The cooked MAC repair thread!

Philistine said:
I thought I would be home all week but my new "lady friend"
Has invited me down to her holiday shack in Mandurah,

KiM

**Cue funky bass guitar music** Wow chicka wow wow.... Way to go Kim...a holiday house? Our Kim will be a kept man....

ROFL... indeedie it is Phil, right next to the beach too :p not that it does me much good, wont be any moonlight "strolls"
along the beach for me, best i can do is crawl like a wounded sea lion to the water... My new frame progress has been delayed as a result, bloody wiminez and their lady bits.

KiM
 
That's a crack up Phil!

4 halls ordered from RS- I had totally forgotten to check them so thanks Simon!

Kim, pm sent.
 
andynogo said:
I have also disovered that one of the hall sensing lines has a direct short to a phase wire... I'm guessing that's not so good.

Yes, this is bad. Very bad.

This may also damage the controller.
 
KFF. In this case Kentuky Fried Frock!

Thanks to Kim (awesome to meet a fellow geek with so many similar interests), we tore the motor apart and tested it.

The blue hall wire was shorted to the phases as all the phase wires had melted their insulation and obviously melted into the surrounding hall wires as well.

All three halls are cactus and are doing nothing.

Tomorrow arvo I'll test the controller as well and see if it's still working. I'd be surprised if it is but fingers crossed.

The motor is certainly salvageable as the phases are all good. I'll be re-wiring the whole thing and putting bigger phase wires all the way through, new halls and also will have a look at cooling the hub if possible, using scoops and filters to stop dirty air getting in.

Kim also suggested that I run it at lower voltage/amps.

Hah! I'd rather burn it again than go backwards. Ok, maybe I'll go a few kmh slower. Then buy something bigger/faster etc. I have to get something to beat Kim so it'll have to be good!
 
How in the hell did you fry the mac?

You must have been going up lots of steep hills at full throttle as I only got it hot once on a long steep hill climb, all other times it was hardly warm.

I think you would be better off reducing the power to the motor, and maybe going direct drive, only thing is you have to dump a fair bit more power into dd motors to get the same power as the mac!

I don't even think the crystalyte hs motor at 72 volts will be as powerful as the mac on 60 volts, you will have to pump more current in too adding to the heat, but the crystalyte should take a lot more to get hot than the mac!

You will only end up killing the mac permanently!
 
60V and up to 56Amps according to my watts up.

50-55km/h commute to work for 15 minutes before it died. Those phase wires obviously got seriously hot- and the windings too.

Maybe the fact that the bike is heavy to start with, then I put 15kg batteries on it then I sat my lardy a$$ on it (another 105kg). No hills at all.
 
very strange, so many people talking about hot phase wires on the mac, I remember climbing a steep hill at 32 mph for about 10 mins, the motor got quiet hot but the phase wires were only warm.

Even after 10 miles or so at 35-40 mph the mac was never hot apart from the time I went up the very steep hill!

I'm 94 kgs but I doubt that makes so much of a difference and I'm carrying 6.5 kgs of 16S 10ah LiPo and I'm running around the same power as you!

If I were you I were you especially if you need it for commuting, just go for a good strong direct drive motor and feed it an 18 fet controller and maybe 72-84 volts. If you ask me upgrading the mac is a waste of time because if it started to burn internally then nothing is going to change that unless you turn the amps down to around 40 battery 70 phase, that's still fairly powerful on a geared motor like the mac!
 
56 amps at high voltage is a lot of juice. I've got my phase wires above warm at that temp. I had to upgrade them as i knew they were functioning more as a space heater than a power transmission device. 12G phase wires is how i managed to blow my gears at 4kW :)

Andy, i think you ran too many amps for too long. 40A is really pushing it to begin with on an 8T. That's why i run about 36a/57v nominal ( 15S lipo ). That's how i manage to get the same speeds as you, but have not melted anything yet. I pedal whenever possible - hills & initial startup from a stop. I have a 11t rear gear to a 50T single gear in the front, that's how i manage to pedal into the low 30mph ( 48-53kmh ) zone. I think you are butting up against the limit for these motors. Either run 2, get something bigger like a Crystalyte 5xxx / cromotor, or dial back your amps.

I am really impressed that the gears did not melt and the insulation on the wires was the first thing to go.

Also please know that upgrading the phase wires will not make the motor run cooler! you'll end up transmitting even more power to the motor that you would have lost in the wires. Upgraded phase wires could potentially keep a DD cooler if you're doing a lot of hill climbing, stop 'n go etc, only because you can keep in a higher position of the efficiency curve, but the MAC/BMC style motor does not benefit, as it's ~80% efficiency for most of the operational RPM range.
 
andynogo said:
KFF. In this case Kentuky Fried Frock!
Thanks to Kim (awesome to meet a fellow geek with so many similar interests), we tore the motor apart and tested it.

Ditto Andy ;) ...quite surprising the number of e-bikers that come with RC backgrounds..
I havne't however till now, met a fellow DIY Projector builder before! that surprised me!!
We is both rev head geeks for sure haha

andynogo said:
Kim also suggested that I run it at lower voltage/amps.
Hah! I'd rather burn it again than go backwards. Ok, maybe I'll go a few kmh slower. Then buy something bigger/faster etc. I have to get something to beat Kim so it'll have to be good!

I gotta try to keep you guys at bay, can't be havin' frocks quicker than my H.O.B.O now
can I sheesh :p

neptronix said:
I am really impressed that the gears did not melt and the insulation on the wires was the first thing to go.

True, but his phase wires are melting before they get to the motor winding Nep, Andy will likely do the same mods Matt.P has done. i.e drill the axle out to 7.5mm thread 2 phase wires in one side one phase wire and all the halls in the other side of the axle, using 10ga wire stripped and heat shrink in place of stock insulation... The gears looked good except for one the bearing had come out of it, easily fixed i'm sure...Its definitely had a hard life though the windings are black not shorted though thankfully, as Andy eluded to he's a "beefcake" lad (if he stepped on your foot in a dark alley you be the one doing the apologizing) LoL...yes, so weight and sheer size doesn't equate to very efficient 'aero' the lil motor has been struggling....

Best of luck with the controller anywayz Andy... :: fingers crossed:: shes not broke.. ;)
I would love to see someone re-wind one of these motors with thicker wire, the gears
seem to be taking the increased power, C'MoNz Andy, some 16awg magnet wire and that thing
will be screaming, might be able to stay with my cruiser....when i'm in first gear :p

KiM
 
Thanks for all the comments- good info there.

Yes, I agree that I'm probably taxing it too much. If I were to limit the amps, would it be best to get a CA and limit battery amps or should I try and reconfig the controller using Keywin's software? To do that I'd have to put all the wires in to the controller as it doesn't have them fitted at this stage. It's an EB212 with 12 4110's. I'd also need the basic parameters for this motor as I bought it pre-programmed obviously.

Is there a direct relationship between battery amps and phase amps- i.e. when limiting via CA on battery amps, does it consequently drop the phase amps as well or does the CA directly control the amps through the controller?

Yes, I probably should just buy a beefier motor but this is what I have at the moment. Ultimately I'd like to go mid drive with the power going through the gears.... hmm, maybe mount the stripped down mac- with much better cooling...it might last at a decent power level... like http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=34158

As for re-winding it- Kim, how long has it taken you so far to do a few turns? I think I have something like 38 poles to do. Unless of course you want to do it???? Huh??? :mrgreen:

For info, one of the gears had come off the bearing. Easily fixed by pressing the bearing back in to the gear with a smear of devcon. Luckily it wasn't damaged and the gears themselves certainly seem to be up to the power, although admittedly the motor has only done around 50km's all up before it toasted.
 
you are running almost 10 times the rated power of the motor. i don't see how it can be made to handle that much power during the ozzie summer.

maybe check your controller to see if the hall sensor wires still have the 5V on them. and on the red wire too. if you shorted the phase wire to the hall sensor it coulda damaged the 5 volt source in the controller.
 
The infineon controller programming method would be much better than the cycle analyst method.
The cycle analyst has kind of a slow reaction time, so it will still allow a burst of amps from the start.

60V x 56A.. 3360W. That's definitely enough to ruin the clutch and keyway if the gears don't go. You will totally have to dial down the amps to save it.

You can upgrade the wires and stator copper all ya like. But you will find your limit there. Not even the BMC V4 has internals strong enough to deal with that.
 
Perhaps also do the keyway 'mod' Matt did Andy? i.e weld the f#cker in there so theres no play... :lol:

re: "ME" rewinding the frock BWAHAHA funny guy ain't ya :p i had to disinfect my hands from
touching it last night, i have broken out in this awful rash i think i have some form
of 'frockitis' i wonder if there's shots for this?!? ...i new i should of put my gloves on :shock: :mrgreen:

KiM
 
Oh yeah i remember that thread. He did the keyway up, then made it a solid freewheel by welding the clutch together after the clutch broke under the power he was running.

I guess that works. You end up with a geared motor that can do regen. It will have a hell of a lot of drag when you pedal though. It'd basically be a high performance, low weight DD.

Now at THAT point, it would make sense to rewind the MAC motor and dump silly power into it. Maybe fill it with oil for better heat dispersion as well ( geared motors do NOT shed heat well ).

cell_man has talked about a double wide stator motor in the future, though he has not promised anything. Maybe hang on to that motor for a while, run lower amps and don't kill it till then..
 
neptronix said:
Oh yeah i remember that thread. He did the keyway up, then made it a solid freewheel by welding the clutch together after the clutch broke under the power he was running.
Not quite right. I welded the keyway in but didn't make the freewheel solid.

I really think with just a few less amps your motor will be fine. I run 2900w peak and it is awesome fun and super reliable with 52kmh max.
Cheers,
Matt.P.
 
1000w said:
neptronix said:
Oh yeah i remember that thread. He did the keyway up, then made it a solid freewheel by welding the clutch together after the clutch broke under the power he was running.
Not quite right. I welded the keyway in but didn't make the freewheel solid.

I really think with just a few less amps your motor will be fine. I run 2900w peak and it is awesome fun and super reliable with 52kmh max.
Cheers,
Matt.P.

Sounds like the go. I will try to keep this motor going and reliable, by turning the amps down.

I am, however, now planning a mid drive setup to go through the gears to get me to about 80km/h. Why not.

I'll keep this thread updated with the results of testing the controller and the fixes I do to the mac.
 
i have broken out in this awful rash

Are you going to blame the frock motor for your nasty discharge as well Kim?

Andy - if you use a CA to limit amps, it will be limiting the battery amps, which will consequently limit/reduce the phase amps as well. I have a BMC (much like a mac), and I don't run it over 40amps or I get probs.

Cheers, Phil.
 
Thanks Phil.

I have now tested the controller as as predicted by those in the know, it is cactus too. No 5V output on the hall sensing circuit. I guess that's understandable given that it was directly connected to a phase wire once they had melted together. I'll just add a new controller to the list now. :cry:
 
you can open the controller and see if there is still 5V on the rail up to the TVS on that supply for the hall sensors. usually the trace runs along the edge of the board and to the TVS then on over to where the resistors are for the hall sensor leads. see if you can follow them on the board back to the TVS and check the voltage on the regulator side of the TVS.
 
dnmun said:
you can open the controller and see if there is still 5V on the rail up to the TVS on that supply for the hall sensors. usually the trace runs along the edge of the board and to the TVS then on over to where the resistors are for the hall sensor leads. see if you can follow them on the board back to the TVS and check the voltage on the regulator side of the TVS.

Yes, I'll have a look when I get a chance. Obviously if it's popped a smd then I really can't be bothered trying to fix it- I'll keep it for spares as the FETs should/might be good still.
 
Stil have 5V on the hall circuit! I must admit I'm quite surprised. It still doesn't work so the controller is cactus.

I guess the clue was that even with the wheel off the ground, there was not even the slightest hint of anything happening when you turn the throttle.

On the tester is shows up as no 5V led (which apparently is bad) even though there is clearly 5V going to the tester on the red and black wires for the hall connections. When you twist the throttle, four of the led's light up on the wheel display. This display is supposed show the led's lighting up to simulate a wheel turning when you open the throttle but four lights come on then go out again after a couple of seconds. When you close the throttle then re-open it, the same thing happens. Almost like the hardware overcurrent fault condition is triggering.

Doesn't really matter anyway as I'm ordering a new controller from Cellman....
 
Hey Andy,

should have dropped by sooner. I've not had any complaints of the phase wires letting go like this, they are actually pretty tough considering the amount of current that can be dumped through them. At the sort of power and current levels you were running, they are a bit on the small side though. To be honest, the 12 fet running on 48V or more definitely has the potential to fry the Mac if used hard. I now set the 12 fet a bit tamer, some of those EB2 controllers went out a bit too strong really. Some care should be taken if running a 12 fet and if it's a hot day, that will not help matters.

I will have some modded axles in the not too distant future so that I can fit doubled up phase wires in there. So basically 6pcs of the standard 2mm^2 phase wire that is used as standard, 4mm^2 is equivalent to about 11AWG I believe. You can squeeze more copper through the axle with 6 smaller wires, versus 3 larger wires, I've tried. The extra copper definitely solves the hot phase wire issue IME, so you shouldn't have the same issue recurring, it will not keep the motor cooler though. I run a 6T and that can get the standard phase wires pretty hot when pushed hard, they are barely warm with the upgraded phase wires. I had a few axles made up previously and have a few 8 and 6T motors in stock with them fitted, but no spare axles. Axles have been changed over time and the keyway is now a tight fit in the axle. Upgraded phase wires made a measurable improvement of the Dyno performance and should make even more difference at slow speed, high load where phase current is higher. Unfortunately I haven't been able to test this as the dyno has insufficient torque, my butt dyno says there is a definitely improvement at take off with the upgraded phase wires.

The new EB3 controllers are definitely much nicer with the Mac than the EB2. The EB2 also tended to dump a whole lot more current than you would expect. With the EB3 it definitely keeps the peak current in better check, is much smoother and more controllable. Not the all or nothing that you tend to get with the EB2 and Mac combination. The 3 speed further improves matters when you aren't going flat out. It's a pretty simple process to program the controllers so you can always dial it up or down as required. Personally I've set my bike with a fairly high battery current level of 50A, but the phase to only twice the battery current, so 100A phase current. This keeps things swift but smooth when you pull away but pulls harder with more power as you get moving. By playing with the phase and battery current ratio you can limit the power at lower speeds where phase currents are high and the motor is not operating at best efficiency and supply more power at the higher rpms where it is operating more efficiently, less stress on the gears too. I'll try to find out what is likely damaged on your controller, at least then you can have a backup or use it on a DD motor where they seem to work just fine.

Just for info, I do have a very few of the double width stators that have been mentioned, unfortunately that is the easy bit, the rest of the motors needs to be built around these oversized stators, not easy, but doable. Also have a few special, standard sized 500W stators arriving soon. This is a higher grade stator, should improve performance. Looking forward to trying these out and see what they produce. Should be able to offer these soon in built motors and possibly even as a bare stator for a few of my best customers to try out in their existing Mac motor :)

You'll have to remove the stator to do the hall sensors I'm afraid, take care. The yoke is secured to the stator support by a large circlip located under the aluminium shaft support in the centre of the stator. You need to remove the other circlips fitted on the axle too, it's all fairly obvious once you've removed the shaft support. What I have done in the past is fit the shaft support back onto the stator support and then knocked the shaft down onto a hard surface, knocking the stator out of the yoke. Use proper working gloves when messing with a motor, they snap back together very strong and you could easily get a nasty pinch or a lot worse.... If you use this method, you should use longer bolts in the shaft support (6pcs of M4 if I remember correctly). The standard bolts securing the shaft support to the stator support are a bit short and the thread in the aluminium stator support can be stripped. Another option is to rig something that will hook under the stator so you aren't relying on the stator support.

Don't worry, I'll get you fixed up ASAP and will sort something out for you so you aren't too much out of pocket. She'll be better than ever :)

Cheers
Paul
 
Hi Paul,

Any sign of that bigger mac we talked about ages ago ? :D

Is there any chance Paul you could install a temp sensor and some kind of display so we could know when to stop? That might save a lot of motors. But I've put 3500 watts into the phase wires and not got them hot, warm but not hot!

I think a larger air cooled mac would be nice , I see people on ES drilling covers and spraying with the red paint to water proof it, that would make a major difference to the mac, but might not be too good with the gears, dirt and moisture wouldn't be good, the only other thing is water cooling!

I think the gears are sorted now and well able for the power.

What about that new design clutch, the one where you don't need to install the clip ? But defiantly the key way wasn't the best fit on my mac.

What's the story about the double stator Paul ? That obviously won't fit into the standard mac ? That would give more torque ? or speed?

And the upgraded stator in standard with?

Need more Information! :mrgreen:
 
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