This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

[John in CR]

Arlo1 -This is the forum about lightweight electric racing solutions...
Lock- Damn. Where's the forum for folks that just want to get to work and lug the groceries home?

John- Just do like I do, and while you're out on your ebike going to work or fetching groceries hunt down every scooter and small motorcycle you can find and race them. 8)

+1

That's what it's all about for me. The best utilitarian function + the best performance. Having your cake and eating it too is so satisfying. Your bikes are some of the very best at it John.

You're too kind my world traveling friend. Definitely not the best, though Blue has been a real work horse as a car replacement, so I'd stack it up with anything in terms of time saving utility. My goal is that each new build has to be better than all prior in at least one respect or it gets hacked up pretty quick (4 or 5 ebikes no one has seen went this route in the past year). Another goal is to get some many different types of e-powered things on both land and water by the middle of dry season that you simply won't be able to resist coming down for another visit. We gotta start working on a valid business reason for your trip.

Imagine what our ebikes will be like in 10 years, or even 5. That's enough to make me just shrug off the scams. Hopefully this version of cold fusion turns out to be real, but ebike advancement won't be hurt even if it doesn't. In fact, in some ways I think it's better not to be able to leap directly to ecars, because at some point the realization has to come that an extreme weight reduction of all motor vehicles is such a good thing, and us ebikers are riding the crest of that wave with that realization that few truly "get".

John

 

[liveforphysics]

The lipos in the mounting board might work pretty well. The heating element could be in parallel with the lipo stack . .

how much lipo would you need in there to supply 15kW for 18 hours ?
answer 270kw hrs !
Hmm ? .. need a thicker piece of baseboard !

Chemical energy storage my friend.

A single gallon of diesel burned could yeild 37kw-hrs of energy.

 

[liveforphysics]

But, at the same time, tricking temp probes watching exit temps is also childs play, and you wouldn't even need more energy than what he pulled from the wall.

You have a tiny stream that is heated, and aimed at the sensor directly in the flow path. You may have only 2% of the water volume at the temp you're reading on the discharge outlet, but to the human observer it appears like a temp probe right in the outlet path.

 

[Hillhater]

The lipos in the mounting board might work pretty well. The heating element could be in parallel with the lipo stack . .

how much lipo would you need in there to supply 15kW for 18 hours ?
answer 270kw hrs !
Hmm ? .. need a thicker piece of baseboard !

Chemical energy storage my friend.

A single gallon of diesel burned could yeild 37kw-hrs of energy.

Ok, so now he has stashed 7+ gals of diesel somewhere in that rig ?

I say again.. it may well be a hoax, but in that case this guy is the worlds best actor also ! :lol:

 

[liveforphysics]

how much lipo would you need in there to supply 15kW for 18 hours ?
answer 270kw hrs !
Hmm ? .. need a thicker piece of baseboard !

Chemical energy storage my friend.

A single gallon of diesel burned could yeild 37kw-hrs of energy.[/quote]

Ok, so now he has stashed 7+ gals of diesel somewhere in that rig ?

I say again.. it may well be a hoax, but in that case this guy is the worlds best actor also ! :lol:[/quote]

7 gal of diesel would be less than 1 ft^3 of space. Or a simple small feed tube hidden from below with natural gas or hydrogen or whatever.

More realistically, it's damn easy to fake a temp reading in a fluid discharge outlet. You have to put the sensor somewhere in the discharge flow. It's like putting a nice calibrated temp probe into a swimming pool or something. You don't have to have a warm pool, you only need to ensure you've got a local hot spot where the temp readings get taken.

 

[Hillhater]

More realistically, it's damn easy to fake a temp reading in a fluid discharge outlet. You have to put the sensor somewhere in the discharge flow. It's like putting a nice calibrated temp probe into a swimming pool or something. You don't have to have a warm pool, you only need to ensure you've got a local hot spot where the temp readings get taken.

In the OP video, one of the observers /cameraman asked about the outlet temp, and was ancouraged to "feel the pipe" ..
... very hot, was the response.
..come on Luke... that trick would be too easy to spot !..feel the inlet, feel the outlet.

and it wouldn't take a genius to spot a hidden fuel source of that magnitude (270 kWhr).

 

[liveforphysics]

More realistically, it's damn easy to fake a temp reading in a fluid discharge outlet. You have to put the sensor somewhere in the discharge flow. It's like putting a nice calibrated temp probe into a swimming pool or something. You don't have to have a warm pool, you only need to ensure you've got a local hot spot where the temp readings get taken.

In the OP video, one of the observers /cameraman asked about the outlet temp, and was ancouraged to "feel the pipe" ..
... very hot, was the response.
..come on Luke... that trick would be too easy to spot !..feel the inlet, feel the outlet.

and it wouldn't take a genius to spot a hidden fuel source of that magnitude (270 kWhr).

A double-wall insulated pipe is so easy to fake my friend. I could flow ice-water out of a pipe that you think is hot when you put your hand on it, and I would use very little energy to keep it feeling hot. For all of these experiments I've seen, he wouldn't need diddly-squat for energy if he used it correctly to create the desired effects.

Here is a great comilation of similar hoax devices:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/

Not all of these devices are hoaxes. Some of them could actually work and be useful.

One that caught my eye was a large version of a "crystal radio". With a large antenna, tuned circuits and rectifiers, you can suck energy out of the air. This could be especially useful if you lived near a large radio transmitter. I think you can do a similar thing with large overhead power transmission lines. By definition, free energy. You don't have to pay for it.

Looking through his intro PDF, every device that claimed over-unity was an obvious hoax, but a fun read that was clearly written by someone who wants to believe so badly.

One of my favorite lines from it:

"Magnets have continuous power. This should be obvious as one will support itself on the refrigerator for years."

This guy sadly and badly confuses even basic physics concepts, doesn't understand the difference between a force, energy, power, or even mechanical or energy transformation basic concepts, YET! It's still fun to read, and a good beginner exercise for anyone to read and find the critical flaw with each over unity example he tries to make.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Intro.pdf

 

[Hillhater]

Just to fuel the debate ...

Rossi's design uses a nickel powder with catalysts instead of nickel sheets. It is therefore capable of producing much more power. In 2010 they jointly published a paper that reported six different experiments with durations of up to 52 days. The longest experiment used 19 kWh of energy input to produce 3768 kWh of output energy. Output/input power ratios as high as 415 were obtained but, in the interest of safety and stability, the device demonstrated on January 14th runs at a power gain ratio of only 15.

Rossi is betting his own money on success and therefore has no incentive to mislead anyone to raise money.

Rossi has been very responsive to critics, answering questions freely on blogs. When skeptics suggested fraud, he even allowed a physicist at the University of Bologna to modify the test setup and examine the insides of the reactor. He reran the demo for 18 hours with a non-boiling output measurement setup. The 18 kW power output obtained for 18 hours neutralized the skeptics, who had suspected a hidden battery.

Ref..
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/03/low-energy-nuclear-reactions-2-5-million-watt-hours-from-a-nickel

 

[liveforphysics]

Hillhater- I want it to be real as much or more than anyone else. So far what I've seen is all things that would be extremely basic to demonstrate fraudulently. They should have FIA and NHRA race tech inspectors look the device over while running. Or, go one step higher and have some of the most successful FIA and NHRA level cheaters look the device over while running.


There are just so many obvious clues. He says he made "thousands" of devices in developing the one that works well. Yet, you look in pics from over a year ago to recent and it's the same device. Secondly, if you're doing RnD (which is 50% of my job), you make a modular test fixture, and you use unions so you can use the same steam condensers etc for all test chambers. Even in year 1 chem, you NEVER use vessels which can influence the experiment.... He is using a scaley nasty oxidized copper fixture brazed together as one piece, then talking about finding copper in the nickle powder... If he has any legitimate interest in understanding what is happening, he would do it in a non-reactive fixture, particularly when the fixture materials is the decomposition product claim of his experiment... I mean seriously, you're going to build thousands of them and not use a proper vessel for anything? Everything REEKS of a 2-bit conman scam, but... I'm still holding on to the hope that it's real. It's like a 1% hope, but it's still such a big thing even a 1% hope needs to be thoroughly investigated.

 

[Hillhater]

If it is a con, this guy is just the gullible front man...he doesnt have the "smarts" to pass of a con on this scale.
( i cant help thinking "Krusty the clown" ..when i see him !)
I guess i am an "optimistic sceptic" ..trying to keep an open mind..
.. like a few others..
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BarnhartBtechnology.pdf

 

[Mike B]

The lipos in the mounting board might work pretty well. The heating element could be in parallel with the lipo stack . .

how much lipo would you need in there to supply 15kW for 18 hours ?
answer 270kw hrs !
Hmm ? .. need a thicker piece of baseboard !

The thing is, there is no demonstration of 15 kw. 15 kw will move a Jetta at 70 mph . 15 kw of steam would be unmanageable in a small room. 15 kw is real power.

BTW, there is plenty of evidence of something going on with LENR.

 

[fechter]

As described, the reactor output increases at higher temperatures. It would then seem that a 'runaway' would be possible without adequate cooling where the hotter it gets, the more heat it gives off, etc. Also described was the device contains the energy equivalent of an oil tanker or some huge amount. It then seems possible you could create a thrermonuclear hand grenade out of it.

Luke!, where can we get some nickel powder?

 

[Hillhater]

The thing is, there is no demonstration of 15 kw. 15 kw will move a Jetta at 70 mph . 15 kw of steam would be unmanageable in a small room. 15 kw is real power..

Ooops ! yes , sorry about that..
.........it was actually 18kw for 18 hrs ! ( and note they deliberately chose NOT to produce steam)

.... When skeptics suggested fraud, he even allowed a physicist at the University of Bologna to modify the test setup and examine the insides of the reactor. He reran the demo for 18 hours with a non-boiling output measurement setup. The 18 kW power output obtained for 18 hours neutralized the skeptics, who had suspected a hidden battery.

The University of Bologna is a top university with graduates like Copurnicus, Marconi and Galvani.

..as referenced previously.. http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/03/low-energy-nuclear-reactions-2-5-million-watt-hours-from-a-nickel
and also previously posted..http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece

..and also another "demonstration..

....In 2010 they jointly published a paper that reported six different experiments with durations of up to 52 days. The longest experiment used 19 kWh of energy input to produce 3768 kWh of output energy. Output/input power ratios as high as 415 were obtained but, in the interest of safety and stability, the device demonstrated on January 14th runs at a power gain ratio of only 15..

BUT, of course none of these "demonstrations" and "experiments" were run under the kind of controlled conditions or monitored at the levels that would convince us all.
That is what we are all waiting for!

 

[Joseph C.]

It is nearly always more prudent to look at the person rather than the product.

If you were to hand pick one of the worst candidates to invent this new form of energy production you would find it difficult to select anyone other than Rossi.

• You would be hard pressed to find someone with such a disastrous track record.
  
  To my mind, he exhibits the signs of a personality disorder.
  
  The 'tests' have more holes in them than a sieve.
  
  He has got results that are several factors higher than what anyone else in the LENR/Cold Fusion field has obtained.
  
  While the people he has selected to show the device to have very good academic records they are not used to checking for scams.
  
  If you trying to reek of scam these guys are writing the 'How To' guide.

Having said all that, I would love it to be real. The heart hopes but the head says 'who are you kidding...'

 

[Hillhater]

I

If you were to hand pick one of the worst candidates to invent this new form of energy production you would find it difficult to select anyone other than Rossi.:

Its not his "invention" .
Rossi is only the "sponsor", he has funded the development.
The original discovery was by Dr. Focardi back in 1994.

....Andrea Rossi is an inventor and businessman who hired Dr. Focardi in 2007 as a consultant. He has been financing the entire development with his own money.

Some times i wonder if people bother to read any of the references before commenting !

 

[Joseph C.]

I

If you were to hand pick one of the worst candidates to invent this new form of energy production you would find it difficult to select anyone other than Rossi.:

Its not his "invention" .
Rossi is only the "sponsor", he has funded the development.
The original discovery was by Dr. Focardi back in 1994.

....Andrea Rossi is an inventor and businessman who hired Dr. Focardi in 2007 as a consultant. He has been financing the entire development with his own money.

Some times i wonder if people bother to read any of the references before commenting !

I'm not going to pretend that I even half understand the ins and outs of this entangled web.

The original work was by Focardi and Piantelli with Rossi building the 'working' model. Perhaps you should read your own sources more carefully. Nyteknik, whom you linked to, puts Rossi down as the inventor.

I don't get what you saying. On the one hand, you disagree with me but on the other you reference the fact that Focardi is only a consultant which implies Rossi is the inventor. A consultant generally just offers advice and guidance.

 

[Hillhater]

Nyteknik, whom you linked to, puts Rossi down as the inventor.

Actually it states he is "an inventor" ... not "the" inventor.
Which is correct in the case of this process.

..I don't get what you saying. On the one hand, you disagree with me but on the other you reference the fact that Focardi is only a consultant which implies Rossi is the inventor. A consultant generally just offers advice and guidance.

sorry, I guess its just semantics, technically ( possibly legally ?), the Ecat is Rossi's "device" as he has funded the development of Focardi's "excess heat" process into a working unit.
Focardi's title of "consultant" just means he is paid by Rossi to "advise" on the developments.

The main point is ..Rossi did not discover this process, he is simply the sponsor and "front man" of the group trying to patent and commercialise the Ecat.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

where he gets his inspiration

 

[bigmoose]

Finally found a report that had a graph in it. Look at figure 6 in the link below, if the data is not altered, at 10:36:29 the rate of heat addition increased. The explanation given was the eCat "lit off."

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29.

Another expanded test description write up:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/docs/DetailedAnalysisOfRossiDevice.pdf

Here is a systematic critique of the public experiments to date, with recommendations.
http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v323.pdf

 

[Hillhater]

Good finds Moose .
That last 60+ pager is particularly interesting in assessing any possible "fakes" or cons.
The conclusions on page 59 is a good summary.

 

[Mike B]

Its a long read, but worth it http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml

Rossi has done a very good job at selling very little. I don't know if he made a mistake with the steam and fooled himself, or whether he is doing this on purpose, but he even fooled Nasa chief scientist at Langley Dennis Bushnell

Fact remains, he could set his device up in public, turn it on, run it at 5 kw for 12 hours, subject to third part calorimetry, and start an auction. He would walk away with more money than he could ever spend. If he wanted, he could retain control of some aspects (to ensure it does not get buried by some corp (no way, BTW)), or he could specify that xx% goes to his charity of choice. He has already taken the step of doing demos, so he can't say he is against demonstrations. A single demo in public would net him billions if not more.

Seriously, something that is capable of producing 5 kw for months on end would literally change every thing. Manned space flight, transportation, all forms of energy use. The old economy would be undone. The bidding for working tech would be unimaginable. Put Sothbys in charge.

Its a hoax. I wish it weren't.

 

[Joseph C.]

Its a long read, but worth it http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml

Rossi has done a very good job at selling very little. I don't know if he made a mistake with the steam and fooled himself, or whether he is doing this on purpose, but he even fooled Nasa chief scientist at Langley Dennis Bushnell

Fact remains, he could set his device up in public, turn it on, run it at 5 kw for 12 hours, subject to third part calorimetry, and start an auction. He would walk away with more money than he could ever spend. If he wanted, he could retain control of some aspects (to ensure it does not get buried by some corp (no way, BTW)), or he could specify that xx% goes to his charity of choice. He has already taken the step of doing demos, so he can't say he is against demonstrations. A single demo in public would net him billions if not more.

Seriously, something that is capable of producing 5 kw for months on end would literally change every thing. Manned space flight, transportation, all forms of energy use. The old economy would be undone. The bidding for working tech would be unimaginable. Put Sothbys in charge.

Its a hoax. I wish it weren't.

I see that Krivit is the author of a large chunk of that report. According to sources, he has ties with Piantelli, a rival LENR inventor, so he is far from neutral and therefore, like the E-Cat, the whole thing is suspect.

 

[Mike B]

Its a long read, but worth it http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml

Rossi has done a very good job at selling very little. I don't know if he made a mistake with the steam and fooled himself, or whether he is doing this on purpose, but he even fooled Nasa chief scientist at Langley Dennis Bushnell

Fact remains, he could set his device up in public, turn it on, run it at 5 kw for 12 hours, subject to third part calorimetry, and start an auction. He would walk away with more money than he could ever spend. If he wanted, he could retain control of some aspects (to ensure it does not get buried by some corp (no way, BTW)), or he could specify that xx% goes to his charity of choice. He has already taken the step of doing demos, so he can't say he is against demonstrations. A single demo in public would net him billions if not more.

Seriously, something that is capable of producing 5 kw for months on end would literally change every thing. Manned space flight, transportation, all forms of energy use. The old economy would be undone. The bidding for working tech would be unimaginable. Put Sothbys in charge.

Its a hoax. I wish it weren't.

I see that Krivit is the author of a large chunk of that report. According to sources, he has ties with Piantelli, a rival LENR inventor, so he is far from neutral and therefore, like the E-Cat, the whole thing is suspect.

Which sources?

 

[Joseph C.]

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/07/highlights-of-krivits-third-report-on.html

http://ecatnews.com/?p=615

Ben's comment is quite interesting.

It is also mentioned in the Talk Polywell forum but I'm not going to trawl through 300 pages to find it.

It may be true that he is biased or it may not be true. One thing that is clear is Krivit worked with Piantelli previously.

 

[TylerDurden]

Seriously, something that is capable of producing 5 kw for months on end would literally change every thing. Manned space flight, transportation, all forms of energy use. The old economy would be undone.

That's half the problem. Everyone wants something like this to be true.