The E-cumbent - A project by Matt Shumaker
- Thread starter Storm
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recumpence
1 GW
I am not sure if I covered this or not. But, I wanted to share something cool about this controller;
It is a constant RPM controller. I have found that I never lose more than 1 or 2 mph (3 is the most I have seen) when I go from flats to up hills. Basically, if I keep the throttle constant (easy with my thumb wheel throttle) and then continue up a hill, the controller kicks in alot more power to mantain constant speed. As I mentioned earlier, the bike only slows down a very small amount (1 or 2 mph) up hills. The most extreme case of this is a 1/10 mile long steep up hill (very tough to pedal up). I was cruising at 26 mph on the flat before the hill. The bike only slowed to 23 mph as teh controller kicks in much more power.
I am liking this thing!
Matt
It is a constant RPM controller. I have found that I never lose more than 1 or 2 mph (3 is the most I have seen) when I go from flats to up hills. Basically, if I keep the throttle constant (easy with my thumb wheel throttle) and then continue up a hill, the controller kicks in alot more power to mantain constant speed. As I mentioned earlier, the bike only slows down a very small amount (1 or 2 mph) up hills. The most extreme case of this is a 1/10 mile long steep up hill (very tough to pedal up). I was cruising at 26 mph on the flat before the hill. The bike only slowed to 23 mph as teh controller kicks in much more power.
I am liking this thing!
Matt
recumpence
1 GW
So, I just heard from the 4th bicycle/e-bike manufacturer about my bike. Boy, my ego sure is getting stroked!
They had 3 specific questions for me regarding power transmission and drive systems. I am busy for the next month doing a big job shop project. But, after that, we are supposed to be getting together to work on their power system (for an electric trike they are designing).
There sure does seem to be a pent-up desire for new, different e-bike drives.
Matt
They had 3 specific questions for me regarding power transmission and drive systems. I am busy for the next month doing a big job shop project. But, after that, we are supposed to be getting together to work on their power system (for an electric trike they are designing).
There sure does seem to be a pent-up desire for new, different e-bike drives.
Matt
TylerDurden
100 GW
Beware of anyone associate with the geezer trike called "Raptor".recumpence said:
recumpence
1 GW
No kidding.
This is a new company I haven't heard of before.
Matt
This is a new company I haven't heard of before.
Matt
GGoodrum
1 MW
Geez, I can't believe I've missed this thread, especially since I've known Matt for several years. :? The helicopter he mentions a couple of times is an absolute work of art, with a number of extremely innovative features. The metal work is beautiful, very polished, with a high "bling" factor. 
I'm not surprised the Maxamp 10Ah packs are so light. These are mid-range, form a performance point-of-view, but pretty affordable, when compared to the 30C+ higher-end stuff. One caution I would have is that might want to consider adding an LVC capability, as it is quite easy to run these down to where they dump, and that will kill these LiPo cells just as easy as the LiFePO4-type cells most are using around here for Lithium-based solutions.
My actual first foray into the ebike realm was trying to adapt an RC-based setup as well, although it was caveman crude, by Matt's lofty standards. This first one used a Hacker A60-18L outrunner, and a modified geared reduction, based on using glass-impregnated nylon gears, from one of the larger helicopters we play with:
The Controller is an uber-expensive ($400) Kontronix Power Jazz 63V model, which is good for 120A continuous, and 200A peaks. It too is USB-programmable, like the CC PHX HV 110, although it doesn't have quite as many options.
What I did was mount this on the down tube on my Townie, and then had the secondary shaft sprocket drive the large chainring. Although it worked, it just had too much power for the geared setup. I switched to a belt drive, but shreaded the belts in quick order. Way too much power.
I then switched to a different setup, using a big inrunner motor, from Steve Neu (http://www.neumotors.com), which had a hefty (by RC standards...) 6.75:1 planetary gearbox:
This solved the gear stripping/belt shredding problem, but this beast is $500, without the gearbox, which is another $200, I think.
In the end, it was not having a freewheel up front that got me off of this path, and into the big Clytes.
I've always had it in the back of my mind, though, that making use of the existing bike gearing, to get the torque advantage, is still a better way to go, mainly because you can get away with a smaller/lighter motor. This is why I bought the Cyclone 1000W kit, although I haven't had any time to do anything with it just yet. In any case, after I get the first one of these done, and find where the inevitable pitfalls/weaknesses are, I would eventually like to revisit trying an RC-based solution.
In any case, great work, Matt. As usual, the quality of the work is amazing. I can't wait to hear more about your fine-tuning and tweaking. I know you will keep changing things here and there, making small improvements. Such is your nature. 
-- Gary
I'm not surprised the Maxamp 10Ah packs are so light. These are mid-range, form a performance point-of-view, but pretty affordable, when compared to the 30C+ higher-end stuff. One caution I would have is that might want to consider adding an LVC capability, as it is quite easy to run these down to where they dump, and that will kill these LiPo cells just as easy as the LiFePO4-type cells most are using around here for Lithium-based solutions.
My actual first foray into the ebike realm was trying to adapt an RC-based setup as well, although it was caveman crude, by Matt's lofty standards.
This first one used a Hacker A60-18L outrunner, and a modified geared reduction, based on using glass-impregnated nylon gears, from one of the larger helicopters we play with:
The Controller is an uber-expensive ($400) Kontronix Power Jazz 63V model, which is good for 120A continuous, and 200A peaks. It too is USB-programmable, like the CC PHX HV 110, although it doesn't have quite as many options.
What I did was mount this on the down tube on my Townie, and then had the secondary shaft sprocket drive the large chainring. Although it worked, it just had too much power for the geared setup. I switched to a belt drive, but shreaded the belts in quick order. Way too much power.
I then switched to a different setup, using a big inrunner motor, from Steve Neu (http://www.neumotors.com), which had a hefty (by RC standards...) 6.75:1 planetary gearbox:
This solved the gear stripping/belt shredding problem, but this beast is $500, without the gearbox, which is another $200, I think.
In the end, it was not having a freewheel up front that got me off of this path, and into the big Clytes.
I've always had it in the back of my mind, though, that making use of the existing bike gearing, to get the torque advantage, is still a better way to go, mainly because you can get away with a smaller/lighter motor. This is why I bought the Cyclone 1000W kit, although I haven't had any time to do anything with it just yet. In any case, after I get the first one of these done, and find where the inevitable pitfalls/weaknesses are, I would eventually like to revisit trying an RC-based solution. In any case, great work, Matt. As usual, the quality of the work is amazing.
I can't wait to hear more about your fine-tuning and tweaking. I know you will keep changing things here and there, making small improvements. Such is your nature. -- Gary
recumpence
1 GW
Thanks Safe.
Gary,
I like the big Neu motor. Do you still have it? Feel like parting with it?
I am working continuously on my bike. I love it, for sure. The only bug to cure is the darn AXI back EMF annoyance. Eventually I will get a different motor or ESC to try out.
Matt
Gary,
I like the big Neu motor. Do you still have it? Feel like parting with it?
I am working continuously on my bike. I love it, for sure. The only bug to cure is the darn AXI back EMF annoyance. Eventually I will get a different motor or ESC to try out.
Matt
safe
1 GW
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http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Gear_Drives.html
The P32 gear drives can handle props up to 20 inches and 3000 watts.
The P42 drive is best suited for systems over 3000 watts and turning props up to 30 inches in diameter and 5000 watts.
The P62 is suitable for well over 10,000 watts.
Why not use these?
The P32 gear drives can handle props up to 20 inches and 3000 watts.
The P42 drive is best suited for systems over 3000 watts and turning props up to 30 inches in diameter and 5000 watts.
The P62 is suitable for well over 10,000 watts.
Why not use these?
Link
1 MW
Damn, those last two reductions cost more than I paid for my motor. 
GGoodrum
1 MW
The P62 is what is on the 2215-3Y pictured above. It is a beast, compared to what I'm used to seeing with these type of gearboxes, and uses high-quality needle bearings internally. I believe these come from Germany, or Switzerland, I can't remember. In any case, the combo should be able to supply plenty of power. Steve is famous for building extremely efficient motors. He uses only the highest quality steel in the stators, and the best magnets available. The stators are hand-wound.
The kV of this motor is 480 rpm/volt, so with the 6.75:1 reduction, it would be pretty much a drop-in replacement for the Cyclone 1000W motor. At 52V this spins at about 21000 rpm, which is coasting for this motor, which can go as high as 60,000 rpm. I know Steve has tested them even higher. So "overvolting" them is not an issue, but geting an RC-type controller to go beyond about 60V could be a problem. Castle Creations was working on a 100V/200A model, and Steve was testing the prototype, but I don't see it listed on CC's site, so I'm not sure whatever happened to it. The Power Jazz controller I have is rated to 63V, and the "HV" versions of the Phoenix controllers will work fine with a typical 16s LiFePO4 48V setup.
There is now a 2230 version of this motor available, which has a stator that is twice the length of the 2215. Steve uses a simple naming convention fo his motors, the first two digits are the stator diameter and the second two are the stator length, so the 2215 has a stator diameter of 2.2" and a length of 1.5". The 2230 is easily capable of supplying 10kW continuously, so I'm thinking this could be something to try instead of an eTek, or a MARS, in a motorcycle-type conversion. The P62 can also handle 10kW as well.
Anyway, fun stuff. I'm definitely going to give the 2215/P62 setup a "spin", hopefully in the not so distant future.
-- Gary
The kV of this motor is 480 rpm/volt, so with the 6.75:1 reduction, it would be pretty much a drop-in replacement for the Cyclone 1000W motor. At 52V this spins at about 21000 rpm, which is coasting for this motor, which can go as high as 60,000 rpm. I know Steve has tested them even higher. So "overvolting" them is not an issue, but geting an RC-type controller to go beyond about 60V could be a problem. Castle Creations was working on a 100V/200A model, and Steve was testing the prototype, but I don't see it listed on CC's site, so I'm not sure whatever happened to it. The Power Jazz controller I have is rated to 63V, and the "HV" versions of the Phoenix controllers will work fine with a typical 16s LiFePO4 48V setup.
There is now a 2230 version of this motor available, which has a stator that is twice the length of the 2215. Steve uses a simple naming convention fo his motors, the first two digits are the stator diameter and the second two are the stator length, so the 2215 has a stator diameter of 2.2" and a length of 1.5". The 2230 is easily capable of supplying 10kW continuously, so I'm thinking this could be something to try instead of an eTek, or a MARS, in a motorcycle-type conversion. The P62 can also handle 10kW as well.
Anyway, fun stuff.
I'm definitely going to give the 2215/P62 setup a "spin", hopefully in the not so distant future.-- Gary
Ypedal
100 TW
Hey Gary.. have you ever tried those RC controllers on your X5's ?
GGoodrum
1 MW
Ypedal said:
No,I haven't, but most of mine are setup for 72V right now, and that's a problem for the RC controllers. I'm not sure how wel the algorithems used in the sensorless RC controllers would work with a heavy x5. They normally make the motor "chirp" when powering up, which is caused by small motor movements backa and forth. Once on, though, they have no problem figuring out where the motor is in its rotation. Like Matt, I've never seen one have a problem accelerating from a stop, once the controller is first turned on.
-- Gary
safe
1 GW
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That's well more than needed for an ebike. :wink:GGoodrum said:
And your mention of Germany and Switzerland is no surprise... that's why I was saying it would be a "Swiss Watch" transmission.
That part of the world takes pride in that sort of thing.
recumpence
1 GW
Just took the plunge and ordered the Terminator.
http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg_terminator.htm
Expensive bugger!
It will be here in a week.
I will post pics and comparison with my AXI when it arrives.
Matt
http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg_terminator.htm
Expensive bugger!
It will be here in a week.
I will post pics and comparison with my AXI when it arrives.
Matt
recumpence
1 GW
You and me both.
I e-Bayed ALOT of stuff for this.
Matt
I e-Bayed ALOT of stuff for this.
Matt
Ypedal
100 TW
ye ha.. no more screwin around huh !! 
How many watts do you plan to run thru it?
How many watts do you plan to run thru it?
recumpence
1 GW
Hmm, not sure about that.
Depending on how I gear it, I know 5000 watts is possible with the driveline I have. I have pulled nearly that with my AXI for a couple seconds under hard accelleration.
I know my controller and battery (and this motor) are all capable of 6,000 watts+. But, I am not 100% sure about the drive line, specifically my rear wheel hub/sprocket screws. I may have to install my new rear wheel (36 spoke, large hub flange with disc brake mount) to handle all the wattage.
I really want to gear this thing taller. Ideally 45 to 50mph maximum speed would be fun to toy with.
Even geared at 50 mph, I doubt it would draw more than 1,500 watts to cruise, probably far less than that. But, accelleration is a different story!
Matt
Depending on how I gear it, I know 5000 watts is possible with the driveline I have. I have pulled nearly that with my AXI for a couple seconds under hard accelleration.
I know my controller and battery (and this motor) are all capable of 6,000 watts+. But, I am not 100% sure about the drive line, specifically my rear wheel hub/sprocket screws. I may have to install my new rear wheel (36 spoke, large hub flange with disc brake mount) to handle all the wattage.
I really want to gear this thing taller. Ideally 45 to 50mph maximum speed would be fun to toy with.
Even geared at 50 mph, I doubt it would draw more than 1,500 watts to cruise, probably far less than that. But, accelleration is a different story!
Matt
safe
1 GW
- Joined
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- 5,681
I'm routinely pulling speeds above 45 mph in many places now on my existing bike. To keep myself "safe" I wear full leathers and a helmet and gloves. (sometimes racing boots too) If you start to do this sort of thing you better take some safety precautions because a spill at those speeds is going to do more than just hurt, it could be fatal.
If nothing else try to imagine the skin you will lose if you simply slide off the bike at 45-55 mph... you are going to go all the way to the bone and that means expensive and painful skin grafts. So get some protective clothing, ideally leathers, so that you don't hurt yourself. A full faced helmet gives much better protection than a bicycle helmet, so you might want that too.
For high speeds you need to start to think of yourself as more of a motorcycle rider than a bicycle rider... maybe someday there will be custom designed leathers that are specifically tailored for the needs of high speed electric bikes, but for now your best choice is to use motorcycle road racing leathers.
If nothing else try to imagine the skin you will lose if you simply slide off the bike at 45-55 mph... you are going to go all the way to the bone and that means expensive and painful skin grafts. So get some protective clothing, ideally leathers, so that you don't hurt yourself. A full faced helmet gives much better protection than a bicycle helmet, so you might want that too.
For high speeds you need to start to think of yourself as more of a motorcycle rider than a bicycle rider... maybe someday there will be custom designed leathers that are specifically tailored for the needs of high speed electric bikes, but for now your best choice is to use motorcycle road racing leathers.
recumpence
1 GW
Maybe the bst option would be light weight dirtbike pants and shirt?
Anyway, I have gone down on pavement with motorcycles a number of times. Yup, painful!
Without getting too far off topic, there are three things that cause injuries in a crash;
#1 Direct impact. Hitting something head-on. This is obviously speed sensitive (how much damage is done).
#2 Road rash. Again, a speed sensitive thing (more speed more rash).
#3 The fall (particularly of your head) from its normal riding hight to the pavement.
Number three is the one that is interesting from a recumbent perspective. My body and my head are less than half the hight of a typical mountain bike rider. So, if I go down, I have far less impact with the ground. When you half the fall, you reduce the impact by a factor of 4 (if I have my math correct). So, going down on a recumbent is normally not a big deal.
That being said, road rash is the issue I am worried about. However, odds are, I would very rarely run it faster than 35 mph. There just aren't many places to do that around here.
But, then again, if you got it, use it!
Matt
Anyway, I have gone down on pavement with motorcycles a number of times. Yup, painful!
Without getting too far off topic, there are three things that cause injuries in a crash;
#1 Direct impact. Hitting something head-on. This is obviously speed sensitive (how much damage is done).
#2 Road rash. Again, a speed sensitive thing (more speed more rash).
#3 The fall (particularly of your head) from its normal riding hight to the pavement.
Number three is the one that is interesting from a recumbent perspective. My body and my head are less than half the hight of a typical mountain bike rider. So, if I go down, I have far less impact with the ground. When you half the fall, you reduce the impact by a factor of 4 (if I have my math correct). So, going down on a recumbent is normally not a big deal.
That being said, road rash is the issue I am worried about. However, odds are, I would very rarely run it faster than 35 mph. There just aren't many places to do that around here.
But, then again, if you got it, use it!
Matt
paultrafalgar
10 kW
I have informed the police to run you in if seen going over 40mph, unless dressed like this:
:lol:
You're too valuable to this forum to risk it, Matt!
:lol: You're too valuable to this forum to risk it, Matt!
recumpence
1 GW
I already look like that!
Matt
Matt
safe
1 GW
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- 5,681
I didn't get my leathers until this year and have ridden 100% of the time with them ever since. Last year I used a bicycle helmet and elbow and knee pads most of the time. At least with elbow and knee pads you eliminate the places where you tend to dig deepest into your skin in a crash. The outside of the leg (the long smooth fleshy part) tends to be the part that will strike the ground and for me on a motorcycle crash 15-20 years ago I remember how it tended to grab the skin and pull it. You end up with a nasty bruise underneath the road rash and the nerves tend to rip underneath. It's the nerves the didn't heal for 5-10 years so that I had feeling in the area again.
The nice thing about tight fitting road racing leathers is that when you hit the ground the skin is held next to the body so it doesn't want to separate like that.
Also, when you use a road racer design like mine and are in a turn your inside knee is so close already (knee dragging) that the distance to the ground is about the same as a recumbent. It's these super tall uprights that give the longest fall to the ground.
Somehow professional bicycle racers manage to crash on their bikes and usually come out somewhat okay. But most of those occur at speeds lower than 35 miles an hour. On the flat the peleton usually cruises at closer to 25 miles per hour. It's only on the downhill that these guys risk it and on the Tour De France coverage they always have some spot on the track where some past racer died on a downhill.
Elbow and Knee pads combined with something to protect the sides of your hips should be enough... (helmet and gloves too)
Okay... enough off topic remarks... back to the bike...
The nice thing about tight fitting road racing leathers is that when you hit the ground the skin is held next to the body so it doesn't want to separate like that.Also, when you use a road racer design like mine and are in a turn your inside knee is so close already (knee dragging) that the distance to the ground is about the same as a recumbent. It's these super tall uprights that give the longest fall to the ground.
Somehow professional bicycle racers manage to crash on their bikes and usually come out somewhat okay. But most of those occur at speeds lower than 35 miles an hour. On the flat the peleton usually cruises at closer to 25 miles per hour. It's only on the downhill that these guys risk it and on the Tour De France coverage they always have some spot on the track where some past racer died on a downhill.
Elbow and Knee pads combined with something to protect the sides of your hips should be enough... (helmet and gloves too)
Okay... enough off topic remarks... back to the bike...
recumpence
1 GW
I just got an email that my motor shipped.
I am excited to get this thing installed.
I will post pics of it when it arrives.
Matt
I am excited to get this thing installed.
I will post pics of it when it arrives.
Matt
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