The "True Cost" of Batteries?

Given those specs I doubt anything can beat that price... or can it be beat?


lol, check this:

1 times 10AH nimh cell
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1573

2 times 10C rate sub c cell.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1573


Total capacity 16.6 AH Max amps 80. (assuming 2C discharge for the 10AH cell) Cost $11.53 before volume discounts


3 x linked nicad: 15AH Max amps (not listed) cost $14.25 b4 discount
 
Actually "AA" batteries are the best deal "on paper", but when it comes to handling such a large number of batteries it starts getting to be too much work. I'm setting my "limit" to 120 batteries maximum and ideally I want them in 12 tubes of 10 each. Lithium presents a problem because they are really long and narrow and can't be placed in tubes, so another big factor is "ease of use". The Lithium is lighter, but more expensive and will require special pack building skills and knowledge. The other batteries are for "idiots" like myself that just want things to be simple. Here's a chart of where my analysis is getting me so far. (see below)

The "W/Hr" is the voltage times the amp hours to yield "Watt Hours".

:idea: What is attracting me the most is the idea of being able to buy the NiCad "D" batteries first (which have a long life) and then upgrade to some NiMh "D"'s later and since I'll be making two nearly identical bikes the tubes and batteries can be swapped back and forth. I'd be sure to get chargers (4) that would be able to charge either type. Seems the most "flexible" and "affordable" of the solutions.

The NiMh cost almost twice as much, but have twice the energy.

It's nice to build in an "upgrade path" from the start...
 
Safe, I don't know if you've seen this website before but have a look. Its about a guy who built those battery tubes like you want to. And then he did it a different way the second time.

http://pages.videotron.com/guizzmo/page20.html
 
D-Man said:
Safe, I don't know if you've seen this website before but have a look. Its about a guy who built those battery tubes like you want to. And then he did it a different way the second time.

http://pages.videotron.com/guizzmo/page20.html

That was very interesting.

I can see the problem, that if you don't use a spring loaded cap that when things heat up they expand and then when they cool they contract. After repeated usage you would get spaces that would open up between the batteries and the system would not work well.

Tests have shown that using silver paste actually gives BETTER performance than soldering, so I think I will take the guys advice and go forward with those two critical issues. (I pretty much was aware of the problems already)

It's too bad the guy gave up before completing the job. But I can understand if things don't work out to get nervous and want to retreat to the conventional approach.

Lesson learned... but for him, lesson not applied... :cry:

You should try reading this:

http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/products/SPTs/powerpaste.html

My attitude is that if I can't get the "tubes" approach to work then I switch to Lithium and build a pack the "hard way".


Power-Paste-chart.gif
 
The "hard way" just takes more time....if you expand half as much effort building a battery as you do graphing controllers, well, it'll end up great no matter which cell you pick.
 

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That sure look like some good paste Safe.
 
xyster said:
The "hard way" just takes more time....if you expand half as much effort building a battery as you do graphing controllers, well, it'll end up great no matter which cell you pick.

That pack is a "work of art".

You never know, I might end up doing the conventional approach in the end, but I have an eye towards simplification and if it's just a matter of getting a few details right and then you have a "no-brainer" pack then that's a positive for everyone down the road, especially me.

Eventually they will sell lithium batteries in boxes like car batteries (like Valence does) so everything we do in the meantime is just temporary anyway...
 
It continues to boggle my mind that battery manufacturers are not making BIGGER larger voltage batteries for use on bikes, wheelchairs, as power packs etc..
 
They make them, but not at an affordable price yet.

We need car battery sized Lithium batteries that have all the safety "know how" packed into them. But Valence does have them... if you don't mind spending over $1000 per battery.


U-Charge%20RT-U1-lo%20res.jpg


For the first time in the industry, Valence Technology, Inc. delivers Lithium-ion technology in universal Lead-acid sizes for large format applications. The U-Charge® Power System is a family of 12-volt Lithium-ion energy storage systems that offers twice the run-time and a significantly lower total cost of ownership than standard Lead-acid deep cycle applications.

Traditionally, the motive industry has relied on Lead-acid batteries to power devices such as wheelchairs, scooters, electric bicycles, marine vehicles and more because Lead-acid was the only choice. The U-Charge® Power System Family is changing that! Today, the U-Charge® system is conveniently packaged in standard Lead-acid sizes ideally suited for a variety of motive applications. Utilizing Saphion® Lithium-ion technology, the U-Charge® system combines superior performance with safety features making it the high-end alternative to Lead-acid deep cycle battery solutions.

 
It's funny how the price of car ownership is greatly inflated, while the cost of e-biking is "pennies" in comparison.

http://www.valuride.com/electric_bicycles_newsroom.htm#Cars_cost_their_owners_more_than_$7,800_a_year

From the same site:

"Get 465kms per liter on a Veloteq!
Equivalent electrical energy cost to one liter of gasoline in Vancouver on 04/22/2006."

Because all of us know that nothing ever breaks on an e-bike, tires never wear out, batteries last thousands of cycles... does anyone have any real cost numbers for their e-bike? Taking every last cost into account including depreciation. Let's see the real numbers.
 
Wow, $7,000 + dollars on average for a car.

Seems to me that a lithium battery powered car that could get just enough power to satisfy the basic performance needs could be buildable and every 3-5 years you just have to buy new batteries. If the price is averaging less than $2 gasoline equivalent then it could work.

I've calculated the battery cost of an electric bike and compared it to a car, but the full "life cycle" analysis is harder to justify because they are two different things. You can't be a "Soccor Mom" with an electric bike.

A better comparison is "gas motorcycle" verses "electric motorcycle" or compare cars.
 
No the comparison should be between an electric Car/minivan and personal mobiliy electric bikes/motorcycle vs a car. how many vehicles per family is average in the US? Expect an electric bike per person, one electric minivan per family.

A female coworker was B@#$ err talking about how she'd go electric in a minute if there was an electric vehicle available that could transport kid husband and groceries all at once without having to build it or convert it.
 
safe said:
Wow, $7,000 + dollars on average for a car.

Seems to me that a lithium battery powered car that could get just enough power to satisfy the basic performance needs could be buildable and every 3-5 years you just have to buy new batteries. If the price is averaging less than $2 gasoline equivalent then it could work.

I've calculated the battery cost of an electric bike and compared it to a car, but the full "life cycle" analysis is harder to justify because they are two different things. You can't be a "Soccor Mom" with an electric bike.

A better comparison is "gas motorcycle" verses "electric motorcycle" or compare cars.

How many cycles are you assuming for the lithium pack to get 3-5 years out of it? If I were to bike to work, I'd be looking at 2 charge cycles per day, as my commute is 32km. Most lithium cells seem to be rated around 3-500 cycles, which means I'd wear out a $$$ pack inside of a year. $2 to $4 per ride depending on speed.

A lithium pack large enough for a car would carry a large cost per cycle. I've never looked into it, but are the batteries friendly to recycle?
 
Sweet. This really needs to be calculated.

I think a useful metric for the daily "cycle user" would be one that calculates the total amount of output wh over its lifespan(Defined by some arbitrary decrease in capacity, say, 85% of original capacity.) and compare that to the price.

The lowest price/wh ratio is the "cheapest" in the long run. But, there are many more effects that I'm knowingly excluding such as "induced demand". Anyways, when I get the time, I'll try to tabulate this information. Anyways, I'm more concerned about consumable costs rather than one time costs, as the consumable costs make up the largest expense in ones lifetime assuming one tries to reuse as much as is practical.
 
Yeah, but it's hard to be sure about since most of us haven't found the true real life lifespan of lifepo4 packs that have no defects or misuse.

Then you have to guess what the actual chances of a certain pack going the distance or having a problem.

Trying to guess at some of this, I calculate my cost for a 30 mile round trip on the lithium ebike at $3.00, a 150 cc ice scooter at $5.00, and the used subaru car at $15. As the vehicle upgrades you can of course do a lot more with it. Hopefully you can reach a point with any vehicle where you have paid off or written off the purchase price, and now have only operating costs. The ebike of course rules again for cheapness since a 30 mile ride costs about 15 cents for the electricity vs about $3.00 for gas at this weeks price. Since I bought a new motor I need to ride a few miles to be back in the free ride zone.

Anyway, I figure a day on the bike puts at least $12 in my pocket, so in a way I do get paid for the extra time it takes. Of course having more than one ebike blows that savings away but I really like having a back up the wife can occasionally ride. I don't drive unless I need to carry big stuff or the weather is bad enough. No telling how long I will make the car last now. The west is big though, so I still end up driving 10,000 miles a year.
 
True, very true. Let's take guesses and see where the numbers fall. I'll assume the average depth of discharge is around 70% and, I'll ignore the capacity drop as it ages in the calculations - As long as this error is consistent, the results will remain comparable. I'll be using the unit "Wh/dollar" and a higher number is better.

SLA

I last purchased 48V "12Ah" lead batteries at nearly $100. Under my use with a 20 amp controller, they delivered about 7 AH before reaching cut-off. Since it's projected they would've lasted about 200 cycles before reaching 85%, that's 200cycles*7Ah*44V = 61.6 kWh of useful energy delivered over their lifetime. 61.6 kWh/100 = 616 Wh/dollar. (Or, about 20-30 miles per dollar assuming something like 20 to 30 wh / mile.)


LiFePO4

Ping lifepo4 - 48V at 10Ah is about $420 at current, including shipping. They will probably last about 1000 cycles before dropping down to 85% (And the newer ones might even last longer since they have a better internal resistance than the older ones). That's 48V*10Ah*1000 = 480 kWh. 480kWh/$420 = 1142 Wh/dollar. (Or about 39-57 per dollar assuming something like 20 to 30 wh /mile.)

NiCad

Jeez, I haven't found the best pricing for this chemistry as I've largely ignored it. But I'll take ebikes.ca's pricing and take 70% of that to find the price of "2C" nicad, to make the chemistry's performance comparable to the batteries I've calculated thus-far. Anyways, it appears 48V 8Ah 5C nicad is $350 from ebikes.ca, which includes shipping. Taking 70% of that is equal to about $250. It seems their cycle life is also around 1000? So, 1000*48V*8Ah = 384 kWh. 384 kWh/$250 = 1536 wh/dollar. Using ebikes.ca's pricing, this would be around 1090 wh/dollar. Also, their longevity is proven by history. (At the hypothetical 2C rate and price, that's about 51-77 miles per dollar.)

Ok, based on the projections, it appears lifepo4's long-term pricing is about 2 times as cheaper in the long-run than SLA, but if you can find cheaper "lower rate" nicads that aren't crap, then it seems like comparable performance can be had at a lower long run price. But, this assumes that you'll use the lithium on a regular enough basis to see its 1000 cycle life before its "calendar life" takes a heavy toll on it, and the same with the NiCad. The break-even point, for lithium being compared to SLA, is when lifepo4 lasts twice as less than projected (500 cycles to 85% of original capacity), but I don't think we have had evidence of that kind, yet, and I'm pretty sure it would exist if that were the case.

It appears the provable long-run operating costs of 5C NiCad is equivalent to the unproven long-run operating costs of 2C LiFePO4, and it appears that "lower C" quality nicad can be had cheaper. So, on the basis of long term operating costs alone, it seems like Nicad is the best. But then there's headways cells and those are a little cheaper than ping(Taking into account costs like a BMS and time for construction - essentially, building costs.) but for practical purposes, it seems they're nearly equivalent and if they last 1000 cycles, then that would suggest that the 5C ebikes.ca nicad has a nearly equivalent long-run operating cost as the headways and they're comparable in performance.

So, apples for apples, it appears higher performance 5c nicad and lifepo4 are equivalent although the lifepo4's lifespan from Headway remains unproven.

So, at 5C, nicad seems to be a safe choice although if lightness and newer unproven technology is your thing, then lifepo4 seems like a good choice. At 2C, nicad would probably be significantly cheaper but I'm not sure if "2C nicad" exists and near the price levels I predicted. But, if I were a buyer for 2C technology, I would most definitely choose nicad after this assessment assuming my assumptions are almost accurate. The fact I chose 2c lifepo4 probably was more due to my ignorance and the "herd mentality" that I was more vulnerable to as a beginner. Anyways, after this assessment, I have to wonder - Why isn't NiCad more talked about?
 
Very interesting to see the nicads beat sla by so much for the cost per mile. My calculations were pretty conservative, including about $300 per year for bike mainenance and or replacement, possible annual motor replacement, or controller replacement. All that mechanical stuff really pushed the cost per trip to work up, just like it does on the car. Interesting to see how cheap the battery only is. roughly 2 cents a mile? So 3 cents including the electricity. Not bad at all.

The 5c nicads from ebikes-ca are worth the money. I wouldn't want lower c rate cells because of voltage sag issues with them. I have both ping lifepo4 and two 24v nicad packs from Justin and love both for different reasons. The nicads are kinda cool since I can run them series or paralell and I have no worries about shelf life on em, I know for a fact it's at least 10 years. So those get run on weekends usually, and may be around a long long time. I'm thinking of getting another one in 36v, so I'll have 24, 36, 48, and 60 v covered for any bike with a 500-700 watt motor I ever have. Too expensive to have that range of voltages in lifepo4. The rub with the nicads is weight if you need more than 8 ah of it. Also you might have to wait to charge em till they cool off. But I definitely recomend them as the way to go if your ride is under 12 miles of full throttle riding.
 
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