The Killacycle & Scotty Pollacheck 7.82 @ 168 MPH 10nov2

Doctorbass

Doctorbass

100 GW
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
7,500
Location
Quebec, Canada East
:shock: a new reccord again!

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fHtAkM3CYLA&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed>

Using a nre 110s 11p pack!!!

DSCN2391.JPG


HiDef: http://www.killacycle.com/photos/albums/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/DSCN2391.JPG



.....A battery pack!!!!

WholeStack.JPG


DSCN2389.JPG


We used copper interconnects instead of the standard nickel tabs. This increased power, and reduced weight. It was also easier to assemble the pack.



the photo site:

http://www.killacycle.com/photos/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/



Hummm it seems that my 13.2V 480A boost pack have some similar cooper... 8) :
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JgJ-BHUXQeQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed>
 
:mrgreen: {-- you mean like this guy here?


When he upgrades to the silver interconnects that the R/C racers use he'll break the record yet again,
if he's willing to spend the two bits per tab. :mrgreen:
He's sprung for the nice phat-ass Anderson's I notice.
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
When he upgrades to the silver interconnects that the R/C racers use he'll break the record yet again,
Click to expand...

I seem to recall in one of their earlier videos that they had more power on tap, but they were limiting it to make sure everything worked properly, and then slowly increasing it to find the limit. I think they ran an 8.1 or something like that. So I would think that they will continue breaking the record with exactly what they have now, just by letting it run more each time. Kind of one of the 'tricks' of the racing game. If you know you can beat the record, just beat it a little bit so that you can beat it again and keep your name in the public's mind.
 
I think they should try using liquid CO2 or N2 to supercool the armature before a run. This would lower the resistance of the armature and give it a little more time before overheating.
 
Nice pile of Batteries, hope the Lifepo4 cells that Don is selling as "Lifebatt" are going to live up to what we all wish for, and then go down in price for 2008... heaven for all us ebikers.
 
We use 0.005" thick copper strip, rather than individual tabs. Silver might be interesting to try. It would be slightly better conductivity and thus could weigh slightly less. Its melting temperature would be slightly lower, which could possibly make it easier to spot weld.

Anybody know a source for 0.004" thick x 1.5" wide rolls of silver shim stock?

Folks usually get the opposite impression when looking at the size connector and cables we use. They usually think they should be larger. If you do the math, you discover that they are sized optimally. If you make them thicker, you gain HP, but not at an amount that "pays" for the weight added.

Cooling isn't the issue with the motors. It is commutation. The commutators arc over and plasma when the combination of amps, RPM, and voltage just gets too much.

Bill Dube'


When he upgrades to the silver interconnects that the R/C racers use he'll break the record yet again,
if he's willing to spend the two bits per tab. :mrgreen:
He's sprung for the nice phat-ass Anderson's I notice.[/quote]
 
We run the bike just as fast as we know how at every event.

We indeed ramp up the power during each event, always starting with a modest "shake down" run. However, we always turn it all the way up and give it everything we have got by the end of the day/event.

Each time we run the bike, we learn something new. We also scrape together a few more pennies to modify something on the bike between events. Thus, the bike evolves and often (but not always) goes faster at each race we attend.

Bill Dube'

[I seem to recall in one of their earlier videos that they had more power on tap, but they were limiting it to make sure everything worked properly, and then slowly increasing it to find the limit. I think they ran an 8.1 or something like that. So I would think that they will continue breaking the record with exactly what they have now, just by letting it run more each time. Kind of one of the 'tricks' of the racing game. If you know you can beat the record, just beat it a little bit so that you can beat it again and keep your name in the public's mind.[/quote]
 
KillaCycle said:
We indeed ramp up the power during each event, always starting with a modest "shake down" run. However, we always turn it all the way up and give it everything we have got by the end of the day/event.


Bill Dube'
Click to expand...

I would have thought that the battery would give it's best when fresh on the day & slightly rested.
How many times during the day's event do they get recharged & how long is the turnaround between runs?
Or does the one charge last you the whole day?
 
Forget everything that you used to know about batteries.

The A123 Nanophosphate cells deliver the same power (watts) over most of the state-of-charge (SOC) curve. That is, the impedance really doesn't chage significantly for most of the discharge cycle. (Weird, huh?)

When we set the 8.083 record at Bandimere back in September, we were out of track time for the day. We needed to "back up" that run to make it an official NEDRA record, so we drove the bike directly back to the starting line without even slowing down at the pits. (No recharge. No controller cooling.) We ran an identical 8.083 but added 4 MPH to set the record at 163 MPH.

It took us 3 minutes, 36 seconds to bring the battery pack back up to 95% SOC.

We could theoretically make 13 runs without recharging. However, we recharge each time because we want to do other services to the bike, and the bike goes just a touch faster if it is fully charged. There is also a risk of reversing (and thus damaging) cells if you discharge them to close to zero SOC and pull big amps out of them.

I should note that ALL rechargable batteries prefer to have "fresh" charge for maximum power output. This is well-documented, but poorly understood.


Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
KillaCycle said:
We indeed ramp up the power during each event, always starting with a modest "shake down" run. However, we always turn it all the way up and give it everything we have got by the end of the day/event.


Bill Dube'
Click to expand...

I would have thought that the battery would give it's best when fresh on the day & slightly rested.
How many times during the day's event do they get recharged & how long is the turnaround between runs?
Or does the one charge last you the whole day?
Click to expand...
 
Rich Rudman ,http://www.manzanitamicro.com> has lent us a PFC-50 charger. It puts out over 10,000 watts.

We use about 700 w-hr (0.7 kW-hr) for each run down the strip. This includes the drive to anf from the pits, the burn-out, and a record-setting 160 mph+ run. Sometimes we use less, actually.


Ypedal said:
Quote "It took us 3 minutes, 36 seconds to bring the battery pack back up to 95% SOC. ":

sweet jezus... that's so cool ! ( makes my 12hr full charge look mighty unappetizing )

How many wh do you consume on one drag ?

Oh and Bill, It's Great to see you on the forum !! that's awsome !
Click to expand...
 
I guess I misunderstood the video. My bad. Thanks for setting it straight and giving us an inside into your program. It's cool to have you on here.
 
Wow !!! it's very great to have you here ! and i think all of us appreciate the precious advice you share to us!

Welcome!... I see Bill Dube under each reply, is that you? or someone else of the team?

I began to play with A123 cells from 5 months now and the way i got them is by getting deffective 36V dewalt pack from the service center and by removing the 2 or 3 deffective cells inside and keeping the great one. these cells cost me under 5$ each and i got around 200 from now.

I tested and retested each cells and i learned alot about them. People here are using these and appreciate alot these becose of their competitive advantage with ebike. The main goal now is to desing a great charger and a great BMS. we consider many idea about charging them but the most stable and secure seems to use one charger per parallel group.. 20s would mean 20 charger to get the CC-CV. about the bms to protech the vattery about the LCV and keep them balanced, some member of that forum designed pretty great and simple circuit about that, BUT FOR SURE ,WE WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW YOUR DESING :wink: we found a PDF explaning the base of the circuit but i admit that i dream about getting your schematic :D .

I missed something and i would appreciate if you could explain me that:
a 10kW charger for a 374V 8s pack is around 3.5A of current to recharge each cells right? so how could you charge the pack in less than 4 minutes?

4 min = 34.5A per cells for the charge and that would mean 276A for the 8p and at 374V it's 75600W of power to charge the pack from 0 to 2300mAh per cells and your charger have 10kW?

Doc
 
I participated in the BMS development, but Steve Ciciora and Derek Barger (denverCNC.com) did the circuit design, etc. Thus, the details are more theirs than mine, so I'm not the one to ask for the design schematic.

Also, the BMS we use on the KillaCycle is only suitable for drag racing. As it is built, it would not work at all for a daily driver EV.

You ask about fast charging, and you don't understand how we charge so quickly, but you should take the time to read what I posted completely.

I'll say it again. We only take about 700 W-hrs per run. Thus, we can recharge in about 4 minutes. 700/10400 = 0.067 hr = 4.038 minutes. Often, we use considerably less than 700 W-hr so it takes even less time to charge. The charger can draw 50 amps from the outlet. The charger output wattage depends on the input voltage. If we get 240 volts, the charger wattage is 12,000 watts.

10,000 watts into 375volt works out to 27 amps. We are 11 cells wide these days, so that gives 2.4 amps per cell.

If it were someone else on the team, they would put their own name at the end of the post. Wouldn't you?

Bill Dube'


Doctorbass said:
Wow !!! it's very great to have you here ! and i think all of us appreciate the precious advice you share to us!

Welcome!... I see Bill Dube under each reply, is that you? or someone else of the team?

I began to play with A123 cells from 5 months now and the way i got them is by getting deffective 36V dewalt pack from the service center and by removing the 2 or 3 deffective cells inside and keeping the great one. these cells cost me under 5$ each and i got around 200 from now.

I tested and retested each cells and i learned alot about them. People here are using these and appreciate alot these becose of their competitive advantage with ebike. The main goal now is to desing a great charger and a great BMS. we consider many idea about charging them but the most stable and secure seems to use one charger per parallel group.. 20s would mean 20 charger to get the CC-CV. about the bms to protech the vattery about the LCV and keep them balanced, some member of that forum designed pretty great and simple circuit about that, BUT FOR SURE ,WE WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW YOUR DESING :wink: we found a PDF explaning the base of the circuit but i admit that i dream about getting your schematic :D .

I missed something and i would appreciate if you could explain me that:
a 10kW charger for a 374V 8s pack is around 3.5A of current to recharge each cells right? so how could you charge the pack in less than 4 minutes?

4 min = 34.5A per cells for the charge and that would mean 276A for the 8p and at 374V it's 75600W of power to charge the pack from 0 to 2300mAh per cells and your charger have 10kW?

Doc
Click to expand...
 
Hi Bill,

It is indeed amazing that you participate here at Endless Sphere, we all share your desire to push the technology faster and faster.

Also, I hope your now fully recovered from your little 'incident'. Another record has certainly restored any dignity you lost.

Can I ask what are the max amps pulled off the line and is it motor design, rather than the ability to deliver electrical power that is your limiting factor, as per your comments about commutation.

Ian
 
It's wonderfull indeed to se you here. No wonder DocBass is gushing a little. :lol:
Next time you change your pack and are wondering what to do with all you abused cells, think of us :wink:

killacycle is an inspiration to us all, Well done Bill Dube!
 
Yes, big welcome Bill, you have god status here. 8)

Since the "EV Grin" is a function of current squared, you must have a serious bug catcher.

Like Jozzer says, when it comes time to discard that battery pack, keep us in mind. I'm still running *lead* :cry:

Several of us are working on a practical, yet cheap BMS for A123 cells. Re-inventing the wheel in a way.
 
Once dignity is lost, I'm not sure if it can be regained. ;)

The Zilla can deliver 2000 amps to each of the motors, but we are limiting that to about 1500 each (while in series) because we can't get that much traction.

There are multiple limitations. Where shall I begin? If I was going to pick one, I'd point to the motors. We are trying very hard to move over to an AC drive. In theory, it should be lighter for the HP and torque delivered to the rear tire. The spinning mass should be MUCH lighter. It also should be able to cram more area under the HP curve. That is, we should be able to hold the traction limit for longer, and more steadlily, and also we should be able to hold the motor(s) in HP limit for longer.

Traction control off the line will be much more sophisticated with an AC drive.

We als need to lose weight on the rest of the bike.

The next generation "ultra" cells from A123 Systems will deliver twice the specific power. We are slated to get them next season.

Bill Dube'

ChopperMan said:
Hi Bill,

It is indeed amazing that you participate here at Endless Sphere, we all share your desire to push the technology faster and faster.

Also, I hope your now fully recovered from your little 'incident'. Another record has certainly restored any dignity you lost.

Can I ask what are the max amps pulled off the line and is it motor design, rather than the ability to deliver electrical power that is your limiting factor, as per your comments about commutation.

Ian
Click to expand...
 
KillaCycle said:
I participated in the BMS development, but Steve Ciciora and Derek Barger (denverCNC.com) did the circuit design, etc. Thus, the details are more theirs than mine, so I'm not the one to ask for the design schematic.

Also, the BMS we use on the KillaCycle is only suitable for drag racing. As it is built, it would not work at all for a daily driver EV.

You ask about fast charging, and you don't understand how we charge so quickly, but you should take the time to read what I posted completely.

I'll say it again. We only take about 700 W-hrs per run. Thus, we can recharge in about 4 minutes. 700/10400 = 0.067 hr = 4.038 minutes. Often, we use considerably less than 700 W-hr so it takes even less time to charge. The charger can draw 50 amps from the outlet. The charger output wattage depends on the input voltage. If we get 240 volts, the charger wattage is 12,000 watts.

10,000 watts into 375volt works out to 27 amps. We are 11 cells wide these days, so that gives 2.4 amps per cell.

If it were someone else on the team, they would put their own name at the end of the post. Wouldn't you?

Bill Dube'


Doctorbass said:
Wow !!! it's very great to have you here ! and i think all of us appreciate the precious advice you share to us!

Welcome!... I see Bill Dube under each reply, is that you? or someone else of the team?

I began to play with A123 cells from 5 months now and the way i got them is by getting deffective 36V dewalt pack from the service center and by removing the 2 or 3 deffective cells inside and keeping the great one. these cells cost me under 5$ each and i got around 200 from now.

I tested and retested each cells and i learned alot about them. People here are using these and appreciate alot these becose of their competitive advantage with ebike. The main goal now is to desing a great charger and a great BMS. we consider many idea about charging them but the most stable and secure seems to use one charger per parallel group.. 20s would mean 20 charger to get the CC-CV. about the bms to protech the vattery about the LCV and keep them balanced, some member of that forum designed pretty great and simple circuit about that, BUT FOR SURE ,WE WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW YOUR DESING :wink: we found a PDF explaning the base of the circuit but i admit that i dream about getting your schematic :D .

I missed something and i would appreciate if you could explain me that:
a 10kW charger for a 374V 8s pack is around 3.5A of current to recharge each cells right? so how could you charge the pack in less than 4 minutes?

4 min = 34.5A per cells for the charge and that would mean 276A for the 8p and at 374V it's 75600W of power to charge the pack from 0 to 2300mAh per cells and your charger have 10kW?

Doc
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Thanks Bill for your explanation.

Now, I understant about the700Wh per run for a recharge of 3.xx minutes..

Doc
 
Bill, I know you are sponsored by A123 but would you think about trying the ultra capacitors?? Very high current, high volt in short time would be great for short runs like you do... noh?

Or the SAFT battery? 250C !!! http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/VL12V.pdf

Their power density sounds great too... 12000W per kg !!! twice the 5000W of the A123 ... I know in the case of the killacycle you more need Watts per kilogram then Wh per kilogram.. anyway, you recharge before each run..

or a Mr fusion??? 8)
bike2.jpg


with some lightning... i'm kidding...


Doc
 
Do the math and you will discover that batteries work better than caps on the drag strip.

It takes a minimum of 500 W-hrs to get the bike down the strip. We do this with 186 lbs of A123 Systems cells.

Calculate how many pounds of caps it would take to hold this much energy.

I can go on about the fact that the caps can't deliver their full energy at any significant power output. I can also talk about how the caps can't deliver the HP at the END for the strip, where it is required. (Almost no HP needed at the starting line. However, the arguement is over just comparing the engery requirement.


Doctorbass said:
Bill, I know you are sponsored by A123 but would you think about trying the ultra capacitors?? Very high current, high volt in short time would be great for short runs like you do... noh?

Or the SAFT battery? 250C !!! http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/VL12V.pdf

Their power density sounds great too... 12000W per kg !!! twice the 5000W of the A123 ... I know in the case of the killacycle you more need Watts per kilogram then Wh per kilogram.. anyway, you recharge before each run..

or a Mr fusion??? 8)
bike2.jpg


with some lightning... i'm kidding...


Doc
Click to expand...
 
What you mean i is that caps give their max power at the begining of discharge and that it's not suitable for drag race and that the max power required is almost at the end , I understand.

And about the SAFT what is your opinion? have you heard about those cells?
 
AC drive has a lot of advantages. The software for the controllers is much better these days. No more fireballs (at least around the commutator).
Is Otmar going to make a 3 phase Zilla?
 
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