This is how A123 care about quality control
- Thread starter miro13car
- Start date
999zip999
100 TW
Thank you. You have gone beyond your Call of Duty. Lol
we are lucky to have you.
too many faceless bloggers
we are lucky to have you.
too many faceless bloggers
whatever
100 kW
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 1,297
3 cells of replacement cells soft areas near top, seems person who organised sending out replacement cells, still not going through proper channels, has created bad publicity for a123, for top dollar prices cells should be in perfect condition.
All seems quite dodgey even if cells have good capacity.
All seems quite dodgey even if cells have good capacity.
dnmun
1 PW
no, A123 is not dodgy.
it is the repeat performance of the purchaser that is suspect.
trashing them here before even working with A123 showed where he was going and his frustration with not being allowed to have the cells free that he claimed were defective was a clear indication of intent imo.
it is the repeat performance of the purchaser that is suspect.
trashing them here before even working with A123 showed where he was going and his frustration with not being allowed to have the cells free that he claimed were defective was a clear indication of intent imo.
miro13car
100 kW
facts are facts,
do you ignore facts?
I really cannot record on pictures soft spots of A123 pouches cells..
Simply when you run your fingers over surface of pouch from the bottom to the top , closer to top near terminal/usually near right terminal/ you definitely run into soft sort of air bubble , you grab that spot from two sides with fingers and it wobble back and forth.
Only 3 cells have it.
You believe it or not I do not care, why bother to read???
there are tens of other member who read this thread everyday and form opinions.
do you ignore facts?
I really cannot record on pictures soft spots of A123 pouches cells..
Simply when you run your fingers over surface of pouch from the bottom to the top , closer to top near terminal/usually near right terminal/ you definitely run into soft sort of air bubble , you grab that spot from two sides with fingers and it wobble back and forth.
Only 3 cells have it.
You believe it or not I do not care, why bother to read???
there are tens of other member who read this thread everyday and form opinions.
wb9k
10 kW
miro13car said:
That's where the tab welds are. If there's a bit of excess electrolyte inside the cell it collects there and makes what you have--a soft spot that doesn't hurt a thing.
I haven't walked away from this...I'm still investigating. I tore down the worst of the wrinkle cells today. It had the issue I suspected (the others probably do not), but was actually a very mild case. Another perfectly good cell on the scrap pile....I'll report more when I have had time to get feedback from others.
The isolation seals constituted at least one, maybe two legitimate returns, although the cells were indeed actually safe for use (there was no breach of isolation). All 8 cells, of course, have already been replaced. I'll give more details on the the seal issue too (the problem that led to their release has been resolved for a while now) after conferring with the wider team at work.
Since we're rattling sabres here again, I'll pass on that StorTronics has put this buyer on a "do not sell" list. They do not want to deal with him again, and neither does A123. Not personal, just facts. I was talking with one of the guys in cell quality this morning, and he pointed out something that will surely occur to others before long. With OEM's and large customers you only have to explain this stuff once for every few million cells you sell. Here, we're doing it for every 20 cells we deliver. I'm working to help get StorTronics set up with some decent documentation on the cells and their use in packs. Some of it may already be on their site, I haven't had time to check. This should probably include an FAQ that addresses the concerns that have been raised by Miro and surely will be raised by others in the future regarding wrinkles and the like. I don't believe such a document exists yet, and it will take time to create. Please be patient and know that we are working hard to improve all aspects of what we do. Thank you.
arkmundi
10 MW
Thanks wb9k for your continued patience and work! Yea, I'd appreciate a periodic update or two after you've completed your analysis.
whatever
100 kW
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 1,297
That is totally wrong response from a company, they wont sell to miro13car again, not that he would ever buy from stortronics or a123 again. So a customer sends back top dollar cells that had legitimate defects and he is the person who has done wrong?
Hope those involved realise this is a public forum.
Hope those involved realise this is a public forum.
wb9k
10 kW
whatever said:
Oh we do. The fact that he ran here before giving anyone a real opportunity to respond is the reason for the ban.
wb9k you have the patience of saint. The Sphere is very grateful for your understanding.
I think this thread is a great indication of why battery vendors generally want to have nothing to do with members of the public. And who could blame them - there is some amount of chancers out there and apparently on here too.
I think this thread is a great indication of why battery vendors generally want to have nothing to do with members of the public. And who could blame them - there is some amount of chancers out there and apparently on here too.
Ykick
1 GW
Joseph C. said:
Well said...
wb9k
10 kW
Joseph C. said:
Thanks for the kind words. My colleague in cell quality I mentioned earlier told me that when he worked at Cobasys, they had a series of meetings entitled "The problem of hobbyists", which is unfortunate but understandable. The OEM's can be difficult to deal with, but the volume of product makes these discussions seem like a very small price to pay. Plus, the big customers have signed NDA's that forbid them from running here (or anywhere else) and posting everything we tell them for the whole world to see. That obviously isn't how things go through a public sales channel. So, the public must be addressed in different ways....I am hopeful we can find a way to do that in a way that strikes a balance between the need to protect company information and customers' right to know what's up with what they just bought.
bigmoose
1 MW
I commend your and A123's corporate commitment to help hobbyists and perhaps some small entrepreneurs to secure true state of the art quality. For others I know how hard this can be. When I had an email that ended in a major aerospace player, I tended to get responses to questions from vendors. When I retired, and started my own small company, similarly worded requests were completely ignored. Thankfully I was a consultant to that "big name" and could still get into the vendor's door that way. In america it is very difficult for a "little guy" to get any of the "real stuff."wb9k said:
I personally highly respect this endeavor of wb9k and A123. I also feel if we (as a community - that is bigger than ES by the way) do not respect the effort, it will be withdrawn.
dnmun
1 PW
it is actually now becoming commonplace for people to post up trashing threads about battery manufacturers here.
they seem to come on here and start a line about how their battery doesn't work and really are fishing for some line of argument to use to force the seller to replace the battery for them. usually they say the BMS is defective but none of these people have any idea how a BMS works or how to test it. but that is what they always claim is wrong. there is the guy with the rodent avatar on the sunthing battery thread who said his BMS was defective so he trashed sunthing guy even though there was no proof his BMS had failed.
people can say anything and never have to prove that what they claim is defective is actually defective.
i do not think this guy ever showed a single bit of evidence to prove the pouches were defective but there were all those people piling on about how the creases were where all the heat would show up on flir and other garbage that did not relate at all to whether the pouch was defective. i saw no evidence that it was and instead he has to come here and defend the reputation of his company for no reason.
they seem to come on here and start a line about how their battery doesn't work and really are fishing for some line of argument to use to force the seller to replace the battery for them. usually they say the BMS is defective but none of these people have any idea how a BMS works or how to test it. but that is what they always claim is wrong. there is the guy with the rodent avatar on the sunthing battery thread who said his BMS was defective so he trashed sunthing guy even though there was no proof his BMS had failed.
people can say anything and never have to prove that what they claim is defective is actually defective.
i do not think this guy ever showed a single bit of evidence to prove the pouches were defective but there were all those people piling on about how the creases were where all the heat would show up on flir and other garbage that did not relate at all to whether the pouch was defective. i saw no evidence that it was and instead he has to come here and defend the reputation of his company for no reason.
whatever said:
If he wouldn't buy from Stortronics again, what is the problem with Stortronics taking the same attitude towards future transactions? This is that "the customer is always right" nonsense.
Some business try out price rises on their most annoying customers because it's a win-win situation: Either the customers baulks at the new price and never comes back, or they pay up, making dealing with them more bearable.
nicobie
100 MW
Punx0r said:
You just let out a important business pricing secret. I've used it successfully for years.
whatever
100 kW
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 1,297
So wb9k states that
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67941&start=25 )
wb9k ( a self appointed representive of a123) writes:
To discredit miro13car? And there is the issue of the illegality of publishing someone elses private emails on a public forum.
So a123 has non-disclosure agreements ( NDA's) with big customers, but then an a123 employee (wb9k) publishes a private emails between miro13car and stortronics ( on this page
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67941&start=25 )
wb9k ( a self appointed representive of a123) writes:
Then he goes onto publish here a private email.......what the? What was the point of publishing private emails, what was the motivation for doing that?
To discredit miro13car? And there is the issue of the illegality of publishing someone elses private emails on a public forum.
999zip999
100 TW
Move on.
arkmundi
10 MW
Second that motion to move-on.
agniusm
1 MW
Perhaps that should off be done before releasing cells to public. Its a weird model to me and then A123 or Stortronics go about complaining about unhappy customer. First there was no information, guidelines on the cells so Miro took whats on A123 website as a guideline. If photos of the cells are pristine, he thought that what he should get. There was no small print that minor wrinkles do not affect cells performance and that so many or such shape is within manufacturers range of what is A grade and what is not.wb9k said:
My opinion is that A123 and Stortronics failed to prepare to bring these cells to public and there is no Miro fault. You (A123 and Stortronics) should stop crying and start resolving issues that were not accounted for. And Miro did great job bringing this up here, now there is attention and perhaps for next customer it will be clearer.
Actually he done a good job for A123 and Stortronics non intentionally telling what should be done so customers are more aware.
jmac
10 mW
I think the vast majority of hobbiysts are not familiar with industrial manufacturing...
Should there be education on what is good and what is not? Probably... should A123 have done that before releasing for hobbyist use? Yeah, proabably again...
The reality is, though, that large scale manufacturing companies honestly don't know how to prepare the hobby market that may be using their products. Producing for other industrial manufacturers is completely a different game.
B2B no one is going to do a visual inspection of cells like this, they are going to say "A123 says these are the specs, and that all cells purchased meet XYZ." Depending on the level of trust and verification the business may perform testing on either a random batch or all cells. If they meet the specs laid out they will use the product.
These cells are getting strapped into batteries of dozens (hundreds?) of cells, and minor imperfections are to be expected. Honestly, even a small percentage of failed product is to be expected. (Sad but true). Even today with potentially thousands of verification procedures.
99% customer satisfaction is absolutely out of this world, 95% is very good, 90% is still quite good. If you figure the end user has 100 cells and you are shooting for 90% success (admittedly a car has a lot of things that can go wrong other than the battery) that only means you need 9 good batteries for every 10, and most cars are probably built to accept at least 1 bad cell per battery (my experience is in other industries where these types of workaround numbers are common, I am not sure in batteries) all you need is 90% of the batteries to only have 1 bad cell and assume that 10% will have 2 bad cells.
Why does it work like this? Simply because the cost of perfection is very high, there's the joke that the last 10% of efficiency takes 90% of the work. It's simply cheaper to replace a certain amount of product under warranty than to double the cost to get 99% and then double again to get 99.9% and double again to get 99.99%. And, honestly, at least in the computer world 4 nines (99.99%) is considered fantastic and 5 nines (99.999% is considered among the best in the business).
I don't know where A123 shoots for as far as quality, I assume somewhere between 99% and 99.99%. The reality is that some bad cells are going to get out, it looks to me like A123 went above and beyond by leaps and bounds to take an international return (almost no company I have ever worked with, regardless of how much I've spent, and I'm talking budgets 100-1000x what is being discussed in this thread, absorbs the cost of international returns) in replacing cells for a customer that they just lost 2x what they made on. I recognize that the internet has changed things, so maybe more companies consider it PR cost today...
So, 1, maybe 2 bad cells (easily within tolerances for a manufacturing process, as much as wb9k really seeks prefection) is bad luck. Cosmetic issues that are within tolerances... seriously? Compress the pack to specifications listed in papers and get over it.
I, personally, would love to see hobbyist documentation, but I fully understand that the market doesn't actually provide enough revenue to even pay people to put it out. I also am fully aware that the research that wb9k listed, and people feel that he promised (read back, he didn't, he was going to see if he was allowed to post), cost the company a lot to produce and is therefore probably a trade secret.
A123 is probably making $10 profit per cell sold, Stortronics is probably making $30 per cell. StorTronics then probably only broke even at best and A123 has lost several hundred dollars in manhours, shipping, replacement, etc. And this was on an order that they would have made $200 and $600 (absolutely at most) respectively. Both companies have warehousing, sales people, marketing, R&D, etc. costs on top of this. So what this works out to is that you either won't see small quanity (below 10k?) or you will see small quantity pricing go through the roof in the future because someone has to pay for this.
And the joy of all of this? Some patience before posting publicly probably could have gotten everything sorted out for half the cost and everyone, A123, StorTronics, and Miro would have been happy.
I have almost never seen a company rep spend this much time on a community forum, both in this thread and others, providing information on the products and technology of a large manufacturing company to the public. In a number of my other hobbies I would come close to killing to have access to someone like wb9k and the sad part is that most of the people on this thread don't seem to know how good they have it.
The sad part, to me, though, is that I have no designs coming up that would use A123 cells, but I'm looking for something because I really want to support any company that lets someone like wb9k help out on a forum like this. His posts would be squashed by so many companies PR deparments it isn't even funny.
</end soapbox>
My first love as a hobby is electronics, both low and high voltage. We do have access to some people from the likes of TI for instance, and that's one of the reasons I tend to prefer their parts when given the option, many of the big names you can get 1-10 parts or 100k+ and nothing in the middle and have access to incredibly limited documentation. Or simply think how likely it would be that a Panasonic or Samsung rep would be here to discuss their cells, because they simply are forbidden to even on their own time.
Should there be education on what is good and what is not? Probably... should A123 have done that before releasing for hobbyist use? Yeah, proabably again...
The reality is, though, that large scale manufacturing companies honestly don't know how to prepare the hobby market that may be using their products. Producing for other industrial manufacturers is completely a different game.
B2B no one is going to do a visual inspection of cells like this, they are going to say "A123 says these are the specs, and that all cells purchased meet XYZ." Depending on the level of trust and verification the business may perform testing on either a random batch or all cells. If they meet the specs laid out they will use the product.
These cells are getting strapped into batteries of dozens (hundreds?) of cells, and minor imperfections are to be expected. Honestly, even a small percentage of failed product is to be expected. (Sad but true). Even today with potentially thousands of verification procedures.
99% customer satisfaction is absolutely out of this world, 95% is very good, 90% is still quite good. If you figure the end user has 100 cells and you are shooting for 90% success (admittedly a car has a lot of things that can go wrong other than the battery) that only means you need 9 good batteries for every 10, and most cars are probably built to accept at least 1 bad cell per battery (my experience is in other industries where these types of workaround numbers are common, I am not sure in batteries) all you need is 90% of the batteries to only have 1 bad cell and assume that 10% will have 2 bad cells.
Why does it work like this? Simply because the cost of perfection is very high, there's the joke that the last 10% of efficiency takes 90% of the work. It's simply cheaper to replace a certain amount of product under warranty than to double the cost to get 99% and then double again to get 99.9% and double again to get 99.99%. And, honestly, at least in the computer world 4 nines (99.99%) is considered fantastic and 5 nines (99.999% is considered among the best in the business).
I don't know where A123 shoots for as far as quality, I assume somewhere between 99% and 99.99%. The reality is that some bad cells are going to get out, it looks to me like A123 went above and beyond by leaps and bounds to take an international return (almost no company I have ever worked with, regardless of how much I've spent, and I'm talking budgets 100-1000x what is being discussed in this thread, absorbs the cost of international returns) in replacing cells for a customer that they just lost 2x what they made on. I recognize that the internet has changed things, so maybe more companies consider it PR cost today...
So, 1, maybe 2 bad cells (easily within tolerances for a manufacturing process, as much as wb9k really seeks prefection) is bad luck. Cosmetic issues that are within tolerances... seriously? Compress the pack to specifications listed in papers and get over it.
I, personally, would love to see hobbyist documentation, but I fully understand that the market doesn't actually provide enough revenue to even pay people to put it out. I also am fully aware that the research that wb9k listed, and people feel that he promised (read back, he didn't, he was going to see if he was allowed to post), cost the company a lot to produce and is therefore probably a trade secret.
A123 is probably making $10 profit per cell sold, Stortronics is probably making $30 per cell. StorTronics then probably only broke even at best and A123 has lost several hundred dollars in manhours, shipping, replacement, etc. And this was on an order that they would have made $200 and $600 (absolutely at most) respectively. Both companies have warehousing, sales people, marketing, R&D, etc. costs on top of this. So what this works out to is that you either won't see small quanity (below 10k?) or you will see small quantity pricing go through the roof in the future because someone has to pay for this.
And the joy of all of this? Some patience before posting publicly probably could have gotten everything sorted out for half the cost and everyone, A123, StorTronics, and Miro would have been happy.
I have almost never seen a company rep spend this much time on a community forum, both in this thread and others, providing information on the products and technology of a large manufacturing company to the public. In a number of my other hobbies I would come close to killing to have access to someone like wb9k and the sad part is that most of the people on this thread don't seem to know how good they have it.
The sad part, to me, though, is that I have no designs coming up that would use A123 cells, but I'm looking for something because I really want to support any company that lets someone like wb9k help out on a forum like this. His posts would be squashed by so many companies PR deparments it isn't even funny.
</end soapbox>
My first love as a hobby is electronics, both low and high voltage. We do have access to some people from the likes of TI for instance, and that's one of the reasons I tend to prefer their parts when given the option, many of the big names you can get 1-10 parts or 100k+ and nothing in the middle and have access to incredibly limited documentation. Or simply think how likely it would be that a Panasonic or Samsung rep would be here to discuss their cells, because they simply are forbidden to even on their own time.
agniusm
1 MW
I think wb9k is here as a hobbyist and not A123 rep. The thing that wb9k is sharing some information is commendable but no one is making this matter personal about wb9k, just a discussion about an event and different opinions on how it had to be dealt with or how it should have been.
I am happy where the world is going with internet and available data so individuals can invent and manufacture by themselves and big corporations are no more monopoly with the attitude.
Maybe Miro is inventing something that will use A123 cells and those 20 cells will turn out to be thousands per month in a years or two time? Look at the Rimac Automobili. Few years back, no one knew about them. Is that not worth investment in preparation of proper documentation which is logical from the beginning? Is Alltrax or Curtis the likes bigger than A123? I know they have all the relevant data about their products, schematics, diagrams, guidelines, testing procedures and they sure would advise on their 10 year old product if i asked politely.
I am happy where the world is going with internet and available data so individuals can invent and manufacture by themselves and big corporations are no more monopoly with the attitude.
Maybe Miro is inventing something that will use A123 cells and those 20 cells will turn out to be thousands per month in a years or two time? Look at the Rimac Automobili. Few years back, no one knew about them. Is that not worth investment in preparation of proper documentation which is logical from the beginning? Is Alltrax or Curtis the likes bigger than A123? I know they have all the relevant data about their products, schematics, diagrams, guidelines, testing procedures and they sure would advise on their 10 year old product if i asked politely.
dnmun
1 PW
you are totally wrong. there was nothing wrong with these cells. this guy has a history of using the endless sphere to trash the seller of his batteries after he purchases them.
when he demanded the right to keep the pouches he determined to be defective it was just as though his entire scheme of extorting product from the manufacturer was exposed and you people play along like fools.
there was nothing wrong with these cells. they just do not look like the one in the picture so that was his "engineering" judgement that allowed him to demand he get them for free.
when he demanded the right to keep the pouches he determined to be defective it was just as though his entire scheme of extorting product from the manufacturer was exposed and you people play along like fools.
there was nothing wrong with these cells. they just do not look like the one in the picture so that was his "engineering" judgement that allowed him to demand he get them for free.
agniusm
1 MW
I have not stated that there is something wrong with cells in my posts although wb9k said that one cell had defect and second one possible defect 
Miro made stupid thing buying cells that are out of our league at 65usd. I purchased new n/leaf cells with 500wh capacity for 80USD instead of 66wh for 65usd
:lol:
This whole thing is a pure nonsensical joke :lol:
Miro made stupid thing buying cells that are out of our league at 65usd. I purchased new n/leaf cells with 500wh capacity for 80USD instead of 66wh for 65usd
:lol: This whole thing is a pure nonsensical joke :lol: