The E-cumbent - A project by Matt Shumaker

But, I figured if I am going to blow alot of money on E-bike stuff, I may as do what I really want to do no matter how much time it takes to do the machining... But, hey, this if fun!

Exact;y! :p

2600w is nothing to scoff at, but there are some here who run triple that through a hub motor. Granted, that motor, the Crystalyte 5000 series, weighs 25lbs. Still, no one's ever overheated one. :twisted:

Though wouldn't call damageing the frame cool at all! It's quite painful, since a motor getting loose tends to damage or destroy other bits.

What size battery did you say you're building? 48v10ah? I tthink you should be open to the fact that once you get your bike oout on the road, you'll find you'd enjoy more capacity. And you'll want to find a way to carry a charging setup on board for opprotunity charging. Unguarded AC outlets are surprisingly plentiful if you just look. :mrgreen:
 
Welcome Matt.
We are all hoping that your project turns out to be everything you are expecting. If it does, and proves to have durability as well as the power and performance expected, it will it be a near quantum leap in e-Bike design.

And besides that, power transmitting machinery as pretty, compact and light as you have made it just deserves to work from an aesthetic standpoint alone ;)

Thanks alot, guys. I feel very welcome here (much more so than the Yahoo groups I am a member of)
I agree... most of the folks here are great... one of the nicest forums on the net, yet serious knowledge too.
 
Thanks again.

I am sure I would like more capacity. I am ready to double my capacity. But, I need to find out how much I ride it versus time to recharge.

I am sure it will run well. How well is another story.

I am one who like to make things beautiful as well as functional.

I will definately post my results as I test the bike.

Matt
 
Hi Matt

Great to see you join the forum here and glad to see you are taking on board some of the comments as a lot of folks tend to bite a little when their machines or creations are questioned. The job you have done on this bike is superb really top notch, there may be a few glitches but thats all part of the fun of the build isnt it, there arent many folks on this board with that level of machining skill or with the tools to do it, I would love a setup like yours in my garage as machining and machinists seem to be a bit of a dying breed in general and its nice to be able to design your own stuff inside on the computer and then go outside to machine it! I have looked in to getting a little CNC machine setup for a while I would be interested to learn more about your setup.

Back to the bike, have you considered a fairing? this will help big time with your range and acceleration, they make some nice fairings for bents. One thing that did occur to me was the position of the gearbox, right under your rear end! when we were testing the Hypnodisc robot from robot wars here in the UK we had a situation where a piece of metal flew off the robot and stuck in a piece of fence, it was alike a bullet, Dave calculated that the velocity of the fragment was the same as a 44 magnum! scary stuff and people here in the UK saw how destructive that robot went on to be and that was with a 750W motor at the time, so have you any protection in the seat incase something lets go at 10,000 rpm? its of course unlikely but possible.

Its a shame you had to fit the torque arm in many ways as it does rather detract from the look of the bike, it looks a lot stealthier without it, I reckon that you wont need it, also you said that increasing the rear sprocket would reduce the torque on the chain? the torque on the chain will be the same large or small surely or am i missing something? there is a guy using one of these motors on a scooter on youtube and it is very noisy, this may be just how the camera picks it up of course.

You are right though there is no quality e-bike kits around really, the nearest are the Bionx and the tidal force, the Xlyte kits are pretty crude but effective, they are made in a small wooden shack in the PRC with very primitive equipment, they dont have anywhere near the basic level of machine tools that you have, but they do turn out very cheap and effective motors that are simple and just plain work well.

I made a big version of your system using a Lemco motor, you can search and find pictures here on the forum, it was great but too heavy and way too powerful for the bike, the little BMC hub motor I now run is easy fast enough 25mph and very light 4lbs in total and being geared very tourquey.

I really cant wait to see your bike in action and some video of the transmission running would be superb, good luck with the pack build as well, you seem to have a good deal of knowledge with the batteries however you can always ask the questions here as there are a lot of informed minds at work here.

Thanks so much for a fascinating a well laid out build report is one of the best I have seen and as I said earlier I would like to see some pictures and details of your CNC setup as well as I am very tempted to run something similar.

All the best

Knoxie
 
The life cycle of Lipo batteries is really dependant on how they are run. They can last 1,000 cycles or more if they are treated well (not too much current pulled from them and a decent amount of capacity left in the cells). Abuse wrecks Lipos. I have alot of experience with these cells. They will probably last far longer than I need them too. I will most likely get better cells before these wear out. :)

As for noise, these motors are super quiet. So, are the belt drives. My CNC is running a similar motor and belt drive. It makes sound, but nothing obtrusive.

Safety is always a concern. However, I have never seen anything let go on one of these motors. Their quality is extremely high. But, if you look at the power unit, the top 1/4 inch aluminum plate is just above the motor. That should protect my rump in the event of a motor failure! :wink:

I have no problem answering questions. I know this is a very unorthodox setup. I am sure very few people in the bike world are familiar with these components. So, it is all foreign to them. No problem. Plus, some of my assumtions and calculations could be wrong. I am open to that possibility.

The torque arm is a finuuy thing. A couple people have told me I won't need it. I will do some testing to find out.

With a larger rear sprocket, there will be less chain torque and therefore, less frame stress. The torque moves to other parts of the system (the rear hub). that is teh part I am worried about. But, I will go to a better wheel and hub if need be.

My CNC is a Taig brand. My manual mill is a Taig also with a 5 axis trunion table. The trunios pivots are made by High Tech Products and the two required rotary tables are made by Sherline. These machines are small and a bit crude, but they work very well. I am 100% self taught. It can be done.

Oh, a comment was made responding to my comment about the 7075 aluminu sprocket being hard to machine. Generally softer aluminum is tougher to machine than hard aluminum. But, that is only true to a point. Once you reach 6061, it begins to get harder to machine. 7075 is the hardest aluminum that I have ever found. It is tough as nails! Actually, I think a nail would be far easier to machine. Plus the sprocket is anodized which adds to the toughness. I asked a couple full time machinists about this and they confirmed this. 7075 is really hard to machine. But, it is phenominal stuff!

I am hopefull everything will be OK. But, there are many things that can go wrong with a project like this. I have been blessed with good luck, so to speak with my one-off projects. I have built many custom heliscopters, RC cars, car audio setups, etc and everything I have ever designed and built has worked and normally without any glitches. I do not mean to sound arrogent, but my mechanical problem solving during the design phaze is super high. I just wish I had better equipment and more money to make more cool projects happen. The design and marriage of many components into one seamless whole is what I enjoy most. But, this is my first E-bike project. It could very well have some serious problems.

Matt
 
This is a hobby. There is no orthodoxy at all. If it works, it works.

You'd be surprised at the crossover between the RC and ebiking communities. I for one double-dip, flying electric foamies ( ...when it isn't too windy. In Oklahoma, this is effectively never). When it comes to batteries, if it's been used for RC, it's been used for ebiking. Nickel, LiPo, a123s, you know the story.

I'd really suggest preparing to double that battery size. You'll find quickly that with a 4kw motor you'll exhaust your 480Wh pack pretty quickly when joyriding. But it'll sure be fun while it lasts. :mrgreen: Such is the nature of the hobby.
 
You are probably right. I will most likely double the capacity. I amsure I will be adicted as soon as I ride it (or as soon as I get the bugs worked out).

I also plan on making a CF console for the various displays and what-not. That should be fun. :wink:

Matt
 
recumpence said:
h, a comment was made responding to my comment about the 7075 aluminu sprocket being hard to machine. Generally softer aluminum is tougher to machine than hard aluminum. But, that is only true to a point. Once you reach 6061, it begins to get harder to machine. 7075 is the hardest aluminum that I have ever found. It is tough as nails! Actually, I think a nail would be far easier to machine. Plus the sprocket is anodized which adds to the toughness. I asked a couple full time machinists about this and they confirmed this. 7075 is really hard to machine. But, it is phenominal stuff!

Welcome to Spendless-Here, Matt :)

I've never had problems machining 6061, 7075 or 2014, in T6 condition, it's mostly down to the size of your machines, I guess.
 
Anything is possible. However, I also go back to my production helicopter. The rotor head was machined on a HAAS CNC. The rotor hub is 7075. We prototyped it in 6061. But, I decided to go up to 7075 for that part to eliminate bending issues we found in testing. When the machinist delivered the parts to me, he said the hubs took nearly 3 times as long to machine due to the tough 7075. However, that being said, the main issue seems to be related to a thin (1/8 inch) end mill that needed to mill 1/2 inch deep into the material. It took more passes in 7075 than 6061. That may be merely the tool rigidity. If that is the case, that could also explain why my small mills chatter machining 7075.

So, after all that typing, you may indeed have a point! :wink:

Matt
 
Hi recumpence, can you tell us more about the controller and the mod you did to it for making it work without the radio control ...would it be possible for us to buy one and make it run with a crystalyte throtle .... i see they have the hydra hv that can run at 50 volts 60 amps and the most powerful is at 240 amps 12000 watts ...wow and to be that small is unbelievable. Plus they have a usb programming link .
 
Yes, you need a component to replicate the pulsed signal normally provided by the reciever. The easiest solution I have found is a simple servo tester. You will also need a component called a BEC. That is an item used to give the logic portion of the control regulated voltage to work with. So, with those 3 components together, these can be used for non-RC purposes.

I am running that setup in my CNC mill right now and it works great!

Matt
 
recumpence said:
So, with those 3 components together, these can be used for non-RC purposes.

Or add a servo or two for the handlebars, and perhaps a servo or landing gear assembly to lower the kickstand, and have an RC vehicle. Ride it to your destination, drop yourself in front, and be your own RC valet. :mrgreen:
 
lazarus2405 said:
recumpence said:
So, with those 3 components together, these can be used for non-RC purposes.

Or add a servo or two for the handlebars, and perhaps a servo or landing gear assembly to lower the kickstand, and have an RC vehicle. Ride it to your destination, drop yourself in front, and be your own RC valet. :mrgreen:

You forgot on-board video so it can be run "from the cockpit" :mrgreen:

Matt
 
Hm, so I did. :mrgreen:

I'm very interested in the speeds you'll actually get with those aerodynamics, and what you'll feel isn't too scary with that frame (because of good or bad ground clearance, suspension, wheelbase). I might want to move to a bent when my department store bike's frame inevitably dies, and I like the looks of that frame.
 
Matt

Just looking again at your build description, I see you've used XL (0.20") pitch belt for the initial reduction, and 5mm HTD belt for the secondary reduction. The pitch of these belts is very similar, so is the real difference in the height/profile of the teeth? I was also wondering why you went for three relatively modest reductions instead of two larger reductions. Was it simply to keep the assembly compact or was there some other factor?

I'm toying with the idea of doing something similar but using a two-stage reduction to a freewheeling chainwheel, with a belt reduction for the first stage and chain reduction for the second stage. This would need an overall reduction of around 50:1, so ideally the initial reduction would be around 7:1. Do you think this would work with 5mm HTD belt and what would you suggest as the minimum tooth count for the motor sprocket?

Sorry to bombard you with questions :)
 
Malcolm,

Gates Powergrip GT3 5M (5mm pitch) would probably be the best for your first stage reduction, I think. It has the edge over all the others for load capacity. You can get Polychain in 5M but only in the U.S. and only up to 800mm belts. The greater the spec. the narrower the belt that you can use...
 
I would agree. the HTD powergrip would be good for a primary reduction. However, the XL pitch is lower drag for high RPM applications. XL pitch belts are good for up to 20,000 pulley RPM. The HTD 5mm belts are alot less efficient at high RPM, but can take alot more torque. that is why I went with XL pitch for the primary reduction and HTD for secondary. The XL pitch can tolerate the innitial higher RPM (10,000 motor rpm), while the HTD will handle the higher torque of the secondary stage. The HTD belts have deeper tooth engagement, rounded tooth profile, and straight teeth (from tooth depth to top of rounded tooth) versus XL belts that have a tapered tooth profile. Also, HTD 5mm belts are far thicker for less stretch than XL. Prices are only marginally different. I go primarrily to SDP/SI (Stock Drive Products/ Sterling Instrument). 10 tooth is the smalles tooth count available for timing pulleys. But, that small size is inefficient. It is best, if possible to keep the smallest pulley over 12 teeth. That also gives better torque rating.

I ran this particular setup for compact layout (keeping it all under the seat) and for the reasons stated above.

I can pedal my bike at 25 mph or 30 mph bursts. It is super fast and efficient.

Matt
 
Matt,

It would be interesting to get some measurements of the efficiency of your drive train. When I can afford it, I'm planning to get a PowerTap built into a 20" rim, so that I can do some testing on mine.
 
recumpence said:
Anything is possible. However, I also go back to my production helicopter. The rotor head was machined on a HAAS CNC. The rotor hub is 7075. We prototyped it in 6061. But, I decided to go up to 7075 for that part to eliminate bending issues we found in testing. When the machinist delivered the parts to me, he said the hubs took nearly 3 times as long to machine due to the tough 7075. However, that being said, the main issue seems to be related to a thin (1/8 inch) end mill that needed to mill 1/2 inch deep into the material. It took more passes in 7075 than 6061. That may be merely the tool rigidity. If that is the case, that could also explain why my small mills chatter machining 7075.

So, after all that typing, you may indeed have a point! :wink:

Matt

yea, reaching an 1/8 inch bit 1/2 inch into a part (4x it's diameter) sounds very much like a rigidity problem. That's in the depth range that I'd start looking into getting a soft carbide cutter just for the rigidity. And yea cutting anodizing is nasty, a great way to dull cutters.

Marty

P.S. I know one aluminum alloy harder and stronger than 7075 :twisted: Look for 7068 on McMaster, or find it on Matweb.com http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatID=17660 One of these day's I'll get an excuse to use it!
 
Thanks for the speedy answers! Just one more question: Is Powergrip a proprietary profile or just a high quality brand of HTD belt. What I mean is will a Powergrip belt fit any HTD pulley, or do you have to get pulleys with a Powergrip profile?
 
PowerGrip is a Gates trade name.

If I remember correctly, the PowerGrip profile for 5M differs quite a lot from the HTD profile - at 8M they're more or less the same.

If you give me your speeds and power requirements, I'll put it through MITCalc for you Macolm. I usually calculate at half the no-load speed.
 
Back
Top