This is how A123 care about quality control

agniusm said:
Maybe Miro is inventing something that will use A123 cells and those 20 cells will turn out to be thousands per month in a years or two time? Look at the Rimac Automobili. Few years back, no one knew about them. Is that not worth investment in preparation of proper documentation which is logical from the beginning? Is Alltrax or Curtis the likes bigger than A123? I know they have all the relevant data about their products, schematics, diagrams, guidelines, testing procedures and they sure would advise on their 10 year old product if i asked politely.
Click to expand...

I've fielded private messages here from Mate Rimac asking about various issues he's had with cells. He's a class act with a brain in his head, and would never pull a stunt like the one that started this thread.

I think the company has responded to this complaint just fine, even though they were not approached politely. Steps will be taken to improve the documentation situation further.

You think the controller companies are going to give you schematics of their electronics? Seems unlikely. An installation schematic is something you absolutely can't work without, so of course they provide that. Curtis has been around for decades and probably IS bigger than A123.
 
It's really not. Not compared to supplying OEMs. Also, what are we all told to expect when buying batteries from Hobbyking? At least one dud pack in every order, so order a spare!

This thread is back to where it was before: speculation instead of waiting for actual results of the quality examination.
 
Just read this thread. Let me see if I understand. Guy pays $65 per cell, receives one different than advertised, which has imperfect manufacturing. He bitches about it, rationally expecting perfect cells. Whatever the op history, he has a legitimate reason for doing so. If you let a defective product out your door, which has occured here, end of story imho. Tthe customer has done nothing wrong, only bitched in public. If I got these batteries, I would have posted on here, and bitched, and so would the rest of you. The fact that there is personal involvement here, has made this cloudy. If you buy from a123, get a damaged/defective product, and tell anyone, your a bad man, and we won, t sell to you anymore? Liveforphysics seems the best informed, and reasonable Info so far, delivered without any personal agenda. There is a sharp fellow, and he presented facts, wrinkles bad. I for one would not want to have to deal with returns/shipping etc. when purchasing any product, who would? when it got to the point of suggesting espionage, especially after trying so hard to find a way to blame customs/shippers etc, it became embarassing, for a123. In the end you got angry, took your ball, and went home. Oh you kids.
 
he did not get a damaged product. you cannot make stuff up and decide things based on made up and false information.

all of you people are just used to being able to say stupid stuff on the internet because you have no sense.
 
wb9k said:
agniusm said:
Maybe Miro is inventing something that will use A123 cells and those 20 cells will turn out to be thousands per month in a years or two time? Look at the Rimac Automobili. Few years back, no one knew about them. Is that not worth investment in preparation of proper documentation which is logical from the beginning? Is Alltrax or Curtis the likes bigger than A123? I know they have all the relevant data about their products, schematics, diagrams, guidelines, testing procedures and they sure would advise on their 10 year old product if i asked politely.
Click to expand...

I've fielded private messages here from Mate Rimac asking about various issues he's had with cells. He's a class act with a brain in his head, and would never pull a stunt like the one that started this thread.

I think the company has responded to this complaint just fine, even though they were not approached politely. Steps will be taken to improve the documentation situation further.

You think the controller companies are going to give you schematics of their electronics? Seems unlikely. An installation schematic is something you absolutely can't work without, so of course they provide that. Curtis has been around for decades and probably IS bigger than A123.
Click to expand...

But nobody is talking about chemical composition of A123 AMP20.
Things like handling these cells, things like compression needed for these cells, guidelines for pack building, cooling etc, etc. There was something on 26650 but not these cells.
Miro approached the way he felt. I'm sure anyone here who paid top dollar for cells and got at least one cell that might be somewhat defective would be furious, I would. Paying top $ I expect my order to go as smooth as silk, nothing less.
Back in the day when China supply of AMP20 was at its peak, I bought these cells. Most of them came at 0.1V. I contacted supplier and with a little push they sent me out replacement cells free of charge and I am talking about China, not US of A, suit yourself what to take from this.
 
He did, by dubyas admission recieve a faulty product, though he claims the wrinkles are harmless, there has only been evidence shown that they are indeed detrimental to the cells performance. expecting to get what you pay for is not stupid. Blindly defending your pal, and insulting others, certainly is. Something, even as a relative newcomer, I have come to expect from you. Must get lonely in your world.
 
dnmun said:
he did not get a damaged product. you cannot make stuff up and decide things based on made up and false information.

all of you people are just used to being able to say stupid stuff on the internet because you have no sense.
Click to expand...

You need to go back and re read this thread.
Wb9k has stated that some were defective .
 
He said 1 or 2 of the cells may have been legitimate returns. However, all the cells met advertised performance specs, so they weren't really damaged. Just less than perfect. And most of the damage seemed to be from shipping. I'd say A123 went above and beyond what should reasonably be expected with their customer service here.
 
thepronghorn said:
He said 1 or 2 of the cells may have been legitimate returns. However, all the cells met advertised performance specs, so they weren't really damaged. Just less than perfect. And most of the damage seemed to be from shipping. I'd say A123 went above and beyond what should reasonably be expected with their customer service here.
Click to expand...


What type of damage were you expecting to show up from a capacity measurement?

Less than perfect (bent/wrinkled etc) is not OK for pouch cells, that seems to be the core misunderstanding.
 
liveforphysics said:
thepronghorn said:
He said 1 or 2 of the cells may have been legitimate returns. However, all the cells met advertised performance specs, so they weren't really damaged. Just less than perfect. And most of the damage seemed to be from shipping. I'd say A123 went above and beyond what should reasonably be expected with their customer service here.
Click to expand...


What type of damage were you expecting to show up from a capacity measurement?

Less than perfect (bent/wrinkled etc) is not OK for pouch cells, that seems to be the core misunderstanding.
Click to expand...

If by "not OK", you mean "less than perfect", then I think everyone understands this just fine as I've clearly laid out more or less what the consequences of these minor, primarily cosmetic, defects is, and I will be getting more specific about it soon. (I usually like to have better timing through the lab, but I have been particularly heavy with knotty, unusual cases for the last few weeks.) The only cells that did not meet spec were the 1 or 2 isolation seal cells, and in a properly built pack, the chances that this would ever develop into a real problem is very remote.

As much as you seem to hate it, we do not live in a world where mass produced goods are either "perfect" or "scrap". Nobody mass producing anything has ever operated that way and it's unlikely that anyone ever will. I'm thankful to jmac, Bigmoose, punx0r, and others who have written some particularly insightful posts to this effect. I appreciate knowing that I'm not the only one here who isn't living in some kind of vacuum.
 
agniusm said:
Things like handling these cells, things like compression needed for these cells, guidelines for pack building, cooling etc, etc. There was something on 26650 but not these cells.
Miro approached the way he felt. I'm sure anyone here who paid top dollar for cells and got at least one cell that might be somewhat defective would be furious, I would. Paying top $ I expect my order to go as smooth as silk, nothing less.
Back in the day when China supply of AMP20 was at its peak, I bought these cells. Most of them came at 0.1V. I contacted supplier and with a little push they sent me out replacement cells free of charge and I am talking about China, not US of A, suit yourself what to take from this.
Click to expand...

Actually, over a length of time, Mate and I covered every one of the subjects you list. There is a world of difference between somebody like that, and somebody who thinks it's OK to come here and start screaming "FRAUD" before people can even get an email letting them know that something is wrong.

Of course the sellers of stolen scrap don't want their garbage back---they'd have to dispose of it themselves then. They don't give a rat's ass about getting them back because even if they did, they have no insights to gain by looking at them. They're not the maker, they're (for the most part), shady back-alley types. Yet we're the bad guys because we care enough to want to know exactly what went wrong here? That's ridiculous. These are the consequences of doing warranty service the right way. You can't call this bad policy and claim to want what's best for quality at the same time. They are diametrically opposed.
 
...The only cells that did not meet spec were the 1 or 2 isolation seal cells, and in a properly built pack, the chances that this would ever develop into a real problem is very remote. ....
Click to expand...
:shock: That is not the kind of statement that should be heard from a QA or CS professional !
Probably very similar to what A123 might have said about the original pouch welder defects ! :roll:
 
Hillhater said:
...The only cells that did not meet spec were the 1 or 2 isolation seal cells, and in a properly built pack, the chances that this would ever develop into a real problem is very remote. ....
Click to expand...
:shock: That is not the kind of statement that should be heard from a QA or CS professional !
Probably very similar to what A123 might have said about the original pouch welder defects ! :roll:
Click to expand...

OK, so what's your professional assessment of the risk? You seem to think you know what the risks of these exact cells are, so how about you tell us what they are. Please be specific.
 
just amzing how these people with no technical background, people who already stated going to college is a waste of their time, people who never had any manufacturing responsibility or ever held a real job where they had to make decisions can just come on here and claim that they are engineers and they think this is junk. because it has creases in the mylar.

then the stupid insults about how i am defending A123 as though i am some stooge. what a group fagging idiots. all in support of this guys scam.
 
wb9k said:
Hillhater said:
...The only cells that did not meet spec were the 1 or 2 isolation seal cells, and in a properly built pack, the chances that this would ever develop into a real problem is very remote. ....
Click to expand...
:shock: That is not the kind of statement that should be heard from a QA or CS professional !
Probably very similar to what A123 might have said about the original pouch welder defects ! :roll:
Click to expand...

OK, so what's your professional assessment of the risk? You seem to think you know what the risks of these exact cells are, so how about you tell us what they are. Please be specific.
Click to expand...

My comment was not related to any risk factor, but to the dismissive comment regarding known out of spec components.
Maybe I should translate what you said, into what the customer hears...
wb9k said:
...The only cells that did not meet spec were the 1 or 2 isolation seal cells, and in a properly built pack, the chances that this would ever develop into a real problem is very remote. ....
Click to expand...
Customer/lawyer hears....
..."We know some cells are bad but we think they will be OK. But if they fail it will be because you built your pack wrong"!

As an individual you might think that, but as a representative of the manufacturer, and a direct interface with customers, to make comments like that on a public forum is unprofessional

It's unrealistic to ask me to be specific about any risk from a component I have not inspected or have detailed knowledge of.
All I could do is assume the assessment of the manufacturers representative that some of these cells .."did not meet spec" was correct.
Consequently I would expect any pack built with them included should also be considered "sub-standard" and inherently carry a higher risk than a pack built with all " in spec" cells.
 
Well, I do consider the risk factor when making statements like that because they do in fact matter, and they obviously play a role in management's decision-making processes. Everyone knows this, it's just that most people are afraid (or forbidden) to speak the truth. The spiel you just gave me is something I've heard over the years, but it's out of step with my philosophy. OTOH, I've also been told that customers trust me because it's quickly apparent that I call them like I see them without regard to the political consequences. AFAIC, that's my job...to speak the frank truth to the fullest extent possible at all times, to all parties.
 
Even within among battery suppliers there is no clear consensus on whether wrinkles are acceptable or not. You also have to be clear whether the question is safety or lifetime.

From everything I've read wrinkle cells should be scrapped, but this conclusion is drawn from post fire cell investigations, not from any study done by a manufacturer. You have provide no data showing that wrinkles are safe. We also have Luke, who deals with these type of fragile pouch cells daily and has visited the factory and headquarters multiple times. When there is no consensus I always err on the side of caution. Like I said before there are too many variables to be weighted. Is it the size of the wrinkle, the number, the location, the depth, etc

I'm more likely to trust the party who has no financial incentive to label wrinkles as acceptable, than the supplier who says there almost no chance or trust me. Show me the data

Remember this scene from fight club?:

-----

Decision to recall

First an excerpt:

From: Fight Club, 1999, Fox

JACK (V.O.)
I'm a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula.
....
JACK (V.O.)
Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of- court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X...

JACK
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

BUSISNESS WOMAN
Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?

JACK
Oh, you wouldn't believe.

BUSINESS WOMAN
... Which... car company do you work for?

JACK
A major one.

[youtube]aQ8UO0yX1to[/youtube]
 
Should the A123 cells be under compression while initially testing for Ri and capacity?

I am asking for concerns of premature wear, as well as accuracy in the readings.
 
regmeister said:
Should the A123 cells be under compression while initially testing for Ri and capacity?

I am asking for concerns of premature wear, as well as accuracy in the readings.
Click to expand...

If you're pushing more than 1C for any of that testing, I would compress at least a bit. A few seconds at 2C might be OK for a DCR test from a cell health standpoint, but compression can alter your DCR measurements too (they'll tend to improve under compression), so you may wish to avoid that as well. Something as simple as some heavy books on the cell should be adequate for the job unless you're putting the cells through heavy paces during your testing.
 
Also remeber a123 caused Fisker to fail and initially claimed the cells were not defective, the problem was a hose clamp according to Vieau, the CEO at the time. Many investors got burned and sued:

4) Vieau’s statement in an earnings call on March 8, 2012, following Fisker’s recall of the Karma vehicles, that the “root cause” of the battery problems was an incorrectly positioned hose clamp that “certainly had nothing to do with the integrity of the packs themselves or the cells or the systems.” Id. ¶ 109.

Plaintiffs contend that all of A123’s statements shared the same fatal defect: A123 “failed to disclose that the Company’s Prismatic Batteries were flawed; the process for manufacturing the Prismatic Batteries at its Livonia, Michigan facility was flawed; the flawed process resulted in defective Prismatic Batteries; and the defective nature of the batteries had a significant and material adverse impact on the Company’s revenue and expenses and jeopardized its relationship with its customers.” Id. ¶¶ 84, 87, 91, 93, 96, 100, 104, 106, 113. According to unnamed sources, the manufacturing process at the Livonia plant was flawed from the outset. Id. ¶¶ 56, 57. Although the plant was producing substandard prismatic cells, A123 continued to increase production to meet Fisker’s demands. Id. ¶ 57. In the attempt to keep pace, the Livonia facility “ignored and discarded” any semblance of quality control resulting in a slew of manufacturing errors that ultimately caused the batteries to fail. See id. ¶¶ 50- 79.
Plaintiffs suggest two avenues by which information about the flaws in the
. The first, however, is merely hypothesized. The anonymous witnesses state that Lou Golato, A123's Vice-President of Operations, and a member of the company’s executive committee, had oversight of the Livonia plant and was “well-aware of the defects that riddled the Prismatic Batteries.” Pl.’s Br. at 11. Because Golato “reported to the ndividual defendants,” Pl.’s Br. at 4, plaintiffs maintain that they must have been aware of the escalating problems with the batteries coming out of the Livonia facility. While the anonymous sources might at best be credited with first-hand information about what Golato knew, there is no plausible suggestion that they would have known what Golato (who might have had his own reasons for covering up the problems at Livonia) may have told the defendants. S
 
really intelligent. quoting a lawyers brief.

if you know that the wrinkles are proof of defect because you read it, then show us the link or produce the paper. or even an author so we can google it.
 
wb9k said:
regmeister said:
Should the A123 cells be under compression while initially testing for Ri and capacity?

I am asking for concerns of premature wear, as well as accuracy in the readings.
Click to expand...

If you're pushing more than 1C for any of that testing, I would compress at least a bit. A few seconds at 2C might be OK for a DCR test from a cell health standpoint, but compression can alter your DCR measurements too (they'll tend to improve under compression), so you may wish to avoid that as well. Something as simple as some heavy books on the cell should be adequate for the job unless you're putting the cells through heavy paces during your testing.
Click to expand...

Thanks wb9k for the reply and suggestions. I will be discharging at 5C. I will compress them then.

I have a stack of cells purchased from cellman several years back, and am finally going to see if any are still good. I did charge them to rest voltage, but that was quite a while a go.
 
dnmun said:
really intelligent. quoting a lawyers brief.

if you know that the wrinkles are proof of defect because you read it, then show us the link or produce the paper. or even an author so we can google it.
Click to expand...

Just read my previous posts in this thread and google it to find the source. You have to remember for any startup company that uses lithium cells, large or small, whether it is Tesla or Zero Motorcycles, Fisker or Lightning Motorcycles, a battery recall is often a fatal blow to the company. This is serious business, even for the "hobbyist" which is a word I try never to use. Tesla seems unstoppable right now but if they had to recall even a small percentage of their battery packs it would be game over. This is the real reason for the gigafactory. To control their own destiny.

Choosing a cell supplier is THE most important decision you will ever make if you ever sell or give away a product that uses lithium cells.
 
dnmun said:
really intelligent. quoting a lawyers brief.

if you know that the wrinkles are proof of defect because you read it, then show us the link or produce the paper. or even an author so we can google it.
Click to expand...

Just read my previous posts in this thread and google it to find the source. You have to remember for any startup company that uses lithium cells, large or small, whether it is Tesla or Zero Motorcycles, Fisker or Lightning Motorcycles, a battery recall is often a fatal blow to the company. This is serious business, even for the "hobbyist" which is a word I try never to use. Tesla seems unstoppable right now but if they had to recall even a small percentage of their battery packs it would be game over. This is the real reason for the gigafactory. To control their own destiny.

Choosing a cell supplier is THE most important decision you will ever make if you ever sell or give away a product that uses lithium cells.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top