This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

[Joseph C.]

Well we are in October. Time to see if physics will have to be completely re-thought a la Special Relativity.

Apparently, another test will be happening in Bologna on October 6, and Brian David Josephson, the Nobel Laureate, will be one of the members performing the test as well as a European patent examiner.

This test is going to be a long one, at least over 12 hours long, of one of the E-Cat one megawatt modules.

Here's hoping!

http://ecatnews.com/

 

[bigmoose]

Another Italian worth keeping an eye on is Pinatelli. He has published more openly and described his systems. He has shown radiation after effects in a bubble chamber, but has not claimed anywhere near the excess heat that Rossi has.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/09/28/nasa-advances-evaluation-of-piantelli’s-lenr-research/

"Piantelli’s work with LENR goes back two decades and includes two dozen scientific publications and conference presentations. Piantelli and his colleagues’ only significant challenge came from a group at CERN, the European Laboratory for Particle Physics, but Piantelli’s group published an effective rebuttal.

The Piantelli group’s nickel-hydrogen LENR work remains the most promising demonstration of LENR technology."

There is "something" going on here... and I am not sure what it is... bigMoose on LENR 2011

 

[oldpiper]

Another Italian worth keeping an eye on is Pinatelli. He has published more openly and described his systems. He has shown radiation after effects in a bubble chamber, but has not claimed anywhere near the excess heat that Rossi has.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/09/28/nasa-advances-evaluation-of-piantelli’s-lenr-research/

"Piantelli’s work with LENR goes back two decades and includes two dozen scientific publications and conference presentations. Piantelli and his colleagues’ only significant challenge came from a group at CERN, the European Laboratory for Particle Physics, but Piantelli’s group published an effective rebuttal.

The Piantelli group’s nickel-hydrogen LENR work remains the most promising demonstration of LENR technology."

There is "something" going on here... and I am not sure what it is... bigMoose on LENR 2011

Well, bigmoose, I hate to burst your bubble, but being published doesn't necessarily mean anything (and conference presentations mean less). Just a few weeks ago I was reading in a reputable journal (Fuels, published by Elsevier, one of the largest scientific publishers in the world) an article about some experiments with "Brown's Gas", supposedly water rearranged into "H-H-O", a scam from the late 1970's which shows up nowadays on Internet vendors who also sell herbal Viagra, courses on how to make a million dollars in real estate with no money down, and for a small deposit, directions to recover $31million in recovered Nigerian oil money (don't settle for anything less than $11M, it's not worth your time).

Peer-reviewed or not, there's always some chance that a true piece of crap can squeeze through the cracks.

Cameron

 

[Dee Jay]

are we there yet, daddy??

I gotta pee...

 

[fechter]

Well we are in October. Time to see if physics will have to be completely re-thought a la Special Relativity.

Apparently, another test will be happening in Bologna on October 6, and Brian David Josephson, the Nobel Laureate, will be one of the members performing the test as well as a European patent examiner.

We should know something soon. Most of the famous scams of the past had some kind of large public demonstration that was invariably cancelled or 'delayed' due to some 'technical difficulty' or political reason. If the demonstration actually proceeds as planned, it would be a positive indication.

This thing does not sound all that hard to build in my garage for independent testing. I don't know what the 'secret catalyst' is, but maybe it works at reduced output without it. How many common catalysts are there for hydrogen reactions? Platinum, palladium, maybe iron? Can't afford the first two unless harvested from a car catalytic converter. Then all you need is some nickel, a hot water heater element, and some plumbing parts from the hardware store.

 

[Joseph C.]

We should know something soon. Most of the famous scams of the past had some kind of large public demonstration that was invariably cancelled or 'delayed' due to some 'technical difficulty' or political reason. If the demonstration actually proceeds as planned, it would be a positive indication.

This thing does not sound all that hard to build in my garage for independent testing. I don't know what the 'secret catalyst' is, but maybe it works at reduced output without it. How many common catalysts are there for hydrogen reactions? Platinum, palladium, maybe iron? Can't afford the first two unless harvested from a car catalytic converter. Then all you need is some nickel, a hot water heater element, and some plumbing parts from the hardware store.

We soon will.

The thing is though LENR/Cold Fusion is starting to gain more and more credibility. The U.S. Department of Energy even says that energy is being produced in these reactions and NASA Chef Scientist at Langley. Dennis Bushnell agrees. So the phenomenon appears real.

Rossi though is getting results that are several times higher than anyone else.

 

[bigmoose]

This is one of the best writeups I have come across on the proposed underlaying Widom Larson theory for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. (LENR) Studying it in some detail. As you said, Dennis Bushnell has become a believer and advocate "that something is happening here." He has a decent experiment to confirm Widom Larson in the works and from the scuttlebutt is awaiting approvals, etc. Cutting edge science is always on the verge of lunacy. Can't wait for the experimental results and hope they talk about them openly, one way or the other.

Exciting times, or a big scam... only time will tell.

http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/lattice-energy-llcnickelseed-lenr-networksapril-20-2011

 

[John in CR]

Hopefully it works, but we need to get ready real or not. Let's come up with a new electric motor that is 99.9% efficient at any rpm, is easily scalable, produces at least 10Nm continuous torque per kg, and doesn't even need a controller....just connect a battery, throttle, and on/off switch.

 

[liveforphysics]

If it is real (which I'm 99.99% doubting), then it's going to flip the entire energy industry on it's head, and be the single biggest positive thing to effect humanity since tools and fire.

 

[John in CR]

If it is real (which I'm 99.99% doubting), then it's going to flip the entire energy industry on it's head, and be the single biggest positive thing to effect humanity since tools and fire.

True. If it's real, then 99.9% efficient motors is even more possible. Imagine hubbies at 10Nm/kg and no thermal limitations, but I guess we'd just run straight steam turbine engines instead. For the house I'd want BigMoose to help me with a 10kw free piston Stirling for the durability and silence with that kind of heat source. What kind of engine would you run with that kind of heat source? Let's come up with ideas of how to use it.

 

[bigmoose]

Right now Rossi is allegedly making low grade 100 degC to 120 degC steam. We are not sure how "dry" it is... So we could think about how to convert that low grade heat into electricity.

While I share Luke skepticism on Rossi, I think we may be on the edge of some new discoveries with respect to the weak nuclear interactions. Think what it was like around 1935 with respect to nuclear fission... no one had it, some postulated it, the right experiments had yet to be done. Exciting times! I guess I want to be optimistic about humanity... the option is a return to the dark ages.

 

[Joseph C.]

One more day... 8)

...Then another month for the next test. :wink: Between the Rugby World Cup and this, I'm tingling with excitement.

 

[liveforphysics]

Right now Rossi is allegedly making low grade 100 degC to 120 degC steam. We are not sure how "dry" it is... So we could think about how to convert that low grade heat into electricity.

While I share Luke skepticism on Rossi, I think we may be on the edge of some new discoveries with respect to the weak nuclear interactions. Think what it was like around 1935 with respect to nuclear fission... no one had it, some postulated it, the right experiments had yet to be done. Exciting times! I guess I want to be optimistic about humanity... the option is a return to the dark ages.

Dave- Just curious, as you've got a masters in nuclear physics if I remember right (along with a large group of other degrees), do you think that it's theoretically possible to have controllable weak nuclear reactions?

Can you by chance comment on why someone researching it, who doesn't seem to be fully retarded, would use a reaction vessel made of the material of the claimed byproduct of the reaction? Effectively making it impossible for his own study impossible to actually know if anything is working, or by what mechanism?

I want to believe super badly, but it really seems painfully hoaxy.

 

[bigmoose]

Luke, don't just believe... because I don't either. My advantage, or delusion as time will finally tell, is that I was blessed to be around a German principal investigator that I knew was rigorous, disciplined, slow to draw conclusions, etc. One day he came into my office and said, Dave you need to come to the lab and look at this. He was loading and unloading hydrogen and then deuterium into a bulk palladium. When he loaded hydrogen into the platinum it was exothermic, unloaded the hydrogen it was endothermic. When he loaded the deuterium it was exothermic, when he unloaded it, well it was also exothermic. One of his presentations is out in the public domain at this link http://www.22passi.it/downloads/IPP-Palladium-Fralick-1.pdf Here is the sonoluminescence presentation also in the public domain http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/docs/AIAA5596_JPC07.pdf

But then another day they sent me an string of emails about how the automatic camera caught "something" really strange and intriguing over the weekend in the flask as it was in long run duration mode. They said they thought they may have found the "source" of the excess energy in the flask... hope you enjoy the chuckle:


Hence my belief, "Something is going on." I don't have a clue what it is. Many people smarter than I have spent the last 20 years since Pons and Fleischmann trying to prove it, disprove it, replicate it, etc. None could explain it without 2 or 3 "miracles" happening. Miracles just don't happen in my experience. Then came the Widom Larson theory that I referenced a few posts above. It is the FIRST theory that ties the pieces together. Is it, "IT?" I don't know, but what I do know is, "it IS closer than we were before!"

Time will tell what is encoded into the nature around us. One of the key features that I have pondered is the fact that this "stuff" does not produce the radiation signature that conventional reactions would emit. So the d+ d+ to He4 and a 24 MeV Gamma, is NOT what is going on in my opinion. Widom Larson explains the potential chain of events with near 0 momenta neutrons. We do know the capture cross section scales as 1/velocity so near zero velocity (below thermalized neutrons) there should be a huge cross section for capture.

Once I opined, with no real technical basis for it (other than there is a lot of hot nickel and iron there) that wouldn't it be "funny" if this reaction is what is going on in the core of the earth to keep it warm? Lots of controlled heat, but no radiation to cook us organic life forms... Lots of things to ponder in my ol' age...

 

[Gordo]

Dave;
What is the significance of the bump up in temperature if the average temperature over time stays the same? If you were able to capture the energy in the bump, would the decline after the bump remain the same?

 

[bigmoose]

I think the rates of decline in temperature for times close to the event are nearly the same in his data. I did not personally run statistics on the curves to prove it for sure however. There have been folks opining that the reaction rate is sort of "windowed" That too high a concentration, or too low and it just "shuts off." It does not proportionally decline like turning down a gas flame. It is like going above and below the flammability limits with a fuel... but we don't know what the parameters are for that window. We are just randomly traversing the reaction space.

If the average temperature is nearly the same over a "reasonably" small time interval, then one could just be slogging energy into and out of a lattice and nothing real is occurring. That is the real breakthrough of the Rossi data, if they are real. Kw's of excess heat for hours to days is not lost in experimental error... but that definitive test has not been made to the community's satisfaction as of yet.

 

[Joseph C.]

Well Nyteknik are convinced at any rate. We will just have to wait for this megawatt plant in October.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=et&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyteknik.se%2F

 

[fechter]

One thing that comes to mind when reading their description is that while producing excess energy from some new process would be a huge scientific breakthrough, it will not necessarily translate into a practical form of energy.

For example, if the eCat produces twice as much energy as you put into it, it will be hard to make practical use of it. It needs to produce several times more energy to be useful. Since ultimately it would nice to produce electricity from the heat, consider the efficiency of a typical steam turbine. Not very good. Even more high tech solutions struggle to achieve 50% efficiency. If it makes 3x more than what you put into it, it starts looking more practical, but still marginal.

It appears from the descriptions that the heater must always be running to maintain output. If it could be self-sustaining without a heater, then the input/output ratio would be much more favorable. Seems like this should be possible if it makes any excess energy.

 

[bigmoose]

A gent named Krivit at New Energy Times takes apart Rossi's data of the test last week, and his analysis shows a net energy loss. http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/10/08/e-cat-test-demonstrates-energy-loss/

For info, Rossi claims after "ignition" that he must run the heater 10 minutes out of 60 for "stability." He originally claimed a 6 to 1 energy increase. Like anything in engineering, it is the cost to produce that 6x1 multiple that will determine if it is worth pursuing, if it is real.

This posting by Krivit: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/10/06/nasa-wont-confirm-relationship-with-rossi-2/

A source, who asked to remain anonymous, told New Energy Times that, on Sept. 5 and 6, a team comprising representatives from an investment group and NASA visited Rossi’s showroom in Bologna, Italy. The team went there with an explicit agreement about test parameters and opportunities to observe and evaluate Rossi’s claims. The team members did not observe any positive results.

The Sept. 5 test was inconclusive because Rossi’s device sprang a plumbing leak. The Sept. 6 test was inconclusive because there was no outflow of steam or water.

However, when reporter Mats Lewan from Ny Teknik showed up the next day, Rossi’s device produced an outflow of steam and water. But by then, the NASA observers had gone.

If this is true, it speaks volumes. If Rossi had demonstrated over unity power production with the NASA scientific team there to analyse it. Frankly he already would have hit a world wide grand slam home run. If true, he had his chance to display his prowess before accredited US scientists, I wonder why he waited two days to run the demo successfully. It appears he knew when the NASA personnel were coming...

Interesting story. When you dig further in the archives you learn about more of NASA Langley's work in the area, led by Dr. Dennis Bushnell, LaRC's chief scientist. http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/05/06/nasa-working-on-lenr-replication-and-theory-confirmation/

Bushnell told New Energy Times that their LENR experimental approach is based on the nickel-hydrogen research of Francesco Piantelli, retired from the University of Siena, and Sergio Focardi, retired from the University of Bologna.

The theory NASA is evaluating is the “Ultra-Low-Momentum Neutron Catalyzed Theory of LENRs” developed by Allan Widom and Lewis Larsen. New Energy Times has a dedicated “portal” page for information about this theory.

NASA researcher Joseph. M. Zawodny, along with this writer, have contributed the chapter “Widom-Larsen Theory: Possible Explanation of LENRs in the forthcoming Wiley Nuclear Energy Encyclopedia.

So, I am keeping my eye on Langley and any word of Zawodny's experiment. If he proves Widom Larsen, we have entered a new day for the world. There will be Manhatten Projects for LENR, and the problems of radiation with conventional fission and the search for "hot" fusion will be over.

Interesting times to say the least...

 

[Hillhater]

Krivit at New Energy Times seems to take any and every opportunity to shoot down the Ecat project.
They may be correct, but they come across as very negative and biased in their assessment.
Certainly not the kind of independant, unbiased reviews i would expect of a reputable publication.

 

[Joseph C.]

Krivit at New Energy Times seems to take any and every opportunity to shoot down the Ecat project.
They may be correct, but they come across as very negative and biased in their assessment.
Certainly not the kind of independant, unbiased reviews i would expect of a reputable publication.

They certainly tend to agree with you on, ecatnews.com, Hillhater.

If the instrument readings that Rossi is getting are right there is still one potential chemical fuel, leaving out Uranium etc, that has the required energy density. This has been mentioned by some people commenting although they neglected to provide figures so I looked it up.

Compressed (700 bar) hydrogen has an energy density that is three times that of diesel at 123 megajoules per kilogram. But the reactor is far too small to house the hydrogen with its paltry 5.6 megajoules per litre. Therefore, I think they are talking shit.

 

[Joseph C.]

Rossi's list of scientist present at the October 6 test.

http://ecatnews.com/?p=1005

Andrea Rossi
October 10th, 2011 at 5:15 AM
Dear Vinnie Jones,
Here is the list of the Scientists who attended the test of October 6th:
Prof. Petterson Roland – Uppsala University
Prof. Campari Enrico (Univ. Bologna)
Prof. Bonetti Ennio (Univ. Bologna)
Prof. Levi Giuseppe (Univ. Bologna)
Prof. Clauzon Pierre (CNAM-CEA Paris)
Dott. Bianchini David (Univ. Bologna)
Ing. Swanson Paul D. (Space and Naval Warfare Systems- US Navy)
Prof. Focardi Sergio (Univ. Bologna)
Prof. Stremmenos Christos (Univ. Atene)
Prof. Jobson Edward (Univ. Goteborg)
Ing. Vandevalle Koen (Belgio)
Dr Enrico Billi (Fisico, Ricercatore, CINA)
This list does not include many other techicians who attended.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

There was also supposed to be someone from NASA there.

The plot has now become entangled and Rossi could be in serious trouble if what written below is true:

The technological breakthrough of LENR (or CANR) is no longer speculation. It is a fact that will eventually change the world’s energy problems and its sociopolitical divides through cheap, clean and green energy. The world needs LENR as a new energy source. Although change will not happen over-night, LENR will help reduce CO2 emissions, lower the cost of energy, and provide longevity to our planet’s energy needs.

Defkalion sees its role with responsibility and asks the community at large to continue its support.

Defkalion has:
• Enhanced technology and engineering on Rossi’s invention or similar inventions
• Prepared business models for international expansion
• Established a strong network of global contacts
• Prepared legislative and certification procedures
• Ensured national, regional and international network in politics and business
• Prepared global financing

Defkalion has worked in close partnership with Andrea Rossi for a very long time to prepare a commercially viable and industrially applicable product using his invention. Defkalion invested a lot of money to evolve Rossi’s E-Cat lab prototype into its Hyperion product. Defkalion is now at the stage where its industrial prototype is ready for production.

Defkalion has held direct business discussions with 62 interested companies who visited our offices in Greece and witnessed our work. Small industry and large energy players internationally were all impressed by our progress in technology and engineering. More are still coming. Despite this phenomenal progress, Defkalion never made promises.
Our aim has always been to inform and demonstrate to public our progress when the final product is ready for use, thereby avoiding any speculations.

Today, Hyperion engineering has completed version 7. We were surprised to see our old designs used in public testing. We were confused why our old designs were implemented wrongly, as well as witnessing insufficient use of instruments and testing protocols. We also identified confidential (yet shown in public) special instruments designed in collaboration with Rossi and prepared by Defkalion. These actions have already paved the way for more negative criticism (unworthy) against the inventor, which do not give credibility to his important work.

The plethora of positive and negative comments is not helpful, as pointed out recently on the Vortex mail archive:
(http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es … 52357.html).

Defkalion fully supports and endorses this technology. Our mission is to introduce this technology on a global scale, responsibly. To date, we have self-financed all R&D and business development phases without asking for a single penny from anyone (private or public). We will soon be ready to announce the results of our extensive R&D with Hyperion final products.

Athens, October 10th, 2011
Defkalion GT S.A.

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=285

 

[Joseph C.]

Apparently, the one mega-watt test/unveiling is scheduled for October 28.

 

[liveforphysics]

If true, he had his chance to display his prowess before accredited US scientists, I wonder why he waited two days to run the demo successfully. It appears he knew when the NASA personnel were coming...

Because he is a con-man with nothing.

Doesn't work for an educated audience is one of the classic con signs.

 

[Dee Jay]

any news?