parabellum
1 MW
Welcome speed_demon.
It is good to have members understanding what abstract formulation of physics is.
It is good to have members understanding what abstract formulation of physics is.
Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases
- Thread starter Doctorbass
- Start date
liveforphysics
100 TW
speed_demon said:
Unfortunately, I think any metallic lithium anode is a non-starter due to the highest points being the paths with the least resistance to attracting more ions, as well as the strongest field strength to attract them with. The metal growth pattern is also naturally a spikey crystal formation.
A metal like Mg is not only a ++ carrier rather than a + carrier like Li (this means for each Mg ion that swaps sides you get 2 electrons available for your load rather than 1). It also is not a spikey crystal when it plates, it's smooth flat sheets which is awesome for not piercing super thin modern low ion-motion-restricting separators.
The problem is solvents.
The problem with most all the cool new battery tech is solvents. People keep talking about various new higher energy chemistries (and I am also guilty of this), but if we just had the right solvents that didn't decompose at higher voltages yet were still chemically compatible and low-resistance ion carriers, we could double or triple energy density in lithium battery tech tomorrow.
Solvent stability at higher voltages is currently a massive gating issue for at least a dozen or more amazing energy density increasing tricks for batteries. However, it seems all the research goes into finding more neat tricks that don't work without a better solvent rather than working on solvents to make the huge amount of pre-existing tricks capable of functioning.
Solvent stability is also perhaps the single largest factor on cycle-life and calendar life of automotive grade cells as well. Laptop and phone stuff is fine if it lasts 2-3years and maybe 500 shallow cycles or whatever, so it doesn't matter too much. Automotive grade things are expected to function very well still after a decade or more. This is simply impossible to do with poor quality solvents regardless of whatever the chemistry happens to be (LiFePO4 or LiCoO2 or whatever).
It's funny, when I started getting into batteries, I was impressed and interested in understanding the different chemistries themselves. At this point, the chemistry itself seems like the very least important detail in the quality and performance of a battery. The things you care about if you want it to last are things you will never see on a datasheet, like the purity of the powders to make up the slurry coatings, the solvent blend and purity, the environmental controls of the room the layers are stamped out of the mile long rolls of copper and aluminum foil with after going through the coater and rollers, the method/ handling/ and designed-in overhang of the separator, the ultrasonic weld quality between the foils to the tab (ask anyone who bought the warranty-replaced Fiskar modules from Victpower etc how important this one is), the sealing and seam-foil-edge protection of the fold/sealing pattern and quality and uniform thickness of the thermal-adhesives used for this, and lastly the quality of the formation charge process.
Any of those above criteria are more important in a cell than the chemistry for deciding how safe and for how long a cell is going to work for you.
However, unlike chemistry and some complete bull-shit cycle-life graph, they aren't things inter-wib-arm-chair experts can easily check and compare in 2mins by downloading a datasheet, so they seldom if ever even get mentioned.
Also, in-case there is anyone on ES who hasn't learned this yet, the mfg datasheet for a cell is created to be a home to contain various lies or impractical non-real-life-representative test results that will have little to no bearing on your applications needs. (with the possible exception being if you're designing laptop packs or something that is going to never see a peak discharge of even 1/3C rate)
jonescg
100 MW
Yeah, QC is the single biggest issue for today's battery chemistries. Get that right (at a cost) and your cells will sell!
maydaverave
10 kW
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2009
- Messages
- 542
I got some dry film graphite, neat stuff. I was wondering if I could get some usable graphene properties out of it. You can paint metal with it. Scratch the hell out of it, dip it in water and it wont rust. even though it scratches fairly easily it seems to leave a thin invisible layer. Graphene?
speed_demon
1 mW
I appreciate the response LFP, if you don't mind the abbreviation.liveforphysics said:
My question was concerning where you felt the Lithium battery technology as a whole is at in terms of maturation along the product life cycle, and what you feel is on the horizon for consumer battery tech beyond lithium. I apologize for not making my initial statement more concise.
hillyterrain
100 W
A graphene based ultracapacitor with a power density of 200W/cm-3 manufactured using of the off the shelf DVD writers, now being scaled to industrial applications, will this be useful for ebike applications? Does it sound to good to be true?
http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/science/more-good-news-on-those-carbon-supercapacitors.html
http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/science/more-good-news-on-those-carbon-supercapacitors.html
liveforphysics said:
That probably explains Boeing's problem
Dauntless
100 TW
http://www.fastcodesign.com/1671917/watch-2-scientists-accidentally-discover-a-world-changing-super-material
Here's the video. But like so many things, it's like Bill Gates talking about all the great things computers may do someday as he launched yet another Microsoft product that didn't do any of that. Basically this is 'Oh, yes, we have this great new material that someday we might be able to do----SOMETHING----with it.'
Imagine Henry Ford launching the Model T in 1908: "Someday a Ford will be able to go 12 miles on a single gallon of gasoline. At speeds of 35 miles per out and more. And if you buy one of these cars, one day it'll be worth 50 to 100 times what you pay for it today." It would be more than 20 years before you would see a Ford do any of that. Oh, a 20 year old Model T was never worth much of anything, it would be farther into the future for that.
Here's the video. But like so many things, it's like Bill Gates talking about all the great things computers may do someday as he launched yet another Microsoft product that didn't do any of that. Basically this is 'Oh, yes, we have this great new material that someday we might be able to do----SOMETHING----with it.'
Imagine Henry Ford launching the Model T in 1908: "Someday a Ford will be able to go 12 miles on a single gallon of gasoline. At speeds of 35 miles per out and more. And if you buy one of these cars, one day it'll be worth 50 to 100 times what you pay for it today." It would be more than 20 years before you would see a Ford do any of that. Oh, a 20 year old Model T was never worth much of anything, it would be farther into the future for that.
liveforphysics
100 TW
speed_demon said:
I think lithium ion batteries (and other ion batteries as some other species may make more sense as solvent and separator tech improves) are in the infancy stages still with respect to the potential energy storage as well as future intrinsic safety systems that are slowly being implemented.
At least a 4x energy density increase, and the cycle life to simply make battery aging/decay a thing of the past, and make real actually functional intrinsic cell protection systems so commonly designed into cells that incidents with them become a thing we only can remember about, because they just stop happening.
From my experience, not one of those things is easy though. They won't do themselves and it won't be soon that they achieve that level of maturity in a product/design.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
But here's an article with more info (BTW it's a big leap to interpret "use oxygen in the air" as a requirement to carry oxygen):
http://www.toyota-global.com/innova...logy/next_generation_secondary_batteries.html
Also:
http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v10/n9/fig_tab/nmat3066_F4.html
Normally with these announcements its something like 3 or 4 times more powerful in 3 to 4 years. So I wouldn't get too excited about plans for something that might happen in 2020, posted as part of an announcement of "research collaboration". Particularly when the announcement states:
But here's an article with more info (BTW it's a big leap to interpret "use oxygen in the air" as a requirement to carry oxygen):
http://www.toyota-global.com/innova...logy/next_generation_secondary_batteries.html
Beginning in 2010, we plan to accelerate our research through collaboration with production technologies.
We are currently conducting research and development on two types of batteries, all-solid-state (shown in Figure 2) batteries and lithium-air batteries (shown in Figure 3).
By modifying liquefied electrolytes into solid electrolytes, it allows each cells to connect without the need for individual casing, which results in creating a more compact packaging.
Figure2 All-solid-state battery
Directly connected cells enables smaller package
Figure 3 shows the example of lithium-air batteries which use oxygen in the air as the cathode active material. Therefore, it achieves weight savings and better energy density by changing negative-electrode material into metallic lithium from black lead than solid batteries.
Figure3 Lithium-air battery
Using oxygen in the air for the cathode and lithium metal for the anode allows for a smaller and lighter package.
Through our success in reducing solid surface resistance, we are one step closer to achieving revolutionary developments in battery performance.
Through our analysis of liquid electrolytes and its influences, we have aimed our focus to clarify the reaction mechanisms of lithium-air batteries.
Also:
http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v10/n9/fig_tab/nmat3066_F4.html
Charge–discharge curves of an all-solid-state battery consisting of a LiCoO2 cathode, a Li10GeP2S12 electrolyte and an In metal anode.
The current density is 14 mA g−1. The battery has a discharge capacity of over 120 mA h g−1 and an excellent discharge efficiency of about 100% after the second cycle, demonstrating that Li10GeP2S12 is suitable as an electrolyte for all-solid-state batteries.
It's going to take a lot of 120mAh cells to run a Rav4-EV. 
Just kidding... I hope they hurry. These things seem to take forever before we can get our hands on them.
Advancements do keep coming along though. It wasn't that long ago lead-acid was king. Some that made it to the market didn't actually work well either. Remember Ni-Zn batteries?
Just kidding... I hope they hurry. These things seem to take forever before we can get our hands on them.
Advancements do keep coming along though. It wasn't that long ago lead-acid was king. Some that made it to the market didn't actually work well either. Remember Ni-Zn batteries?
Holocene
100 W
We need powered roads and wireless power transfer. Then we can stop dragging around the weight of the batteries and chargers.o00scorpion00o said:
jonescg
100 MW
Holocene said:
You mean like trains and trolley buses? Already got them
docnjoj
1 GW
Hey Mitch
What happens on the 9th cycle? I'm not sure I can handle an batt that only does eight
otherDoc
What happens on the 9th cycle? I'm not sure I can handle an batt that only does eight
otherDoc
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi Doc,
?
docnjoj said:Hey Mitch
What happens on the 9th cycle? I'm not sure I can handle an batt that only does eight
otherDoc
So you think I should have said "I wouldn't worry about" instead of "I wouldn't get too excited about"MitchJi said:
?
liveforphysics
100 TW
There are many amazing dime sized lab prototype batteries in the world.
Many of them were hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars in bizarre nano-structured materials or grown in non-scalable processes that will never reach production for feasibility issues.
They make some killer graphs for white papers, and seldom have much more impact on the world of EV batteries than some neat graphs.
It unfortunately takes getting a lot of pieces together from a big picture before its powering our bicycles. Just making a battery that rocks a lab bench when dime sized is maybe 15% of the work in getting something done that will ever impact our bicycles.
Many of them were hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars in bizarre nano-structured materials or grown in non-scalable processes that will never reach production for feasibility issues.
They make some killer graphs for white papers, and seldom have much more impact on the world of EV batteries than some neat graphs.
It unfortunately takes getting a lot of pieces together from a big picture before its powering our bicycles. Just making a battery that rocks a lab bench when dime sized is maybe 15% of the work in getting something done that will ever impact our bicycles.
Science Faction
1 W
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 59
Hi all
Here is hoping for 3 x energy density and rapid charging.
Looks like nano tech is going to be the evolutionary path for batteries by making cheaper materials more functional.
In this case the anode is made of silicon nano spheres with etched tunnels to increase surface area.
http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/46778/cheap-strong-lithium-ion-battery-developed-at-usc/
Only 200 cycles at the moment.
However their initial testing with silicon nano wires while more difficult to produce on mass was getting 2000 charge cycle life.
Here is hoping for 3 x energy density and rapid charging.
Looks like nano tech is going to be the evolutionary path for batteries by making cheaper materials more functional.
In this case the anode is made of silicon nano spheres with etched tunnels to increase surface area.
http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/46778/cheap-strong-lithium-ion-battery-developed-at-usc/
Only 200 cycles at the moment.
However their initial testing with silicon nano wires while more difficult to produce on mass was getting 2000 charge cycle life.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
The spokesman is Aviv Tzidon, research was conducted at Bar-Ilan University in Tel-Aviv, Israel. The research head was Erik Khasin.
It "sounds like" this small economy car uses a small conventional Lithium battery as a load-leveler, and the lithium pack is re-charged from an aluminum-air reactor as you drive. It also "sounds like" the reaction consumes water and the aluminum plates, he's claiming roughly 1,000-mile range with the water and aluminum plate-stack full.
Each individual claim can be found in proven lab results in various places. Ford didn't invent the assembly line, the car, or the gasoline engine, but he sure sold a lot of Model-Ts.
The aluminum is consumed in the process, and although the byproduct can be recycled, they are also developing a zinc-air reactor that can be recharged overnight.
http://www.phinergy.com/
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/a-ca...re-s-how-it-works-1AUvv55XQSOzuVdas2S82Q.html
Popstar
100 mW
Sorry for making this my first post on ES, as I have learned so many new things on the forum about motors and batteries for 10 months, but this subject is close to my profession and also some of my pet peeves: real science with potential, that is easily mistaken as a magic cure or a hoax.
The "Aluminum-Air" system is an inherently high energy potential one as any high school chem potential chart will say. We think as lithium as reactive because of the way it burns with exposure to air, but in fact Aluminum reacts in a similar way. The thing that keeps it from "burning" is the same thing that keeps it from rusting like Iron. When an Aluminum-oxide layer forms on Aluminium it forms a "passivating" impervious seal to protect the Al below from the O2; and hence the reaction stops. Stainless steel uses cobalt to achieve the same result I believe, while true iron has a porous FeOx that allows the slow reaction to continue.
The only reason I am saying this is that Aluminum (extracted from Al2O2 through electrical methods from either fossil fuel or hyroelettric) is indeed a great way to store energy if you can release that energy in a useful way. A rechargable battery needs to reverse that reaction. A professor I used to interface with once discovered that if Aluminum was mixed with Gallium, that the passivating oxide didn't form to prevent the continuous reaction with water/O2; hence his idea to use recycled Al as a hydrogen source for hydrogen fuel cells: https://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html (And by the way, yes he has an eyepatch, and no it was not a result of him rinsing with water a dirty ampule from an AlGaAs {Aluminum-Gallium Arsenide} experiment where the As evaporated away. That was the first rumor I heard after I met him.) That discovery was great, but it was hurt by the fact that pseudo-science people thought he was getting energy from the water and not the aluminum itself.
As the website linked by spinningmagnets says, their technology is a one shot use of aluminum. It can be recycled, but not recharged inside the battery. Go up to the "gas station" and fill up on Aluminum. They say that Zinc-Air can be made rechargeable, and I look forward to the electrode nanostructure that would allow that or with using Al.
Just remember, it is energy that is coming back from the extraction of Al/Zn from the mined ore. The energy does not come from water, and more sadly, it is not very easily reversible (= rechargeable with same state / electrode structure).
- Popstar
The "Aluminum-Air" system is an inherently high energy potential one as any high school chem potential chart will say. We think as lithium as reactive because of the way it burns with exposure to air, but in fact Aluminum reacts in a similar way. The thing that keeps it from "burning" is the same thing that keeps it from rusting like Iron. When an Aluminum-oxide layer forms on Aluminium it forms a "passivating" impervious seal to protect the Al below from the O2; and hence the reaction stops. Stainless steel uses cobalt to achieve the same result I believe, while true iron has a porous FeOx that allows the slow reaction to continue.
The only reason I am saying this is that Aluminum (extracted from Al2O2 through electrical methods from either fossil fuel or hyroelettric) is indeed a great way to store energy if you can release that energy in a useful way. A rechargable battery needs to reverse that reaction. A professor I used to interface with once discovered that if Aluminum was mixed with Gallium, that the passivating oxide didn't form to prevent the continuous reaction with water/O2; hence his idea to use recycled Al as a hydrogen source for hydrogen fuel cells: https://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html (And by the way, yes he has an eyepatch, and no it was not a result of him rinsing with water a dirty ampule from an AlGaAs {Aluminum-Gallium Arsenide} experiment where the As evaporated away. That was the first rumor I heard after I met him.) That discovery was great, but it was hurt by the fact that pseudo-science people thought he was getting energy from the water and not the aluminum itself.
As the website linked by spinningmagnets says, their technology is a one shot use of aluminum. It can be recycled, but not recharged inside the battery. Go up to the "gas station" and fill up on Aluminum. They say that Zinc-Air can be made rechargeable, and I look forward to the electrode nanostructure that would allow that or with using Al.
Just remember, it is energy that is coming back from the extraction of Al/Zn from the mined ore. The energy does not come from water, and more sadly, it is not very easily reversible (= rechargeable with same state / electrode structure).
- Popstar
bowlofsalad
100 kW
Very very interesting, extremely exciting. It seems perfectly logical, gallium prevents the oxidization of aluminum. An interesting note. I've spent some time welding aluminum. They call it the three C's of welding, clean clean clean. Welding metals such as aluminum require an inert gas to surround the immediate location of the weld in order to prevent the extremely heated area from becoming extremely rusted (and pretty close to impossible to weld). Gallium sounds like an excellent solution to this problem for a non-welding situation. Really exciting. I think I have read about some of this concerning the zinc battery a few years back. Most of the news I hear about big and great up coming batteries is something I usually brush off my shoulder as insignificant. Lithium air, zinc, aluminum, graphene and many other kinds of innovative and exciting batteries seem to be on the horizon. I am eager to see some of these come to light. I have to believe that there could be great potential in crowd funding various projects, if nothing else, I am sure you could get a great number of pre-orders for a proven technology to help accelerate research and production and such.
Popstar
100 mW
In the Ga-Al alloy case I mentioned, the Ga doesn't prevent the Al2O3 from forming (AKA oxidation of aluminum), but instead, prevents it from forming the oxygen impervious layer and therefore accelerates Aluminum oxidation . Hence you can continue to react water with Al to form H2 (= fuel cell fuel) and Al2O3/AlxOHy (recyclable product). In the Al welding situation with inert gas Bowl of Salad mentioned, yes, cleanliness is key, and welding metal to metal is much better than metal/insulating oxide/metal bonding. Anodized Aluminum has a thick Al2O3 layer bulit up on it through eletroplating, hence it is very nonreactive material but a terrible conductor (most oxides are insulators).
-Popstar
-Popstar
megacycle
100 kW
When these batteries arrive, got a solution to power them
but anyone working on a charger thats not as big as a car :wink:
but anyone working on a charger thats not as big as a car :wink:
SniperGaulois
10 kW
seeing how much money and research has been thrown at battery technology lately, it's about time that they should be making batteries twice as efficient!
the following article quotes 204 mah/g = 204ah/kg... comments please?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130325125607.htm
the following article quotes 204 mah/g = 204ah/kg... comments please?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130325125607.htm