 volt cordless drill battery that i use for most of my electronics projects. Thats a wide swing, and also be aware that the voltage doesnt have anything to do with how charged the battery is like you could assume with a lead acid, the only way to measure how charged any cell is is by counting the columbs of electricity that went in and came out, which is beyond the scope of most battery chargers.
Now you pick out a charger for your parallel string, im going to assume that the charger is sized to charge the string as quickly as possible. In essence meaning that its sized larger than one parallel string would safely take. While charging your going to have one parallel string that has a lower voltage it will be taking all (okay the majority of the current). This is going to charge that parallel string with much more current than it would like to take. Then when your done charging dont think the fully charged cells are going to charge the still partially charged cells, it takes more voltage than the resting voltage of the cell to charge it. Now when you go to discharge the poor partially charged cells will get overdischarged.

Its just one of the things with ni-cds they dont have a specific end of charge voltage, your just checking for a drop in impedance which to me seemed to be rather non specific and random.

Joe
 
safe said:
These run $11.99 per 24V charger and 6 would cost me $71.94, I can live with that... :) (it's going to force me into a 48 Volt situation because two tubes will need to be connected in series and that rules out the 36V configuration at least while charging)

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=427


You could consider these:
36 Volt XLR Charger
Electrical Parts - 101155
Shipping Weight: 1.5 lbs.

Price: $16.00

Stock Status: Item In Stock

101155.gif


http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101155




:)
 
That charger is for SLA I think...

Anyway, I have no problem charging it in "series" using the 24V charger, it just means that maybe I might skip the 36V optional configuration (12 tubes can either be 3X4 or 4X3) and just stick to 48 Volts for both bikes. That's fine... or I could figure out some way to swap wires around. Actually a 24V configuration makes it easy because the tubes would run one way positive to negative and then a wire connecting them and then it comes right back the opposite direction. No need to run a wire the length of the tube. (something I wasn't crazy about anyway) So it's an improvement of sorts. :wink:

I'll take the advice not to charge in parallel "in any form whatsoever" since I'd rather be "safe" than "sorry". (that's why I chose my name as "safe" and not something else)

There's no complaint about using a 24V charger that is designed specifically for charging 24 volts worth of NiMh or NiCads is there? If you can't even use a charger in the most strict definition of how you are supposed to use it then I'm really in trouble. :!:

:arrow: So (6) 24 Volt chargers covers 6 X 10 (12V) X 2(making 24V) = 120 Batteries and will cost me $71.94. (for the chargers) Sounds good... :)


Another way would be to use three 48 volt chargers. I'm going to have to search around and see if that can be done at a better price. (it would be nice to only have three plugs to deal with too... much easier)
 
I'd rather be "safe" than "sorry". (that's why I chose my name as "safe" and not something else)

Which is also why I race around my neighborhood at high speeds balled-up in the fetal position barely able to see....

Sorry, but your quote cried-out for that .... :)
 
I'm also all about irony
I was thinking of a different word, with another syllable, also ending with:
"y"

:)
 
I had that in a sandwich just now... with lettuce... it was good. :wink:
 
safe said:
Is anyone going to get back to the "balancer" question?

Yes. I am. :)

The idea of balancing is to try to keep all of the batteries at the same level of charge. This could be considered the goal of any charging system - except that nearly all multi-cell battery chargers don't actually try to directly achieve this goal. Nearly all multi-cell chargers out there charge the battery pack until an "end goal" is met that indicates the battery is fully charged. They don't spend any effort trying to make sure that each cell is charged, they just watch the pack overall to detemine if the cells are charged or not. So if the pack appears to be charged by the charger, then it is assumed that all of the cells are charged... even if not all of them are. The goal of a balancer is to make sure that each cell is charged to a similar level as all the other cells in the pack.

Balancers are useful with all battery types, but they are particularly important in lithium-based battery systems that don't have battery management systems (BMSs) because out of balance cells can lead to safety concerns.

The way that lithium ions batteries charge is pretty straightforward - particularly compared to nickel-based batteries - you apply a constant current, until a voltage threshold is met, usually 4.2V per cell, at which point the charger switches to a constant voltage mode where the current is modulated downwards to hold the voltage at 4.2V. Imagine a scenario where you get a pack of 20 3.7V lithium-ion cells and you hook them all end-to-end (20 cells in series) to create a 74V pack. In a 74V lithium ion charger you would apply a constant current to the pack - usually 1C - until the pack reaches 84V at which point, the charger would modulate the current to hold the voltage at 84V until the current drops to a small value and the charger deems the battery to be charged.

But imagine that in these 20 cells, a couple self-discharge a bit faster than the others. So the charger charges until 84V, but for a couple of cells that are not as charged as the rest because they lost more due to self-discharge, they are a bit under charged at 84V, and the rest are a bit overcharged at 84V. The pack reaches 84V, but some of the cells are at 4.1V and some others are at 4.3V. Over time, these cells become more and more "out of balance". The BMS will disable overcharging at 4.35V, but still you can have much of the pack at 4.35V - overcharged - and a handful of other cells at 3.75V and the charger thinks this pack is fully charged (15 * 4.35V + 5 * 3.75 = 84V).

So, the BMS stops the pack from overcharging a cell, but then when you discharge the pack, the BMS will disable the pack when it is overdischarged (typically any cell drops below 2.3V). So you have some cells that are only getting charged to 50% capacity at 3.75V and then the whole pack shuts down if any cell reaches 3.0V. So, now your effective pack capacity is 50% of it's rated capacity. But this effect isn't permanent(*). All you need to do is "balance" them and you'll be back close to 100% capacity again.

A balancer essentially looks at each cell individually and compares it against all of the other cells and then adjusts the voltage of them to equalize to the same voltage value (and hopefully to the same state-of-charge). The way that they work is they compare the voltages of the cells and then for all of the cells that are higher than the lowest cell, they shunt in a variable resistance in parallel with the cell to drain it faster. This can be done while charging or discharging. More advanced techniques use charge shuttling to charge - or discharge - cells by connecting cells together.

Any easy way to balance a pack is to switch to parallel charging them as individual 3.7V cells periodically. So you take your hypothetical 20 series pack and charge it all in parallel as one 20-cell parallel pack. This takes a long time though. Another alternative is to do what Xyster does and always charge them as individual cells.

There's a paper on the subject here (found with Google "lithium ion balancer"):
http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/tech/resources/SAE_2001-01-0959.pdf

Patrick Mahoney
Fort Collins, CO

(*) Well, except that 2.3V is horribly low in my opinion. Way too low to not cause permanent damage, based on my experience. One of the first things that I'd do if I bought one would to be reprogram it for a higher "low voltage cut-off".
 
I had that in a sandwich just now... with lettuce... it was good.

Does baloney contain an additional syllable compared to irony?

Not in my vocabulary.

"Hypocrisy" was the word I was thinking, but I think you knew that already :)

Now onto something more practical than banter, reading Good Sir Patrick's post on balancers...
 
i was thinking crazy but hey baloney works too
I suppose my idea would fall under charge shuttling as far as patricks explanation of balancing goes. I cant find an easy way to use the resistance method of balancing though. I imagine it would call for a microcontroller multiplexed to each cell in order to an A/D read trying to find the highest voltage and then switch on a transistor connected to the resistor trying to drain it until it falls in line with the rest of the pack.
I think my idea is easier to implement being that it self regulates where the charge goes, if a cell is higher than the rest than it will charge the capacitor to that voltage and it will be dispersed amongest the rest of the cells on the next cycle.
Im still interested in what fetcher has to say on balancing methods.
Joe
 
I've been giving the balancing/BMS problem a considerable amount of thought. Current solutions seem too expensive.

During charging, separate chargers will balance properly.
During discharge, you need to monitor all the cells to make sure none of them get below a safe voltage. Most lithium BMS systems, like in laptop computer batteries, simply monitor the voltage of each cell, presumably with some kind of multiplexer or by separate amplifiers, and kill the output of the whole pack if one gets below the limit. Likewise for charging. So if one cell gets weak, the capacity of the other cells cannot be used.

If you had a balancer, one that can shuttle a fair amount of current, and keep all the cells equal, then you might be able to measure only the full pack voltage to protect the pack.

A balancer could work during charge and discharge. A weak cell would be supported by its neighbors during discharge and allow the full energy of the pack to be expended without violating the safe voltage limits.

A good balancer would allow a single charger to work like separate chargers. A single voltage monitor would protect all the cells.

A balancer could be make using a switched capacitor or an inductor. Switched capacitor voltage converters can run around 98% efficient, but are a bit more complex. A switched inductor circuit needs half the FETs, but inductors are expensive.
 
Anyway, I was thinking of making my own. Someplace I have a schematic I drew for a two cell switched inductor balancer. A clone of the PowerCheq. These could be ganged for more cells.

I kind of like the switched capacitor idea better. The basic idea is simple enough. Seems like if it was mass produced, it shouldn't cost that much to make (of course that's true of too many EV parts).

A cool DIY approach is to figure out the circuit and make a layout, then get someplace to etch the circuit boards for you. Some places will do small batches for a reasonable price.
Then, from a parts list, you get exactly the stuff you need to mount on the board and make a kit. Let people build their own like a Heathkit.
Guys that like building can sell already built ones to those with no soldering skills.
 
fechter said:
A cool DIY approach is to figure out the circuit and make a layout, then get someplace to etch the circuit boards for you. Some places will do small batches for a reasonable price.
Then, from a parts list, you get exactly the stuff you need to mount on the board and make a kit. Let people build their own like a Heathkit.
Guys that like building can sell already built ones to those with no soldering skills.

I like it.

Open-Source e-bikes & accessories.


:D
 
Seems to me that in the end each individual cell needs to be isolated from all the others. Each cell needs to be charged and discharged based on the conditions that are appropriate for it's "state of health".

So in the end it's about either "wiring" all the cells to some "grand central station" that has all the logic about what needs to be done OR you do it on a cell, by cell basis and have the control logic there.

Alternatively the "best" solution is to have a fundamental battery chemistry that is so durable and capable of abuse that even a caveman could charge it...


geico01.jpg


I'll add that this discussion AMPLIFIES the importance of the "tube based" battery pack design (with silver paste) because you would always be free to rearrainge your cells if they go out of balance. With a soldered pack you pretty much are stuck if one cell goes bad. (well I suppose you could unsolder the pack, but that gets messy)
 
Alternatively the "best" solution is to have a fundamental battery chemistry that is so durable and capable of abuse that even a caveman could charge it...
Lithium-manganese and lithium iron phosphate both fit this bill because, like lithium cobalt and lead, these chemistries can be charged in parallel subpacks to balance each and every cell in the whole pack. But unlike lithium-cobalt and lead, these new lithium chemistries can be discharged completely. So as a pack discharges, it's no big deal some cells are a little closer to total discharge than others. The only minor challenge remaining is to balance the subpacks during recharge. -- for which will work either a charger/balancer combo, or multiple single-cell chargers.

So simple even a politico could do it!
Now if only we could afford it :)
 
xyster said:
Now if only we could afford it :)

Amen to that! The price needs to come down, but those prices aren't "that bad"... still hard to justify... but very close.
 
fetcher how does your switched inductor balancer work. Id be interested in a quick description i dont really need a whole schematic

Joe
 
Dang! I wish I could find that. It's in my office computer.
Anyway, the basic idea is the higher voltage cell gets switched to the inductor, which builds a field and draws current from the higher battrery. When the switch opens, the kickback is circulated to the lower voltage cell by diodes. I'm pretty sure that's how the PowerCheq works.

When the voltages are equal within the allowable tolerance, the circuit is in standby.

This design is easily scaleable to any size. I thought something that can handle 5 amps would be good.

I can post it next week when I get back to work.
 
Another li-ion BMS option: For awhile all-battery has been selling cells with internal PCB's (not fuse-like PTC's as on most 18650s). I haven't tried them, nor read any independent reviews.

Does anybody have any idea how well they'd work in a series/parallel pack for EV's?

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=461
 

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I don't know anything about these either, but I might suggest that since they have no "tabs" (and soldering would probably damage the PCB's) that these are the ideal cells to use in "tubes". No soldering, just simple silver conductive paste and spring loading should do it... :D
 
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