Tidal Force : "The Long Ranger"

[chroot]

That's why lila and Lyen, They told me that I will need teflon installation on motor hub's phase wires to handle the high ampere
and high temperature heat.

I am thinking upgrade my 9c 9x7 motor by adding the teflon on the phase wires to allow me push higher ampere. Maybe, I
am thinking build another ebike with the X5304 at 100v LiPo.

 

[John in CR]

Better turn that phase current down until you get better phase wires installed. You're very lucky they didn't short and blow the controller with that much melting. Oh, and shorten that block time too.

 

[litespeed]

I gotta admit my heart sunk. Time slowed down. My heart started beating fast. I was hoping it was something simple.I instantly felt my wallet get lighter. All of the connectors looked fine at a glance but if you look closer the connectors were sunkern/melted into their housing. Im certainly thinking of soldering with no disconnects. its just a pain in the ass to redo connections over and over again. if you need to take the controller off the bike for some reason. I need to do phase wire upgrade anyways. I just dont wanna buy the teflon or silicone wire. I accept scrap donations. =P

Im also having this problem with the wires coming out of my controller. When I recrimped my connectors these wires were fused together. I had to peel them apart like twizzlers. I just cut all of mine off shorter past the damaged section and recrimped new ends. None of my other phase wires have this melting insulation issue. The yellow connector shows how my connector failed. The Anderson contact sunk into the connector which pulls it away from the contact thats plugged into it.

As a temporary solution im going to get some heat shrink and cover the wires coming out of the controller so they dont fuse together. I also left the wires out in the open instead of bundled in the Crystalyte velco sleeve I have.

Since I'm too lazy to go back through the whole thread, What was the amperage you were pushing? I'm pretty sure that Anderson's need to be crimped but I would recommend soldering them also. A loose connection of any sort will cause heat and as you found out we don't want that. I would double check that your connectors are tight while connected and not tarnished from getting wet at some point. I would recommend some 5mm bullet connectors if your pulling more than 30 amps through these Anderson connectors. You will not get any heat from them.....I guarantee that!

I have a BMC from Ilia about a week old.....I'm going to check my connectors right now. I'm on 75 volts and 20 amps and under.

Tom

 

[chroot]

Your will be fine without burn the phase wires at 20A. Unless you are going way over 65A - Sure you need upgrade teflon
on the phase wires.

Make sense the BMC from Ilia. He always put limit ampere on geared hub motor. The X5 motor is an direct drive and they
can take brutal high ampere through the phase wire with the teflon installed.

I'm on 75 volts and 20 amps and under.

 

[icecube57]

OMG... I just fallen in love!!!!!

Ok when I first got the 5303 I tested it on my old controller at 88v and 45A. I went poof in 3.5 seconds but it was heavily abused. Ive since then avoided it for the safety of my bike and its components. Today I woke up and decided to tune my controller for 66v operation... I then thought what the heck let me go to 100v just for one cycle. I had already taken the surface charge off the pack from test riding it at 44v after I put everything back together from a recent motor upgrade. I hopped on and it has a jolt that will throw you off the bike if you arent used to it. I know my bike could make it up the hill on my street without assistance at 66v... but just barely. I went around the culdesac at the end of the street and gave it all i got. I was pulling 4800w and she was like RAWR!!!!.... and it was like wooohhhhoooo! It zipped up the hill and she said..... (Russion Accent) What is this hill you speak of?.... I assume that was supposed to be a challenge... I spit on it!. Ofcourse my 4 6s lipos were giving me the finger probably. Didnt sag below 92v. Didnt blow any fuses. I was actually surprised that it didnt feel anemic. I turned my phase current down from 120A down to 95. I left my battery current at 36A..Which gives me 45-50A on the CA.

The past few days I tore my bike down for some upgrades. I went to frys thinking they had teflon wire... the only had this POS PVC. So I bought some 12G PVC I though I could buy it and wrap it in shrink wrap but the insulation and the shrink wrap made the wires to thick. So I ended up going bareback with the stock insulation on the PVC. The 12G wire was indeed 12g wires. The original Crystalyte wires are 13G but closer to 14G so it was only a very minute improvement... dozen or two strands at best.

I have a 100w iron that wasnt doing sheit to help me solder the new phase wires to the windings. I put on my afro ingenuity hat and went to the local home supply. I found these copper lugs that take up to 10G wire. They are normally used in breaker boxes. I tinned the phase wires and i tinned the wires on the stator. They have a screw that you tighten that clamps the wires into the lugs.I the put a bolt through the eyelet on the lugs and put a lock washer in and put the other lug thats on the new phase wires on and another lock washer and a nylon nut. This was a bit bulky but it was a fool proof solid connection. I shrink wrapped it twice. I also used some card stock and made paper tubes that slided over the shrink wrap so there is no way its going to short or chaff on anything. I zip tied everything into the recess portion of the stator.

The wires still ran warm at 44v with the phase current set at 120A. When I turned it down to 95 and ran 100v with 4800w of power. They were barely luke warm alot cooler than they have ever been. One thing Ive noticed even though i rode the motor hard during the test at 100v this morning... the motor really didnt warm up. Which to me suggest that the X5 motor has a low current saturation point like the 9C and that pumping excess phase current just creates heat with marginal increase in power.... or that its very inefficient at lower voltages. Or the phase wires was wicking/conduction the heat from the windings down the phase wires make the wires hot. Shrugs...

I ran the numbers through the simulator just now and it appears at higher voltages the motor does run more efficient. In this case between on a 15% grade which is close to what the hill on my street is... from 44v to 66v there is a 25% improvement from 54% to 65% EFF in efficiency and from 44v to 88v there is a 44% improvement from 54% to 70% EFF So higher voltages even on high turn motors does help with efficiency because of the higher avaliable torque. It was my misconception that if you throw current into high turn motors they suck up current and it goes into the void as heat. But if you up the voltage the same still applies but much less of you watts goes towards heat and more go towards making kinetic energy.

 

[FMB42]

Thanks for the info icecube.

Here's a link to "Electric Motors for Model Aircraft" that you might find interesting:

http://adamone.rchomepage.com/guide5.htm

Excerpt from the above web page:

Efficiency is a measure of how much of the Input Power (the power that the battery
delivers to the motor) is actually used to turn the propeller (Output Power) and how
much is wasted as heat.
A motor with higher efficiency delivers more power to the prop, and wastes less.

Assuming the same current, increasing the voltage increases the motor efficiency
until the RPM limit is reached above which the efficiency falls.

 

[icecube57]

I was off today and I thought the mail man was going to bring me my sheit. He didnt. I already made a 6s 4to1 balance cable for one of my medics when I only had for packs. I used to charge 4 packs in parallel and balanced them in parallel. Since I would have 9 packs I needed to make a 6s 5 to 1 balance cable to use with my second battey medic.

I also made cables to parallel the discharge leads for the 3 sub packs. My packs are going to be split up into (3) 22.2v 15AH packs. Thats why I have three connectors pictured. I will series when discharging and parallel them to the 3 outputs on my Meanwell. Since they will all be parallel while charging I can hook up my medics every few charges and balance. An empty pack should take about 3 hours to charge. Im thinking about buy another meanwell to help with the bulk charging at full pack voltage for every day uses and use one meanwell when Im balance charging all packs in parallel at 22v every 20 cycles or so.

 

[icecube57]

I got my lipos in. I grouped them in 3 packs with 3 in parallel. For a 66v 15Ah pack. My parallel harness for the discharge leads and balance connector works beautifully. Ill be ready for a maiden voyage in under an hour after I balance this last pack

 

[icecube57]

A few notes or opinions on my new packs. The zippy packs have 12G wire. This worked out in my favor cause I was out of 45A Andersons. I figured each pack would prob see 20-25A max so I used the 30A Andersons. The size of the packs seems smaller than the turnigy packs and also seem slightly heavier. All my packs arrived in a beat up box. Thank you customs. They were sorrily wrapped in a thin foam wrapping and then wrapped in bubble wrap. They were loose in the box with a few of those air cushion bags. my cell voltages on all of my packs were around 3.87-3.89v according to my battery medic. I paralleled them together and put them on the charger with a battery medic. I had some stubborn cell groups that were .02v lower than the rest. I let it sit on the charger for a few hours and it got better. They are pretty balanced. Im going to do an overnight charge/balance to be positive everything is on the same level. Im charging to 4.2v. Yeah Yeah I know shoot me.

I took the pack out for a spin on my bike. Me likey!. The pack is performing very well. Gobbling up AH faster than expected. I have an wh consumption of about 80wh a mile WOT. As to be expected. I started out at 75.6v And I drained 2AH out of my 15AH pack. I was running the pack pretty hard zipping up and down my street tackling the infamous hill. My CA say Im peaking at 81A.... through a 40A fuse =P with 45-50A sustained amps. The voltage did sag to about 69v. The zippys dont seem to be as stiff as the turnigy packs were. But I assume the sag was surface charge so to speak. I made the parallel discharge harness but i didnt like how loose/stressed a single anderson was when putting the packs into series. I made another harness to series the packs. Its oriented that I can put any pack in any spot. But I have a special green plug thats designated to go to the controller. Its pretty much idiot proof. I dont like the mess of wires that I have for charging and balancing. I hope that once the packs are balanced thoroughly I only have to check it every blue moon to make sure the pack is still balance. I can spot check each individual pack with my medic to make sure everything is alright. I havent done any speed tests. But im sure im solidly in the low to mid 40s The acceleration is pretty good off the line. The regen braking did work with it being set at 75v. It feels weaker that at 44v. Still getting the same amount of regen wattage but not amperage. Hill climbing is pretty good. It crests my 15-20% grade hill doing about 12-14mph with no input. My controller is pulling about 3800w from the battery under peak load. Controller is obviously getting warm. The phase wires are cooler than at 44v but warmer than at 88v. The phase wire insulation feels fine. Connectors feel barely luke warm since I upped the voltage and turned the phase current down. Despite me putting 1000 more watts through them. Seems like Im getting the opposite affect that Im expecting. I think they will hold the punishiment Im going to give it. Teflon upgrade is still in the future when i deem in necessary.

I will def have fun tommorrow when I get off work!

 

[chroot]

Are you crazy for being placed charging inside the house even worse on the carpet floor. YIKKKKES

Please put in the cement floor or clay potted where you can place the batteries inside in case. I mean less
chance damage to your house property.

 

[icecube57]

Yeah I know. The label on the pack.. concrete floor 10 feet away from flammable objects. Its kinda jacked up. We supposed to keep watch but we supposed to pretty much charge out of site. I was balancing the pack at the time. It finally got perfectly balanced after a few hours.I normally charge in my garage but it has very wide temp swings. 50s or whatever the low is at night to 90s during the day. It affects the finish charging voltage of my supply enough to where I dont want to leave it unattended. Inside its stable. I check on the packs every 15 min if I charge in the house. My wife hates me for it cause Im always getting up to check on that damn bike and those stupid batteries. I suppose its a nice time to get a lipo charging bag.

 

[icecube57]

I went out on a ride this afternoon. I was cycling my pack. I didnt hit it across the head with a full discharge but I molested it enough to let it know who's its daddy. I did 12AH out of 15AH. Thats an 80% DOD. I came home and checked all the packs with my medic individually. This They all read the same voltge of 3.74v at cell level. all means the connections are fine and the pack is discharging evenly. No strays or stragglers.

Ride Data
Starting voltage 75.9v
32.89 miles
12.29AH
Ending Voltage 67.1
866.98wh
26.1wh/mi
34.7mph Max Speed ( Wasnt Pushing It That Hard)
19.6mph Avg Speed
1hr 38min Ride Time
-16.8 Regen
74.86A Max
64.7v Min

I met an awesome Lycra today. He was finishing a 100mile ride. He cought up with me doing 20 and maintained a solid 22-23. I was trying to draft behind him. The amazing part is I could keep up with him pedaling but his endurance was retarded for the speeds we were rolling. At one point we were doing 28mph and my bike isnt geared that high so i just basically had to ride behind him until he dropped into the low 20s. I know I cant stack up to anywhere near his fitness level but he gave me a run for my money... electric bike or not.

 

[Hyena]

The whole lipo danger thing is so blown out of proportion it isnt funny. Watch Luke's destructive videos to show how these new generation lipos really go with abuse. I recreated most of his tests myself when moving house a few weeks ago and decided it wasnt worth keeping the few stray cells I had from dead packs. I stabbed them with a screw driver, slashed them with a blade, smashed them wiht a hammer in the vice and in the end threw them in a bucket of water. Nothing. The slightest of sparks when I cut through the layers with a razor blade but no more than shorting out a AA battery.

Someone throw some money at me and I'll make a video charging a pack in my underpants in my sleep

"is that an 8S lipo pack in your pants or are you just happy to see me ? " :lol:

 

[litespeed]

I went out on a ride this afternoon. I was cycling my pack. I didnt hit it across the head with a full discharge but I molested it enough to let it know who's its daddy. I did 12AH out of 15AH. Thats an 80% DOD. I came home and checked all the packs with my medic individually. This They all read the same voltge of 3.74v at cell level. all means the connections are fine and the pack is discharging evenly. No strays or stragglers.

Ride Data
Starting voltage 75.9v
32.89 miles
12.29AH
Ending Voltage 67.1
866.98wh
26.1wh/mi
34.7mph Max Speed ( Wasnt Pushing It That Hard)
19.6mph Avg Speed
1hr 38min Ride Time
-16.8 Regen
74.86A Max
64.7v Min

I met an awesome Lycra today. He was finishing a 100mile ride. He cought up with me doing 20 and maintained a solid 22-23. I was trying to draft behind him. The amazing part is I could keep up with him pedaling but his endurance was retarded for the speeds we were rolling. At one point we were doing 28mph and my bike isnt geared that high so i just basically had to ride behind him until he dropped into the low 20s. I know I cant stack up to anywhere near his fitness level but he gave me a run for my money... electric bike or not.

So what's your top speed on this with no peddling? I'm looking for my next build. My BMC 600 watt S is pushing my 6' 4" 215 lbs butt sitting upright on my Specialized Crossroads Hybrid Extra large bike to 33.8 mph on a full charge. I'm running 18s lipo 15 amp also. If I give a small tug to the handle bars I can ride a wheelie about 30 feet but the lipo's in the bag on the rack really make it hard to balance. I want something faster with more power. I'd like to run 24s3p or maybe even 24s4p.

Tom

Tom

 

[icecube57]

45mph in the flats easily... on a full charge.
Speed and range data for me. The numbers are padded for safety
16mph-54 miles unassisted 84 miles assisted
18mph-50 miles unassisted 72 miles assisted
20mph-47 miles unassisted 64 miles assisted
22mph-41 miles unassisted 52 miles assisted
25mph 35 miles unassisted
28mph 30 miles unassisted
44mph 14 miles unassisted =P

Since i have the 120% enabled there is a 3-4mph gain past the last speed.

 

[litespeed]

That is a lot faster and farther than I would have thought. That's cool for you.

Mine will prolly only do 22 to 24 miles unassisted but that is full throttle starts. I haven't tried slower speeds and that was balls to the walls throttle. I have my CA set at 20 amps max too. I guess those direct drives are really that much more efficient.

Tom

 

[icecube57]

I went out for a regular ride yesterday. I eneded up doing alot more than I expected. Its getting dark pretty early here. I hit the trail around 7pm. I rode out about 8 miles and then took surface streets back to really test the bike.. motor...wiring... and battery pack on the way back. What an experience. The constant torque is what blew me away. No matter what speed I was at it was always there. The acceleration seems agressive but little soft on the start. I could fix that with more amps but not on this controller. I pedal on launches to compensate. After I get into the 20s I stop pedaling cause I cant assist. I was riding in the street like a motorcycle and was comfortable doing. Not the side of the road hugging the white line. I was able to ride in the middle of the land and do a solid 45mph. The cars respected me didnt try to pass. Im sure my take off wasnt impressive but being able to maintain 45mph probably had them thinking wtf. And where can I get one. I had my Ebikes.ca rear tail light blinking.. My Lumenator was on. Had my full face helmet. Its getting cold here.The bike is stable when you are concentrating. When taking you hands of the handle bar to signal is a bit scary. It has a tank slap issues past 18-20mph. As long as both hands are on the handle bars its rides smooth all the way up to 45. So i found an trail inlet a few miles back up the road and hopped back on. Its almost pitch black and no one is on the trail but me. All of a sudden I see a flashing red light on the path. Of course i put the pedal to the metal and caught up with them. It was a poor cyclist that doesnt ride often and was caught 9 miles away from their car and all that had was the sorry front and rear tail light set. I decided i woud escort them all the way back to their car. One thing about having a large pack is that you dont worry about range anymore. I was about 60% through my pack which was plent of range for me to do what I had to do for this guy and then some. I escoreted him back help him load up and went 5 miles back to where my car was. And that complete my ride. Ended up doing 35 miles. 10 were 30mph + the rest was in the 20s. I ended up blowing through 90% of my pack. Peaked at 48mph. Avg 22. 80A. Peak 22A Regen Current. Low voltage 63v.

I check my packs with my medic when I got home. My new zippy packs was pretty much balanced with 0.01v deviation. My older zippy packs were pretty scattered. After being on the charger for 5 min they level out and all ended charge perfectly at 4.2v. The performace never dropped. The lipo delivered all their power without complaining. Even up to the very end before the cliff. I didnt reach the cliff on my ride but 14.5AH out of 15 I was close. The zippys seem to have more capacity than the Turnigy. Thats why Im kinda scare to parallel them at the cell and pack level while discharging. They zippy packs were sitting higher than the turnigy but the overall parallel pack voltage was the same. I have on parallel pack that has two zippys and one turnigy in parallel. I have to keep my eye on that one until I get cell level alarms.

 

[LSjr]

Hi, I am trying to find other Tidal Force owners to see if anyone can help me find a derailluer hanger for a S750.

Any help would be appreciated.

LSjr

 

[litespeed]

Ended up doing 35 miles. 10 were 30mph + the rest was in the 20s. I ended up blowing through 90% of my pack. Peaked at 48mph. Avg 22. 80A. Peak 22A Regen Current. Low voltage 63v.

I check my packs with my medic when I got home. My new zippy packs was pretty much balanced with 0.01v deviation. My older zippy packs were pretty scattered. After being on the charger for 5 min they level out and all ended charge perfectly at 4.2v. The performace never dropped. The lipo delivered all their power without complaining. Even up to the very end before the cliff. I didnt reach the cliff on my ride but 14.5AH out of 15 I was close. The zippys seem to have more capacity than the Turnigy. Thats why Im kinda scare to parallel them at the cell and pack level while discharging. They zippy packs were sitting higher than the turnigy but the overall parallel pack voltage was the same. I have on parallel pack that has two zippys and one turnigy in parallel. I have to keep my eye on that one until I get cell level alarms.

You wrote that you used 14.5 ah out of 15? That is crazy. I've never used more than 80% except only a few times by accident on my R/C stuff. I find that slower/lower discharges it's harder to pull full amps out of the packs where is higher discharge rates use full capacity. My R/C stuff has always been high amp draw but if I take it easy on the bike I get to 3.7 per cell at about 65% capacity or 80% at the same voltage on high capacity discharge. Almost like flight a time limit. I know with a123's you have to over gear to reach their full potential. I think lipo's may need the same. On a similar ride as you describe above I would use about 10 amps with my peak speed being 10 mph under yours. Makes me think I need to try a direct drive at some point.

On regeneration you showed 22a but what actually went back into the pack meaning how much does this increase your range. I thought I read somewhere that it's less than 5% if you do a lot of stop and go. I guess anything that is free energy is free energy I was just curious of what the actual benefits are.

Tom

 

[icecube57]

Well when you look at the avg c rate being placed on the packs vs what they are capeable. I dont think im pushing them hard at all. Even with full discharge cycles to 3.3v. If i get the bare minimum 300cycles. Im happy even with 150. That would be 2-3 years use. Even at that point.. We are talking reduced capacity to 70-80%. I can live with that. But before I even get to that point I probably would get more lipo to increase my packs size and range. I still got room somewhere on the bike to fit more lipo. As this build evolves I barely do 4-5C constant and maybe 7-8 peak on 25C pack. I find it weird that the harder you push yours you can get full capacity but the less you push it you cant get full capacity. Seems like it should be the opposite. If i take it easy on these packs and pull about 0.5C I can get .5Ah past their rating. But if i push hard im normally .2Ah shy. I prob could have went more but it was dark and my ride was pretty much over. Ive been as high as .5AH with the cells still over 3.3v. I said i discharged 14.5AH out of 15. But there was probably another .6-.7Ah AH still on tap. I believe in exercising my packs =P. I dont go on full discharges all the time. Im normally hopping on the trail for 20-30 miles which should use about 6-8Ah. But If I find a new playground oh you better believe im going to play and have fun. Ive yet to unleash the true potential of this build. I may go up to 24s 3p. Im a wh/Ah whore for distance more than speed. Id rather go to 18s 4 p.

I regen .4Ah during that ride. But not alot of stop and go. I got most of the regen when I was on the road slowing down to red lights. But thats a pretty high peak I had especially for the voltage. Its hard to get regen amps up at high voltages. But translation to actual range gained. Prob about 2 miles at 20mph not alot. It was about 2%. At 44v i can get double the regen in urban situations. It would be alot stronger and useful.

 

[icecube57]

I had a wipeout today. I lost traction on some construction gravel while making a turn. I was not going fast. I revcovered from the fall very quickly to get my bike out the road. Minor cosmetic damage. to the bike. Bruised my hand. I had some road rash on my arm. I had an episode of humiliation when I fell.( Does anyone remeber the game Killer instinct where you humiliate the other player if they didnt land a hit the entire fight) Thats the music I had playing in my mind at this upcoming momment. Also do you remember that clip in the movie Carrie (There all going to Laugh at You) An oncoming car with some young guys saw the wipeout and all they did was laugh. Didnt ask If I was ok. They drove off. I have a nice highlight video of my ride and the fall coming up within the hour.

 

[icecube57]

[youtube]K27wpKPfBGg[/youtube]

 

[GCinDC]

oh man. serious bummer. i'm sure that hurt. heal up and take it easy, icecube.

PS. great video of it, nonetheless...

 

[John in CR]

Apparently you fell well, because the gravel could have done a lot more skin damage. Glad you're ok, and thanks for sharing video of it.

 

[icecube57]

In the video it looks like the front wheel lost traction and slipped from under me as I leaned into the turn. Since the bike was already at an extreme angle pretty much riding on the outer edge of the slick tread the rest of the bike l fell and slided away from me in the same fashion the same fashion. I was very lucky. My helmet paid for itself that day. I cracked the visor part but Its still usable. My hand and elbow is sore as hell.