Thoughts on E-bikes as true light weight daily transport

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

I know a number of you already commute with your bikes. However, (I am just thinking out loud here) what are your thoughts regarding the use of E-bikes as a car replacement for more people (more than we enthusiasts)?

Matt

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I think you could do that right now with the average bicycle commuter as long as you can break the "it's cheating" barrier. The average person doesn't want to leave the comfort and security of their car.

I think that a lot of "week-end warriors" will be interested too, like the people who take their trike to a bike path to ride, you could convince them that now they can ride to the bike path via the electric assist.

Easier to convince people who live in places like Hawaii or So Cal where it's pretty nice weather most of the time. :wink:

 

[liveforphysics]

For summer, I use 2-wheeled vehicles for about ~90% of my normal transportation needs. For a cold rainy winter, maybe 10% of my transportation needs.

It would be pretty tough to transport engines, trannys, stacks of nitrous bottles to get filled, etc. BUT! Justin at ebikes.ca actually does use an ebike for jobs like that. He has a trailer he pulls behind his bike that is strong enough to hold many hundreds of pounds, and he uses ebike or his two feet for 100% of his transportation needs.

 

[richmpdx]

A really important topic. I commute by ebike most of the year in Portland, OR. I use a car when it gets below freezing, as ice, hills and bikes are just not a good combination for me. A bike is an incredibly efficient device for transporting a person. Despite that, much of the US population just doesn't consider any bike with or without electric assist for regular transportation. Cars are convenient, offer protection from the weather and depending on how operated, arguably safer/mile. There likely is a relatively small group that simply needs to learn more about ebikes and they would give ebikes a chance. But I suspect for the bulk of the population it will take a petroleum crisis so that gasoline is either drastically rationed or the cost hurts so much that they have to consider alternatives to the car.

Rich

 

[MattyCiii]

I'm a bicycle commuter - not e-bike (my first e-bike build coming soon)
My commute is 11 miles by bike to Providence RI, then a train ride to Boston. I won't leave my standard bike behind to be stolen or vandalized - I'm sure that will be doubly so once I go electric. But "bikes" are not allowed on the commuter train during rush hour - only "folding bikes" (the rules say nothing about "folding electric assist bikes"). So my one commuter bike requirement: it must be a folding bike.

I realize I'm a fringe case. But folding comes in handy beyond my strange commute. I've folded my bike and taken it into restaurants... I've taken it on busses and in cabs (important when bike parts fail, weather gets extreme or operator is too tired). I've taken it to NYC on AMTRAK, then used it as my sole transit around the city. So for me, folding is a requirement. For others folding might be a "nice to have", and others still will steer away because of the compromises inherent to a folder.

Other thoughts: Reliability is very important, and weight - to a point - is not.

FWIW, I ride a full suspension folder, a Dahon Jetstream P8 http://us.dahon.com/bikes/1637/jetstream-p8, but with a NuVinci N360 and Surly Singulator to provide gears (trading higher weight for better percieved reliability).

My dream bike would be a full suspension folder where a motor, reduction, clutch and controller fit in the square grey box I photo-chopped into the picture, giving me a bit of a boost when needed, but with weight centralized and all those extra wires, gears and clutch enclosed (important to effective folding). Batteries likely go into back pack.

 

[recumpence]

I own the exact same Dahon. I have considered adding an RC drive to it.

So many project ideas, so little time.

Matt

 

[fechter]

Being able to park somewhere without worring about your multi $k bike getting stolen or vandalized is one of the major barriers to widespread acceptance. Weather and perceived safety are also important factors.
Bikes make the most sense in an urban environment where distances are not too great.

The folding bike (or scooter for that matter) can potentially go with you everywhere, so minimizes the risk of getting stolen. Might be a pain pushing one around in the grocery store though.

If things were designed somewhat 'armored' so you could use a hefty lock and not worry much about things getting stolen, it would help a lot.

 

[Kepler]

I regularly combine both car and ebike for my trip to work. I live in the outer suburbs of Melbourne Australia and need get into the city a few days a week to work on various engineering projects. Driving all the way there in peak hour is a nightmare not to mention parking difficulties and a typical $60 parking fee.

What I do now is drive into one of the inter suburbs thats about 5km out of town and park in secure parking for a few dollars a day. I then rip the folder out of the boot (trunk ) complete with with eboost and head off into town.

This way I avoid the worst of the peak hour traffic, pay very little for parking, get some fresh air and a bit of exercise and actually get to my jobs earlier. I then just lock the bike up against a pole, unclip the drive, chuck it in my backpack with my laptop, and i'm off.

Now rather then dreading the peak hour drive into the city, I look forward to the quick zoom into the city. Great way to get to work thats for sure.

 

[deVries]

I regularly combine both car and ebike for my trip to work. I live in the outer suburbs of Melbourne Australia and need get into the city a few days a week to work on various engineering projects. Driving all the way there in peak hour is a nightmare not to mention parking difficulties and a typical $60 parking fee.

What I do now is drive into one of the inter suburbs thats about 5km out of town and park in secure parking for a few dollars a day. I then rip the folder out of the boot (trunk ) complete with with eboost and head off into town.

This way I avoid the worst of the peak hour traffic, pay very little for parking, get some fresh air and a bit of exercise and actually get to my jobs earlier. I then just lock the bike up against a pole, unclip the drive, chuck it in my backpack with my laptop, and i'm off.

Now rather then dreading the peak hour drive into the city, I look forward to the quick zoom into the city. Great way to get to work thats for sure.

EDIT: ADD SEXY BEAUTIFUL BLOND* + Lycra cyclewear doing your web-ads & youtube videos + your sales pitch above + watch her dress from Lycra into more sexy clothing on top of that... as she puts the eDrive in her purse/pack, and... :wink:

I think it would do A LOT for BOOSTING eBike sales, period. :lol: :lol: :lol: 8) 8) 8)

*or add your preferred hair color

 

[MattyCiii]

... Might be a pain pushing one around in the grocery store though.

I'm reminded of this awesome cargo bike built from a folding bike: http://fixedgeargallery.com/contest/grocerygetter/DavidMahan.htm Lock the rear up outside the market, push the front half. Absolutely brilliant!

With electric assist to the BB or rear wheel, it appears the cargo bike can convert back to a normal folding bike with ease. Is it easier to just have a trailer you can hook up as needed? I don't know.

 

[Kepler]

I regularly combine both car and ebike for my trip to work. I live in the outer suburbs of Melbourne Australia and need get into the city a few days a week to work on various engineering projects. Driving all the way there in peak hour is a nightmare not to mention parking difficulties and a typical $60 parking fee.

What I do now is drive into one of the inter suburbs thats about 5km out of town and park in secure parking for a few dollars a day. I then rip the folder out of the boot (trunk ) complete with with eboost and head off into town.

This way I avoid the worst of the peak hour traffic, pay very little for parking, get some fresh air and a bit of exercise and actually get to my jobs earlier. I then just lock the bike up against a pole, unclip the drive, chuck it in my backpack with my laptop, and i'm off.

Now rather then dreading the peak hour drive into the city, I look forward to the quick zoom into the city. Great way to get to work thats for sure.

EDIT: ADD SEXY BEAUTIFUL BLOND* + Lycra cyclewear doing your web-ads & youtube videos + your sales pitch above + watch her dress from Lycra into more sexy clothing on top of that... as she puts the eDrive in her purse/pack, and... :wink:

I think it would do A LOT for BOOSTING eBike sales, period. :lol: :lol: :lol: 8) 8) 8)

*or add your preferred hair color

See, now you are thinking

 

[deardancer3]

Various thoughts on this topic;

I think if "Car Share" and Car Co-op were more widely available, then being free of car ownership would be more wide spread.

One 55 year old couple I know have been car free for about 5 years in Seattle and San Diego; but due to a sick elderly parent about 75 miles away, they feel the need to have instant car transportation for doing their share of emergency care responsibilities.

I think that many people could do this in the fair weather months though. A large family can get by with just one car if people think it through; but not if Jimbo has soccer practice 25 miles a way, the the best piano teacher has to be used 20 miles the other way for Peggy Sue, Daddy commutes 40 miles to work each way, and people still think its cool to go shoppping 3 times a week to the furthest "in" shoppping centers.

But start appreciating all things within 5-8 miles and watch the miles, money and minutes be returned to you with reduced stress. If things truely arent good enough, support efforts for local improvements or competition.

Things get difficult with these short days and lots of travel after dark, cold/cool weather, cars being less used to seeing bikes, having to be more cautious, going slower, managing gloves and clothes, trips taking longer. but once you get used to the drill its not tooo bad. At the local pub they thought I had lost my license, why would anyone ride a bike at 48F to a bar 2 miles away? (my thinking, why would anyone drive a car to a pub at only 48F only 2 miles away?) My favorite micropub is 7 miles away.. do-able on my ebike in the warmer months, but this one will do in the cool weather.

We will have to do this anyway when gas goes back to $5/Gal, might as well start now?

Going to one car would not be too hard; but car free would be pretty tough for todays family with teenagers.

d

 

[ev_nred]

just my 2 cents ebikes would be good for would be first time car owners as gas prices go higher and higher.

 

[jag]

I think you could do that right now with the average bicycle commuter as long as you can break the "it's cheating" barrier. The average person doesn't want to leave the comfort and security of their car.

This is bad news, because if people who are already bike commuters is the only significant pool of potential eBikers it is limited to 1-2% of the population in North America.

However, I see the same thing: Friends who already bike commute are curious about my ebike and that I use it for almost all my transportation. (Took the xmas tree home in the kids trailer. Can do my shopping with just panniers etc)

But people who don't bike commute can simply not get it into their head that transportation without a car is an alternative. This seems to go for people who are otherwise fairly health concious (but always drive their car to the trailhead). So the biggest problem might be to get people out of their cars.

This mean busting some common perceptions/myths:
Speed: For many/most trips taken the car is no faster than alternatives such as eBikes, bike, walking, public transport etc if one considers end-to-end time including parking.
Cost: If the cost of each drive was itemized like on a long distance phone bill people might re-think. Similarly, pay-per-driving-day registration and insurance options and other ways of making the cost incremental would help people gradually shifting away from the automatic "take the car" mentality. Think of coin showers. Even though it is just quarters, the physical act of having to feed money into the machine tend to make people save. If we can get the same mental attitude to car usage (and other resource waste) we would be a long way ahead.
Safety: Despite the billions of dollars that have gone into making both cars and the road network safe, driving is not particularly safe compared to other means of transportation. However, the average person is mislead to think the car is safe, and the bike unsafe. This was really the main message in the "Copenhagenize" videos. Unfortunately the two ES threads on those topics derailed into a helmet vs no-helmet arguing, which is a comparably minor issue.
Comfort: This is a subjective issue, and perhaps the most difficult to overcome. Of course rain and snow are not fun, but even here in Edmonton, Canada more than half the year is pleasant enough. Last spring I had to commute down town during rush hour. The first few times I showed up with a bike helmet the building attendants and secre4taries in the office tower would assume I was lost and in the wrong place. After a while I was accepted and greeted with my helmet. I described how I biked in half the time of the car commuters (using the largely empty bus/bike lanes and bike paths), and how on nice sunny days I liked to take a detour ride to the river valley on my way home. However, while the car people after some time came to accept that eBiking was a good choice for me, it never occurred to them to consider it for themselves. When I think about taking the car and often getting stuck or frustrated in traffic I feel disgust. When I think about the bike i feel joy. There seems to be no way to transfer the subjective experience to people who don;t bike the way one can argue numbers for speed, cost and safety.

 

[Dingo2024]

that was my plan when I started my build a few months ago (to use the bike as a car replacement)........and it was going really well until the weather changed here in the UK
However it has been the most fun I have had in a while....when I was using it daily during the summer.
If I could get it truelly weather proof then I would be using it atm

the other major issue I have (as well as others in the UK and probaly the rest of the world) is the legislation regarding max speed (or lack of it) this makes the whole concept of commuting a 'little' dangerous.

I ride at a speed to keep with the traffic flow however if more ebikes appeared in my area then I am sure the cops would have something to say :wink:

Ian

 

[oldpiper]

(moved to E-Bikes ... will they ever REALLY get it?! because it fits that one better. Got confused with two topics so closely aligned...)

Cameron

 

[mabman]

You really don't have to look any further than China and the Eu, both of whom are fully adapting to the use of e bikes, to see that it is at least possible for them to be a viable form of single person/single purpose transport. The problem is the same old same old here in the states, we are too in love with the right to keep and bear automobiles. The other countries mentioned also have done much more with public transport and set up their systems so that the bulk of the population don't have to travel very great distances to get to their place of employment and areas of commerce. And of course their cost of fuel has been higher than ours for years which has led them to take measures to conserve. We are way behind in regards to this.

There are predictions that the price of fuel is due to bubble again in the near future. This typically send folks looking for alternative methods of transport and bicycles themselves historically get a jump in sales during these times. A perfect time for e bikes, but will there be any available that will really give a good value to the consumer backed by a dealer network to provide both sales and service for a price that the many that it will take to make a difference can afford?

I am not sure what the average cost of an e bike in China is but I doubt it is very high and the quality is suspect, at least the ones that we see for sale here anyway for the most part. They have the advantage of low cost to manufacture and if they are used there no shipping charges apply also. The EU EPAC class bikes are generally of a higher quality and the price reflects that as most that I see are $2,000usd and up. But I don't see motor assist bikes being popular here in the US unless they are around $1,000 and backed by some sort of service/parts network. The best case scenario here being bike shops that will step up to stock parts and train technicians.

Also I agree with old piper that the youth market is ripe for e bikes. But why not take it down a tier to the high school level? Get the kids that are just getting to be mobile an option to be mobile at a much lower price than that of having a car. Break the mould. Plus a good many of today's youth could benefit from having a bit of exercise and fresh air also. Let them use e bikes for getting to and from their own engagements, or at least as many as reasonably possible, and relieve the pressure on the parents to have to do so with their car. Then when they go on to college or the workforce they can take their bikes with them and hopefully continue to find them useful for the rest of their lives?

 

[SoSauty]

Zen and the Art of E-biking. Once took a "backpacking PE class" that was the best taught course of my life. Essential basics of safety, weather, map reading, permit requirements, meal preparation, equipement needed, ect. . was surveyed in a 1 semester hr course, short yet consise info. w/ 3 day trek into the wild. Believe I could infiltrate the local bike riding club, large churches, communtity college adult enrichment classes, so on and get an e-bike course going.

Simplified understanding of which kit builds are cheap and reliabile as well as addressing the flat tire issue,
Defensive driving/riding, local police could visit and give bike safety presentation,
Battery selection, chemistries, safety, batt carriers, lockable, . . .,
What a controller does and selection,
Security issues, type locks, alarms,
Maintanence essentials, trueing spokes, lubing, inspecting
Green debate, the athletic biking purists vs e-bike carbon footprint vs hybrid cars (Prius).
Hands on building/converting their bikes to e-bikes.
Half day bike trek.

To propagate e-biking, lessen the defenses of the young 'biking purist' and pull in the mature (aging) yet still active crowd. Teaching a class is alot of work. If you really want to torture yourself, find a large RV park, put a demo folder e-bike in their store, and set up business intalling hub motors on the rich RV bikes of Grandpa's who want to keep their pre-teen grandkids entertained :wink:

 

[1clue]

This thread is about me. I am your market.

FWIW, if somebody has a 5 mile commute they should just stick to pedals Or 10 even. I'm a 45 year old fat guy, and I've been riding a bike 19 miles each way occasionally to work. I've been a desk jockey for the past 15 years or more, I work too long and need to get some exercise or turn into a lump of jelly.

Frankly for me 19 miles each way is an awful long ride, especially the way back where the last mile is up a hill. The first day is usually fine, but if I do two rides in 3 days I cramp up something fierce, even with all sorts of stretching. 10 miles, I could ride that every day and do just fine, even being the desk jockey I am. On the other hand, if it were 10 miles and I rode it every day of the summer I would be able to do the 19 mile trip by now and work no harder at it.

I take my recumbent right through the door when I get to work, wheel it over to my section of the cube farm and park it right there in sight. There's a spot not too far from the cube where it's both out of sight of the main traffic and out of the way for pretty much everybody. There's a gym in the basement and I have a membership. There are some coat closets that are empty in the summer too, if you can't park it near the cube.

Getting to work is no big deal, you just gotta leave early enough. That for me is the biggest problem. But you also need to consider your entire commute time. If you're relying on your own muscles for power and can't smell bad at the office, then you need a shower when you get there. So I start the timer when I roll out of bed and stop it when I sit in my chair at the office, because the shower comes after the commute on the bike. In that case, my bike commute is only twice as long as the car commute. For a 19 mile trip for a 45-year-old fat guy. Seriously.

So enter with the electrics. I think an e-bike is kind of like a recumbent with respect to public opinion. It's a bit geeky, even if you're one of the guys putting 14 kW on it. They're expensive and nobody else has one, so that makes you different and the average guy/girl in my opinion wants to be just like everyone else except maybe a bit better looking and richer.

Guys like Matt Shumaker make it a bit more cool with the hot rod bikes, but realistically I think we need bikes that are designed from the ground up as a commuter electric. The points made earlier about folding bikes are important. It's not a "purist" feature, but it's a practical one.

IMO if I had a folder I could fold it up, wheel it in, slip it under the desk, cover it with a towel that's the same color as the carpet and nobody would even notice it. If I could have electrics with enough range to get all the way to work I could arrive cool, clean and smelling more or less like I did when I left home, then work the pedals on the way back.

The "entrance fee" or "normal" people needs to be low enough that people who are interested could actually get something that will fit the bill without bleeding for it. Not a folder, but something that they can get in and back for not too much money. But we're not talking about high school kids. They have no money at all, nor do college kids. You need somebody who has been making money for awhile and has some spending power Face it, you're spending a four digit number of US dollars to get anything decent.

As far as convincing people to do it, I think it takes a guy like me to ride 20 miles consistently and maybe get into shape after awhile, which means using sweat power every now and then. The e-bike would be the difference between riding in a dozen times a year or riding in every day of the summer. With a motorcycle I ride rain or shine, just the ice and cold makes me put it away.

 

[etard]

So many good points here, great discussion guys!

I think it would be great if more high school kids would get into the ebike hot rodding scene. I imagine being macho cool and just pure not knowing there are other options besides the crappy Chinese ebikes sold on eBay and in walmart contributes to the vacuum in this segment on this forum. I don't necessarily think it's a money thing... Have you seen the $$$ they spend on thier damn Hondas to make em sound like tin cans!!?? I also think it's the ignorance of High School shop teachers that contribute in that they don't know the first thing about electronics. I know one locally, great guy, I tried to convince him to get an electric go cart build going, but in the end his lack of electronics knowledge steered him away from pursueing that project.

I also think security plays a big part in the commuting, what do you do with it once you get to work? You can't just leave a $2000 bike or ebike parked unattended for 8 hours straight. I remember seeing a video of a storage facility in Korea that is like a secure parking locker, you would have to get the city to pay for a majority of the costs cuz nobody could afford the price but it could be beneficial to the city in some ways. I could park my bike inside my work facility no problem, plug in, whatever. I suspect most could do this if they sequestered a special spot out of traffic and if the bike didn't look like it had a bomb attached to it.

The most important reason people don't commute on bike or ebike is the comfort and exposure to the elements. Let's face it, we are soft. Most of us have never had to sit in a fox hole during a rain storm, or hiked in the snow, we don't like to be cold, hot, or wet. Even the slightest hint of BO will send people into self conscious mode, " do I stink, does she smell me?" I have to admit, I am in this category, I like to listen to some music on my way to work, drink my coffee and arrive dry and warm. Although, I do work 10 hour days at a physical job starting at 6 am so getting up at 4:30 in the morning just seems too hard, but I am going to try it for a week after Christmas break. Maybe I'll make it my New Years revolution, would anybody like to join me?!

 

[AussieJester]

So many good points here, great discussion guys! I think it would be great if more high school kids would get into the ebike hot rodding scene.

Hrmz... ~16 year olds on high powered souped up e-bikes...what could possibly go wrong
I think a BiG increase in school age riders would soon see closer scrutiny by the powers that
be, due to the certain dangerous riding and increased accidents on e-biikes that would
almost definately follow. Is this the sort of publicity this hobby needs? I am fine with it being
low key, why the big push to make it more popular? Longer it stays a minority thing the longer
we get to 'fly under the radar'

I dont own or drive a car anymore (not by choice) I do get lifts (alot) with mates
and use Taxis (i have 75% discount vouchers) i do use an e-bike for local trips (under 20km)
but would never entertain the thought of totally replacing access to a car for an e-bike.

KiM

 

[etard]

I completely agree with you AJ, I don't see why people want to make it more popular, could only lead to regulation and more scrutiny by the popo. It will eventually happen, but currently we are such an obscure group that the lawmakers should overlook us for years to come. However, it would be cool to have more youthful daredevils on the forum that are enthusiastic about the hobby, really metallover seems to be the only one I can think of off hand.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I completely agree with you AJ, I don't see why people want to make it more popular, could only lead to regulation and more scrutiny by the popo. It will eventually happen, but currently we are such an obscure group that the lawmakers should overlook us for years to come. However, it would be cool to have more youthful daredevils on the forum that are enthusiastic about the hobby, really metallover seems to be the only one I can think of off hand.

Hey! I'm in my second childhood, doesn't that count?!

It is true, the more known we are the more the gov'mt will see fit to regulate, but in Oregon you can drive a car at 16, so I don't know that wild riding by 16yr olds will really have an impact, besides I doubt there will be many 16yr olds with a 50hp Recumpence special or a Dr. Bass Monster, most will only be able to afford SLA and the "cool kids" will have Lithium because their parents bought it for them. :wink:

Most of the gas bike riders I see around are kids and they haven't spoiled it for other gassers at least in my town, and they blast through town at 35MPH (25 MPH speed zone) or so they say their bike goes 35mph .. :wink: I suspect that's just what the kit promised, most of these kids don't have speedos.

The more we get kids interested the more we have adults becoming aware of the E-Bikes, the more riders we get in the end. I don't think we have to worry about keeping the "djinni" in the bottle, I think it's already out IMHO, I mean they are selling E-Bikes at WALMART! So now even Jethro, Jed and Grandma knows about these here new fangled 'lectric horses! :lol: :lol:

 

[MattyCiii]

...I am going to try it for a week after Christmas break. Maybe I'll make it my New Years revolution, would anybody like to join me?!

I'm there with you in spirit, Etard. Although I'm more like 1clue - I work a desk job not a physical one - I've recently started bicycle commuting for real. I've been an occasional bike commuter for a few years, this year I'm doing it through the winter and as often as possible.

Observations:
1. The more I ride, the more I hate driving.
2. The cost of entry is not low. I've had a good (~$800) bike for years, but this year I bought a spare, about $1000 in clothes (full face motorcycle helmet and armored jacket included, which I'll use on the motorcycle, but they're principally for the bicycle).
3. There's a shower at work, but the train does not arrive early enough for me to use it. I use a towel, Right Guard, frequent changes of clothes, and an extra couple feet of "personal space" to survive the high hygiene U.S. corporate environment.
4. Like 1clue, I'm lucky enough that nobody stops me bringing my bike into the office. There is a bike rack outside, but theft and vandalism are a concern. In a nod of respect to the building manager and cleaning crew, I actually carry the bike to its spot vice wheeling it. I don't want to push my luck.
5. I've had to "break in" the train crews along my commute. Highlighted (and now sweat stained) print-outs from their web site noting that folding bikes are allowed. I nearly had to wear those print-outs on a chain around my neck in the early days. Now (with help from some other folding-bile commuters) I don't even get a second glance.

 

[1clue]

Electronic bikes have been around for decades. Over 30 years ago one of my neighbors put a starter motor on a minibike along with a car battery. I know there have been electric scooters for a long time. This stuff isn't even slightly new.

What's new is that they actually outperform dino-fueled options. And there are people who are taking it to outrageous extremes.

The biggest problem with general acceptance, especially when you start looking at a hot rod, is that to get into it you could have bought a really nice used motorcycle just for the cost of the propulsion system on the e-bike. I was on the verge of getting one of Matt's kits when I found the motorcycle I was dreaming about since 1987 (Yamaha 700 Fazer) when it came out. Face it, when you compare "bang for the buck" an e-bike can't compare with a motorcycle or a car. A car is ultimately more versatile. A motorcycle is more versatile. Your girlfriend/wife is NOT going to get on an e-bike with you to go on a date.

What that means is that the potential buyer/builder needs to have a specific use in mind, like commuting. They need to plan it all out, and then be willing to spend enough to get a used car just to get a souped-up bicycle with a motor on it.

Look at the resistance people have to spending $2k on a bicycle. Lots of people need to go through all sorts of moral self-examination to "justify" that sort of waste. My brother-in-law spent a half hour trying to convince me that it was OK to spend $1500 on his bike, when he already knew I had spent twice that on my recumbent. I'm just guessing, but I suspect these high powered e-bikes are looking more like $5k or more. My 120+ mph motorcycle cost $1.5k, and its got much more appeal to most people.

It was a tough reach for me, but in the end I decided that while the e-bike might be more efficient as a commuter the motorcycle was more practical. That's not to say I won't get to the e-bike some day, I still want one bad and Matt lives just down the road from me.

It all comes down to "What do I get for my money?"